Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Kaeko]

I iwould probably just add another column for moves with enmity changing effects like Dirge/Sirvente, Sentinel, Hydro Shot, etc. Just maybe add a little link column where I could explain how each things works.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Hydro Shot isn't like dirge/sirvente or sentinel. The enmity down is an instant additional effect.

[Kaeko]

What would be the easiest mob that resists Sleep? Really need to test the sleep moves out.

[Suiram]

Dark Elementals in Tavnazian region? Unless you need both light and dark based sleep resists. Do the greater birds in altep/miserieux resist sleep? Alternatively you could have a 3rd party DoT a mob, then it just needs to be high enough to not die from the DoT. What exactly remains to be tested for sleep, VE?

[Kionu]

Or skeleton-type mobs, in gusgen or wherever. Not sure about lullaby though...

[Kaeko]

Dark Elementals in Tavnazian region? Unless you need both light and dark based sleep resists. Do the greater birds in altep/miserieux resist sleep? Alternatively you could have a 3rd party DoT a mob, then it just needs to be high enough to not die from the DoT. What exactly remains to be tested for sleep, VE?

We need the VE numbers. I guess we could give it Dia and try that first.

[shaddix]

i will try to do some test on damage taken CE loss soon, won't be able to get to it til next week but i am dying for this info

[Kayberry]

Since Thief has been given a lot of hate-transferring abilities that don't themselves generate a significant amount of CE or VE from their use, the question has to be asked as to what type of hate is transferred to/from the thief from their use.
- Does Trick Attack generate only CE for the target, or only VE for the target?
- Test situation: Player 1 pulls, lets VE depreciate. Player 2 and 3 establish 1CE. Player 2 lands Trick Attack on Player 3 and the monster turns to face Player 3. If monster turns back to Player 1 after time, hate transferred is VE. If monster remains facing Player 3, hate transferred is CE.

- Does Accomplice/Collaborator transfer both CE and VE values to the Thief, or does a conversion to solely CE or solely VE take place?
- Test situation: Player 1 pulls with Provoke (201 CE, ~2700 VE). Player 2 establishes 1CE, followed by Accomporator on Player 1. (Player 1 loses more VE than CE). If hate shifts to Player 2 after some time, hate from Accomporator was converted to CE. If hate does not shift after VE fully decays, Player 2 generates 151CE. If attention is stolen at this point, both CE and VE are transferred. If attention is not stolen by Player 2, hate transferred was converted to VE.

You can already see the implications of the results - if a Thief generates only VE for Trick Attack, the enmity will depreciate and therefore a need to reapply it will exist, supporting the concept of maintaining a higher hate level with repeated application. If it generates pure CE it only exists to speed up the process of capping and recapping CE after the target takes damage, so it's effectiveness would be diminished once the CE cap is reached. As for Accomporator, generating greater CE for the thief improves the likelihood of being able to hold hate under a pseudo-tanking situation, while VE would effectively limit the Thief to being a hate sink. Knowing how hate is transferred to the Thief would allow better choices for Accomporator use for the situation at hand.

[Capo]

Or skeleton-type mobs, in gusgen or wherever. Not sure about lullaby though...

aerns perhaps

[shoya]

I know that + enmity gear doesn't do anything to those -X CE moves. I'm not sure what - enmity gear would do though. I'll look into it.

Ran a few more tests regarding accomplice that I'll probably blog more formally later. Basically on it's own the move grants 0 CE and 0 VE. Obviously you get half of each type from the target. The issue we tested was the range it worked out. We found that Accomplice does not do anything unless the user (THF) is roughly 20' or less from mobs the player target has hate on.

The target of accomplice can be greater than 20' away from the mob you want to relieve hate from, but the user must be 20'ish or less. The precise range is not 20', but something like 21ish. I suspect it's really 20' + the range of the user's body.

Also, for those interested in PUP moves and how the automaton hate works... the research has been completed by a JP player who made a video about his findings.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm2440476

Hilarious video... it's 25 minutes long and plays out like a PBS program. It's in JP and you need a niconico account to view it though (which is free to setup). I glanced at it but didn't pick up a lot of finer details. I did see something like Automaton cures give 0 hate to the automaton though. Other stuff about attachments and stuff as well. If you're a PUP and care about this hate stuff, I think it's a great view if you can understand JP. He actually uses the info to then solo Hakutaku in the video as well. Very impressive and well made video.

EDIT: actually, if anyone would be kind enough, would someone be willing to translate his PUP findings for me? My Japanese isn't nearly good enough to make a real accurate translation.

Anyone has a copy of this video by chance? The link no longer works ; ; I registered only to see the message

?????????????????????

which I dont understand exactly, but seems to say the video's no longer there...

[Kaeko]

Part 7 is up now...

http://kanican.livejournal.com/28541.html

If you don't want the details I'll spell it out for you here...

Accomplice and Collaborator only work if the user (THF) is 20.6' or less from the mob. The player it is being used on and his distance from the mob are irrelevant.

It is possible to have the person w/o the highest TE be the mob target. This is because TE storage and "Hate List" should be looked at as 2 separate things. Logging off will remove yourself from the "Hate List", but not reset your TE storage.

If you zone with hate, your TE resets. You are taken off the "hate list" as well.

If you zone without hate, your TE does not reset. You are still taken off the "hate list".

If you zone into the same zone (eg. Teleport Mea when you're in Tahrongi already), your TE is not reset and you remain on the "hate list" upon moving. It is as if you just warped across the map - the mob will just keep chasing you across map after Teleport.

[eva00r]

Your new HC model is fully supported, easily prove by any PUP out there.

Deactivation will take your doll out of the hate list but does not reset TE.
Upon re-activation, your doll will be summoned with full hp, without hate but TE is still there.

If your doll overaggro by curing you too much and you deactivates/reactivates it within a few seconds, your doll will lose hate but if your doll does an action, your doll will get the hate back.

And now I believe that the "fatigue" from "Elemental Manuever" does not reset upon deactivation/reactivation. Also, uses an "Activate" command will increase this "fatigue".

[Darkwill]

Part 7 is up now...

http://kanican.livejournal.com/28541.html

If you don't want the details I'll spell it out for you here...

Accomplice and Collaborator only work if the user (THF) is 20.6' or less from the mob. The player it is being used on and his distance from the mob are irrelevant.

It is possible to have the person w/o the highest TE be the mob target. This is because TE storage and "Hate List" should be looked at as 2 separate things. Logging off will remove yourself from the "Hate List", but not reset your TE storage.

If you zone with hate, your TE resets. You are taken off the "hate list" as well.

If you zone without hate, your TE does not reset. You are still taken off the "hate list".

If you zone into the same zone (eg. Teleport Mea when you're in Tahrongi already), your TE is not reset and you remain on the "hate list" upon moving. It is as if you just warped across the map - the mob will just keep chasing you across map after Teleport.

Another thanks for all this work.

[shirak]

I'd love to see some enmity testing done for Drg Jump.

Specifically with and without Drachen Greaves equipped.

These boots that say "Enhances Jump effects" have never been figured out what they do, or even what Jump effects are. Some current theories are Enmity+, Crit+, Cratio+, Def down+, TPdown+. It would be nice if we could eliminate enmity from that list, and also, if a Jump is going to produce high hate results apart from the damage done and then what the boots effect on that might be.

Would this testing be kindof impossible given that you'd have a damage variant?

Anyways, a mystery that maybe your enmity testing could shed light on.

[Kaeko]

I would have to remove all sources of damage by either fighting something with Stoneskin on or that was immune to physical attacks unless I knew the damage formula. So I don't think I can really pull this test off with ease right now.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Well, in that case I think the next step is to find out how much enmity is gained by damage. It would open the door to a LOT of important things.

[Kaeko]

Well, in that case I think the next step is to find out how much enmity is gained by damage. It would open the door to a LOT of important things.

I'm trying to think of the best way to figure this out because I know it's going to depend on the level of mob you have. What most people actually want to know is how it affects mobs 75+, which are hard to test with because they will do damage in almost any circumstance, which messes with the count.

Couple ideas I thought of was to test on Chigeos + phalanx2 or SCH phalanxga, or using Goblin Footprint (but I think you can get in trouble if you get GM'd the GM is retarded).

[Maxxthepenguin]

Well, in that case I think the next step is to find out how much enmity is gained by damage. It would open the door to a LOT of important things.

I'm trying to think of the best way to figure this out because I know it's going to depend on the level of mob you have. What most people actually want to know is how it affects mobs 75+, which are hard to test with because they will do damage in almost any circumstance, which messes with the count.

Couple ideas I thought of was to test on Chigeos + phalanx2 or SCH phalanxga, or using Goblin Footprint (but I think you can get in trouble if you get GM'd the GM is retarded).

I doubt anyone will about the footprint care when it's not a NM.

Also, have we confirmed that the equations vary 1-75? And why not collect less controlled, imperfect data? It wont be as precise but we can get some good idea of what's going on and make what tests we need to do more specific.

If this is too hard, we can test enmity gained by healing first, that is easily controllable.

[Kaeko]

Well, in that case I think the next step is to find out how much enmity is gained by damage. It would open the door to a LOT of important things.

I'm trying to think of the best way to figure this out because I know it's going to depend on the level of mob you have. What most people actually want to know is how it affects mobs 75+, which are hard to test with because they will do damage in almost any circumstance, which messes with the count.

Couple ideas I thought of was to test on Chigeos + phalanx2 or SCH phalanxga, or using Goblin Footprint (but I think you can get in trouble if you get GM'd the GM is retarded).

I doubt anyone will about the footprint care when it's not a NM.

Also, have we confirmed that the equations vary 1-75? And why not collect less controlled, imperfect data? It wont be as precise but we can get some good idea of what's going on and make what tests we need to do more specific.

If this is too hard, we can test enmity gained by healing first, that is easily controllable.

Healing is much easier - that's the one I would do first, but I want to focus on the general hate mechanics (doing the whole deal with the hate list counter thing atm) anf completing the list of non-cure/damage actions.

I know for a fact the LVL of the target matters. Intuitively you know this has to matter as well, since it would be illogical having played the game 1-75 to think 20 damage on a Tiny Mandragora is the same as 20 damage on Fafnir. We've tested it by curing, I think something on one of the testing posts has it tested at LVL40, 70, and 75 and the differences in the multiplier.

[Thitaubian Seraph]

Would it be possible for hate to be based upon dHP% rather than it being based upon level?
It would show a similar relation since as level increases so does HP.

Could try finding two mobs with different HP but the same level, problem would be doing the same amount of damage to both to compare hate values. Perhaps a blu with 1000 needles, or breath damage, or spirits within, something unmodified by mob stats.

We would also run into precision issues, because our smallest count is 1%hp, unless we can predetermine mob hp, or kill with a parser running to determine HP after the fact. With that, one would have to be careful of only using parse-able damage though.

Just another possibility I guess. Anyone have a reason why this is not plausible?