Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Freysi]

If the person at the top of the list zones he'll get a reset. Any ideas on how to try to force a reset when you're not at the top of the hate list? I'm kind of particularly interested in this for another random AV strategy.

As a developer, from a programmatic point of view I don't see how it's possible. It seems like the check to remove from the list only happens under those specific circumstances. So I would focus on forcing those circumstances.

For example having several THFs who's only job is running around and gathering enmity from high-enmity, non-tank jobs, like BLM, using Accomplice. Then have several BLMs who's only job is to watch the THFs, and watch the mob in question. As soon as the THF has gather enough enmity to pull hate, Warp the THF. As a bonus, have the THF set his HP somewhere close so you can repeat this ad infinitum. I'd suggest the THF go /BLM but might get interrupted.

[Lordwafik]

If the person at the top of the list zones he'll get a reset. Any ideas on how to try to force a reset when you're not at the top of the hate list? I'm kind of particularly interested in this for another random AV strategy.

The only thing I can think of is death. Unless that doesn't reset.

[Spekkio]

i was curious if you'd done any research on how mobs who track by scent lose hate completely when you walk through water. i'm pretty confident that i've seen crawlers pulled by ancient goobue and they lose hate as soon as they hit the water line, despite 200 CE and 900 VE being on them at the time. meanwhile, in certain weather, i've had to drag the karakul NM through several puddles to lose it while DoTing it to death (hilariously i might add. i ain't doing it for the kill so i may as well laugh my ass off while i'm doing it.) while with no weather up, the tiniest puddle makes him lose all interest. while i'm not entirely sure how you might apply it for a hate reset, especially against something like AV, we know that mob's tracks by XXXXX properties play SOME role in being able to shed hate. the new information may not be presently relevant to your schemings, but more data gives us more opportunities for coming up with ideas. after all, if we didn't know the CE/VE of cure5, you couldn't have cooked up your last strategy!

[Kaeko]

As far as I can tell, if you are able to shed hate by losing scent tracking or sight tracking, you get your full enmity reset as well. The more interesting cases on that are when you have multiple players involved - does the mob always go to the next highest player on list or just deaggro everyone completely?

I tried a bit of testing on just how to exactly lose tracking but it was proving to be pretty difficult. Not really sure how you could run any controlled testing on that without having to get into multiple trials and things like that.

[aurik]

From the evidence, it seems to me that you only get your hate fully reset if the monster attempts to target you and fails.

Incidentally, unless dying has a particular additional effect, this means if you die while not top of the hate list and reraise immediately, you should still be on the hate list--being dead is just a method of being untargettable by the monster. It also suggests that charmga won't reset your hate if you are lower on the list than someone who did not get charmed.

[Kaeko]

From the evidence, it seems to me that you only get your hate fully reset if the monster attempts to target you and fails.

Incidentally, unless dying has a particular additional effect, this means if you die while not top of the hate list and reraise immediately, you should still be on the hate list--being dead is just a method of being untargettable by the monster. It also suggests that charmga won't reset your hate if you are lower on the list than someone who did not get charmed.

I have encountered some odd cases with dying and not reseting hate. Using Sleepga II in Dynamis Xarc, dying, then immediatley reraising is a good example. When I did this, the mobs I slept would come right after me upon reraise.

[aurik]

Regarding tracking, there was a long-ish post here about a month ago that went into detail about monster tracking

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29515&hilit=deodorize

[ismarc]

I think I've found how to "reset" hate (ie, get a character cleared off the hate list) when the character is not the current target.

I was thinking about this, and trying to understand why logging hate or zoning hate seemed to work at large, long, drawn out fights.

Hypothesis: A character is removed from the hate list when the character would be the primary target but the monster is unable to
(Since looking at the above link, number 1 is needs to be modified)
1) target the character when tracking the character for 25 seconds (I believe it's 25 seconds, the amount of time may be different, but is easily found on worms).
1.m) <apply full set of tracking rules from viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29515&hilit=deodorize >
2) detect the character with any of its tracking methods
3) target the character

To test this, it requires 3 active participants.
Character 1 - Generate large amounts of CE
Character 2 - Generate moderate amounts of CE
Character 3 - Generate minimal CE (a single cast of dispel, etc).

Once all characters are at the desired CE levels, Character 2 performs an action to have higher total enmity than Character 1.
Character 1 zones.
Character 2 zones while the current target.

Character 2 is now cleared off the hate list (enmity reset).

Character 1 zones back in.
Character 1 performs an action on the monster
Character 3 performs an action on the montser

Observe reaction of monster.
Hate constantly on Character 1 - Hate was not reset
Hate constantly on Character 3 - Hate was reset.


Feel free to poke holes in this, I came up with it while on smoke break at work, and since I'm at work, don't have time to fully review it.

[Kaeko]

I think I've found how to "reset" hate (ie, get a character cleared off the hate list) when the character is not the current target.

I was thinking about this, and trying to understand why logging hate or zoning hate seemed to work at large, long, drawn out fights.

Hypothesis: A character is removed from the hate list when the character would be the primary target but the monster is unable to
(Since looking at the above link, number 1 is needs to be modified)
1) target the character when tracking the character for 25 seconds (I believe it's 25 seconds, the amount of time may be different, but is easily found on worms).
1.m) <apply full set of tracking rules from http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/viewto ... =deodorize >
2) detect the character with any of its tracking methods
3) target the character

To test this, it requires 3 active participants.
Character 1 - Generate large amounts of CE
Character 2 - Generate moderate amounts of CE
Character 3 - Generate minimal CE (a single cast of dispel, etc).

Once all characters are at the desired CE levels, Character 2 performs an action to have higher total enmity than Character 1.
Character 1 zones.
Character 2 zones while the current target.

Character 2 is now cleared off the hate list (enmity reset).

Character 1 zones back in.
Character 1 performs an action on the monster
Character 3 performs an action on the montser

Observe reaction of monster.
Hate constantly on Character 1 - Hate was not reset
Hate constantly on Character 3 - Hate was reset.


Feel free to poke holes in this, I came up with it while on smoke break at work, and since I'm at work, don't have time to fully review it.

This is a pretty sound procedure to test the targeting / hate reset theory. I'll try this next time we get together. The tracking for 25 seconds theory I'm a bit shaky on though (but irrelevent to the test procedure you outlined, so np).

[Spekkio]

also, easy to test the possibility of hate not resetting on death. bring a lvl 75 rdm/whatever and a lvl 1 nin/whm outside of a starting city. cast dispel from rdm several times to get a good chunk of CE built. cast cure from nin/whm on rdm to get on hate list. mijin gakure. have a third party raise the dead player. now there's 2 interesting possibilities that could happen here. in theory, if the player is still on the hate list and the mob did not try to turn on him when he mijined (hence the several dispels) if the rdm zones, the mob should come for the ninja. moreover, if the mob comes for the ninja, after the mob kills the weakened ninja, the mob should go for the 3rd party that cast raise! if, we assume your assessment that any action taken on a player on the hate list MUST generate at least 1 CE, and the dead ninja is still on the hate list, the third party must have hate as they must at least have 1 CE from raising the ninja. moreover, if only the ninja dies and not the raise casting person, we'll have found an interesting, albeit likely useless, corner case for your assertion that any action on someone on the hate list generates 1 CE minimum.

[ismarc]

also, easy to test the possibility of hate not resetting on death. bring a lvl 75 rdm/whatever and a lvl 1 nin/whm outside of a starting city. cast dispel from rdm several times to get a good chunk of CE built. cast cure from nin/whm on rdm to get on hate list. mijin gakure. have a third party raise the dead player. now there's 2 interesting possibilities that could happen here. in theory, if the player is still on the hate list and the mob did not try to turn on him when he mijined (hence the several dispels) if the rdm zones, the mob should come for the ninja. moreover, if the mob comes for the ninja, after the mob kills the weakened ninja, the mob should go for the 3rd party that cast raise! if, we assume your assessment that any action taken on a player on the hate list MUST generate at least 1 CE, and the dead ninja is still on the hate list, the third party must have hate as they must at least have 1 CE from raising the ninja. moreover, if only the ninja dies and not the raise casting person, we'll have found an interesting, albeit likely useless, corner case for your assertion that any action on someone on the hate list generates 1 CE minimum.

The problem with this test is it involves damage to the mob and damage to the player. Since damage dealt/received in relation to enmity has not been fully explored, you're introducing variables that aren't understood that could easily skew the results. A more applicable test would be to have the nin/whm in your test be a rdm or /rdm with access to stoneskin/dispel. Prior to starting the test, they use poison/venom potions/convert to get to 1 hp, then die at the appropriate time from another poison potion.

It may be easier to have a second mob kill off the player, however, you're looking at some unique situations and even more unknown variables.

[Kaeko]

Just ancedotally, dying pretty much causes a hate reset. Anyone that's done endgame awhile has been a part of wipes and dying certainly does cause a reset of hate and enmity values at least most of the time. Formally showing this is true with some controlled testing isn't a bad idea though.

I have a feeling that the reason you run into the case of Sleep > dying > reraise > mob goes after you again - comes from the fact that when the mob is slept, it does not attempt to choose a target. While all this has to be shown in some series of tests, I think it would work like this...

Mob checks player at top of hate list...

A) Player is targetable >> goes after player
B) Player is not targetable >> hate (HC) is reset and enmity (TE) is reset

This check never occurs while mob is sleeping maybe, so even if you were to die while it's sleeping, the enmity reset actually occurs when the mob fails to find you, NOT when you actually died.

It may be possible that if the mob were to attack and kill you, the very next check would still attempt to find you, but would be unable to target due to the fact you just died, removing your TE. The removal of your enmity (TE) occurs at the check for you to target, not when you actually get KO'd. This would amply explain the sleep reraise oddity.

******

If this were true, an interesting concept to try would be say at fafnir...

Player A has hate, but Player B dies from a wing. Player B reraises... Did Player B receive an enmity reset? (we already know it will grant a HC removal). According to the idea I mentioned above, the TE reset should occur when the mob attempts and fails to target you. Player B was never targeted so the TE should not have reset?

[Spekkio]

Just ancedotally, dying pretty much causes a hate reset. Anyone that's done endgame awhile has been a part of wipes and dying certainly does cause a reset of hate and enmity values at least most of the time. Formally showing this is true with some controlled testing isn't a bad idea though.

I have a feeling that the reason you run into the case of Sleep > dying > reraise > mob goes after you again - comes from the fact that when the mob is slept, it does not attempt to choose a target. While all this has to be shown in some series of tests, I think it would work like this...

Mob checks player at top of hate list...

A) Player is targetable >> goes after player
B) Player is not targetable >> hate (HC) is reset and enmity (TE) is reset

This check never occurs while mob is sleeping maybe, so even if you were to die while it's sleeping, the enmity reset actually occurs when the mob fails to find you, NOT when you actually died.

It may be possible that if the mob were to attack and kill you, the very next check would still attempt to find you, but would be unable to target due to the fact you just died, removing your TE. The removal of your enmity (TE) occurs at the check for you to target, not when you actually get KO'd. This would amply explain the sleep reraise oddity.

******

If this were true, an interesting concept to try would be say at fafnir...

Player A has hate, but Player B dies from a wing. Player B reraises... Did Player B receive an enmity reset? (we already know it will grant a HC removal). According to the idea I mentioned above, the TE reset should occur when the mob attempts and fails to target you. Player B was never targeted so the TE should not have reset?

bingo. that's exactly my line of logic. generally if you die, you were probably getting slugged on by the mob and he'll immediately check for target. blam. you're off the hate list. several possible death situations i can think of which may have unique repercussions are: death by mob directly, death by DoT such as poison pot, death by mob's AoE such as wing or gob bomb, or death by a separate mob. does the mob only check to remove the HC when it kills you? does it actively scan the zone constantly to check and see if you are alive and update the HC even if it didn't kill you? there's several questions involved there. what's funny is the fafnir wing death was the exact situation that brought about that thought.

as for the target checking sleep stuff, it's immensely easy to test. sleep a mob, log out, log back in before it wakes. observe what happens. you might be surprised. ^^

[ismarc]

as for the target checking sleep stuff, it's immensely easy to test. sleep a mob, log out, log back in before it wakes. observe what happens. you might be surprised. ^^

It's even easier than that. Have enmity levels how you want them, then sleep the mob. Then use /assist. Someone does something, /assist again. In theory this will show changing targets while it's asleep.

[Kirschy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that even when a mob is sleeping it can change targets as VE decreases or spells are cast on it. This can be checked using the /as command.

I don't have any evidence to back this up, but it "feels" as if certian mobs check for the top 1-4 players on hate list, not just the top player. If I am able to get to 2nd on the hate list and log out before someone surpasses my hate, I appear to have a full enmity reset.

[Spekkio]

it's possible someone else had hate and it was screwing up the results or my memory just sucks, but i seem to remember that if i slept a mob solo, logged out, then logged back in too fast, there have been times when the mob came after me just after i logged in and trashed me. not just b/c i aggroed it, but it actually woke (because i got a log message) and it ran for me. interesting point though. wouldn't the log messages if you're not partied give you a hint about it?

[Alistaire]

Bit awkward solution maybe but if dying while not top on the hate list doesn't reset hate and hate only gets reset when the mob tries to target a player you could bind the mob in reach of the dead player? Might be useful to test if that theory of when hate clears is correct.

[Max™]

When I did the Windy WoTG fight against the War Lynx, I died, and got tossed a raise by a random passerby while the mob was walking back to the ???.

The instant I raised up, it ran over and kicked my ass.

Pissed me off to no end.


Also, just something I noticed...

http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/...sBrayettes.jpg

Those have -enmity on them.

[willriker]

hey kaeko, shoot me a tell sometime. we can test if assault breastplate has some sort of hidden effect where emnity is concerned.

[Spekkio]

When I did the Windy WoTG fight against the War Lynx, I died, and got tossed a raise by a random passerby while the mob was walking back to the ???.

The instant I raised up, it ran over and kicked my ass.

Pissed me off to no end.


Also, just something I noticed...

http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/...sBrayettes.jpg

Those have -enmity on them.

http://bg-wiki.com/Enlil%27s_Gambison
so does this, but the body's confirmed to not have any -enmity stat. a valid observation, but based on the above, it does not follow that the stats on the 15/25/35 bear any relationship to the final piece.