Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Kaeko]

I can recheck. I suppose the easiest way to show this is to use -53 enmity, then retest with -51 by taking something off. I know for sure the player without enmity gear had 0.

Retried this at -51, -52, and -53 enmity. All resulted in capping at -50.

I also tried see if damage dealt is somehow affected differently based on the post Whatinthe translated. Based on limited testing, I found that damage dealt and curing enmity is capped similarly to spells, so this is somewhat inconsistent with the JP post. The JP post uses horror head though, so that may have different effects.

Excluding Horror Head, I feel pretty confident that -50 enmity is the cap and affects spells, damage, and cures.

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Also, knowing the damage dealt enmity for level 75 leads to some pretty interesting things...

The mods on a level 75 mob are CE Mod = ~1.54, VE Mod = ~4.62.

Assuming no enmity modifications...

On a level 75 mob, a DD will instantly cap VE with any attack dealing more than 2165 damage.

On a level 75 mob, a DD will cap CE after 6494 damage assuming no CE loss due to damage taken.

I think this shows why PLD Invincible is not that effective with big DD's present. It also backs up the effectiveness of DD tanking when possible (for instance, on Salvage bosses).

I still need to figure things out for a wider range of mobs to get the values for mobs over 75 (the most pertinent considering you normally fight things in the 80s endgame).

[Kaeko]

I started a couple tests on CE loss when taking damage...

CE loss does not depend on level of mob.

CE loss does not depend on level difference between mob and player.

CE loss for a level 5 player was -21 * damage taken.

Enmity Gear does seem to affect CE loss for damage taken, but NOT the way you think it does... Adding +2 enmity gear actually INCREASED the CE loss, not decrease.

I tested this by having the level 5 player taking damage take damage with +2 enmity (lvl1 helmet). When 8 damage was dealt (should be 8x21=-168 ), -169 was produced. When 13 damage was dealt (should be 13x21=-273), -275 was produced. I'm not really sure what to make of this yet.

I may have missed some variable.. but this would be kind of weird... this suggests that a tank idling in enmity gear while taking is actually hurting his CE retention, not helping him. I think the next step is to test this with - enmity gear.

[Max™]

So wait, am I crazy or is that suggesting that +Enmity is factored coming and going, you get more with it on, but you lose more with it on too?

I noticed the DD hate effect in campaign a lot, where I'd grab a mob and start tanking, a Pld would grab it off me instantly, then within a few WSes I'm able to turn it any time I voke since we capped out CE.

[Narse]

I started a couple tests on CE loss when taking damage...

CE loss does not depend on level of mob.

CE loss does not depend on level difference between mob and player.

CE loss for a level 5 player was -21 * damage taken.

Enmity Gear does seem to affect CE loss for damage taken, but NOT the way you think it does... Adding +2 enmity gear actually INCREASED the CE loss, not decrease.

I tested this by having the level 5 player taking damage take damage with +2 enmity (lvl1 helmet). When 8 damage was dealt (should be 8x21=-168 ), -169 was produced. When 13 damage was dealt (should be 13x21=-273), -275 was produced. I'm not really sure what to make of this yet.

I may have missed some variable.. but this would be kind of weird... this suggests that a tank idling in enmity gear while taking is actually hurting his CE retention, not helping him. I think the next step is to test this with - enmity gear.

Was there a CHR difference in the setup? CHR effects CE enmity decay. I've tested this before personally, and a PLD in full Koenig vs one with no gear (same enmity merits and no enmity gear on either). The PLD in Koenig had to take more damage for the mob to leave him. Ex: PLD without Koenig takes 3 damage, mob goes to Koenig PLD, hits for 2 damage, 2 damage, 1 damage, 1 damage, goes back to other PLD, hits for 2, goes back to Koenig PLD, hits for 2, 1, 1, goes back to non Koenig PLD, etc.

[Tsuko_Asura]

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[Kaeko]

Was there a CHR difference in the setup? CHR effects CE enmity decay. I've tested this before personally, and a PLD in full Koenig vs one with no gear (same enmity merits and no enmity gear on either). The PLD in Koenig had to take more damage for the mob to leave him. Ex: PLD without Koenig takes 3 damage, mob goes to Koenig PLD, hits for 2 damage, 2 damage, 1 damage, 1 damage, goes back to other PLD, hits for 2, goes back to Koenig PLD, hits for 2, 1, 1, goes back to non Koenig PLD, etc.

Almost certain CHR doesn't do anything, but for this test it was the same so it really doesn't matter.

All I did was run the same test on the same character on the same mob but would use no enmity 1 time then +2 enmity another.

So wait, am I crazy or is that suggesting that +Enmity is factored coming and going, you get more with it on, but you lose more with it on too?

I noticed the DD hate effect in campaign a lot, where I'd grab a mob and start tanking, a Pld would grab it off me instantly, then within a few WSes I'm able to turn it any time I voke since we capped out CE.

I would have to test with - enmity gear first but it does seem to lean towards this...

[Max™]

Sooooo....

You have a base enmity amount, and any changes to your enmity are calculated based on that, so mages who nuke in -jesus enmity, and then pull hate would actually lose hate faster if they swapped it out, since being hit with -enm should take off a smaller chunk each time.

Weird.

[arus2001]

Moreover, it kind of sounds like once you've built hate up if you're tanking, switching to -enmity might be wiser if you know you'll be taking a hit. I don't think some inventories could take it. D:

[Max™]

Yeah, I was thinking that, but didn't want to say it because it sounds so weird...

God, what does that mean for enmity merits, are they actually hurting you if you're bloodtanking at all?

[Kaeko]

tested -enmity as well...

It also raises the CE loss when damage taken.

I was using Mushroom Stew (-4enmity) since level 5 characters don't have easy access to - enmity gear. 10 Damage led to -211 CE with -2 enmity (should be 10x-21=-210). I also did one with 7 damage leading to -148 CE at -4 enmity (should be 7x-21=-147)...

I'm not really sure what to make of this since both + and - enmity gear increase the CE loss. Also, the % changes in CE loss aren't directly based on the +/- enmity...

(-4 enmity) ==> 7 Damage , Predicted = -147 CE , Seen = -148 CE , |1| difference

(-2 enmity) ==> 10 Damage , Predicted = -210 CE , Seen = -211 CE , |1| difference

(+2 enmity) ==> 13 Damage , Predicted = -273 CE , Seen = -275 CE , |2| difference

(+2 enmity) ==> 8 Damage , Predicted = -168 CE , Seen = -169 CE , |1| difference

All tests were done on a LEVEL 5 BRD/WHM. Cach-ez was used for the enmity enhancement (+2 enmity, 2 DEF). For the person wondering about CHR, it was static throughout since it was the same character, equip and food had no +CHR.

Either I'm missing some variable, or the adjustment is a bit complex.

[fishstix]

I know all this, which is why I said it would be wrong to say release has the side effect of putting you on hate list of mobs you haven't acted on unless it's limited to battlefields. AFAIK there's only been cases of Release messing up aggro tanking in battlefields like DM and so on.

Sorry that this is a late response, kinda old, but this mystery still makes me wonder why it happens. I usually tell people it just does, and they have to take it on faith. I'm pretty sure it's a real supertank scenario when you pop an NM like Kirin and don't perform any direct hate action like casting, using JAs on Kirin, or resting. I tried this after reading about how it can work out for a tiny Kirin kite party; basically a kiter with +speed and someone to erase.

I had assumed my kiting partner was a sch since that was his job the previous Kirin pop, but this time, he came smn and so I didn't warn him about releasing avatars within the party during my supertank-kiting. I could've hasted myself, kiting as rdm/nin, but he felt the need to be proactive and used garuda to hastega me and release. Kirin b-lined straight to the smn after releasing and he died since I was confused on what had just happened and was too far to get hate on Kirin.

Basically what I'm saying is that this is a case where releasing an avatar during a supertank, ruined the process and pulled hate onto the smn. This was done in a dungeon, but I don't think the location (battlefields only) limits where supertanking can be ruined. (Unless you don't consider popping Kirin and running, without establishing any hate, falls under the same supertanking category.) Personally though, I did first encountered this during COP 6-4, the airship fight. It took us 3 wipes to figure out that releasing an avatar pulls hate from a supertank setup.

[Kaeko]

I may have been too hasty in saying that enmity gear affects things. I forgot to take into account margin of error in this. The differences are so small that it appears that all these fall into margin of error due to rounding, so Enmity may not have any effect on things...

On the other hand, I did more testing on this and unlike damage dealt and HP cured, it seems that max HP may play a role in the formula... I can get varying CE modifiers on the same lvl75 job and same mob attacking by simply changing the max HP.

Limited testing shows that max HP matters, but DEF does not. CHR didn't but I didn't run a conclusive test on this.

LVL75 with 1020 HP the mod was about 1.75 CE lossed per 1 HP damage taken. Would be interesting if the biggest factor to retaining CE in blood tanking was to just get a higher max HP lol

[Amok]

I could've hasted myself, kiting as rdm/nin, but he felt the need to be proactive and used garuda to hastega me and release. Kirin b-lined straight to the smn after releasing and he died since I was confused on what had just happened and was too far to get hate on Kirin.

Basically what I'm saying is that this is a case where releasing an avatar during a supertank, ruined the process and pulled hate onto the smn.

I don't know if Kirin is special, but I don't think he is. What happened after the SMN died? Did more people end up on the hate list besides him? I have several hunches on this topic of how this might work. Say, models that would explain it, but it's PURE speculation and it makes little sense to propose them without testing. Anyway, I think this is a very interesting topic.... Ok, I lied, this is how I think it works:

So far it's been pretty clear that having hate and being a target of a mob are not the same thing. It's the entire reason why aggro tanking works. However, during the aggro testing I did I never found a way to have more than one person have only aggro hate, because quite honestly, I don't think it's possible. When a mob aggros, it aggros ONE person. That's probably why I was under the assumption that a mob can have ONLY ONE current TARGET while having an empty hate list. That assumption is probably wrong. And this is why:

What Sky gods and some battlefields have in common is that they will kill everyone in alliance if given the chance even if no action is taken. This type of alliance hate STILL let's you aggro/super tank. So it's similar to being aggro'd, only the aggro is to the entire alliance (or zone if it's a battlefield). I think a target list and hate list don't exist separately, they're probably the same thing only being a "target" means having 0 enmity. (I've heard people say the same thing before, but now I actually believe it) A NORMAL mob or HNM/NM that isn't force pop will not aggro everyone, but just a single person. Not being on the target/hate list at all means no action you take can put you on that list unless it's on the mob itself or on someone with enmity > 0. Assuming release is special in that it gains the user enimty EVEN if their current enmity is 0, I believe we may have our answer. I think this is why Release does not ruin super tanking on normal environment mobs, but it does in battlefields/other zone/alliance aggro environments. Tadaaa...

Ok well, this theory can still get pummled into dust, but it seems pretty sound so far...

[RoadDogg12]

On the other hand, I did more testing on this and unlike damage dealt and HP cured, it seems that max HP may play a role in the formula... I can get varying CE modifiers on the same lvl75 job and same mob attacking by simply changing the max HP.

It seems like its not the direct number of HP that is cured, but the % of HP is cured that effects the modifier. This would explain the slope, +15 max HP when u level is a much larger max HP % increase when your base is 40 than when its 1000.

I don't have much experience as a healer, but does a Cure 4 seem to pull more hate on a Ninja rather than a Paladin?

[Kaeko]

It seems like its not the direct number of HP that is cured, but the % of HP is cured that effects the modifier. This would explain the slope, +15 max HP when u level is a much larger max HP % increase when your base is 40 than when its 1000.

I don't have much experience as a healer, but does a Cure 4 seem to pull more hate on a Ninja rather than a Paladin?

I'm talking about damage taken. Cure formula is already fully documented and has nothing to do with HP.

[Kriz]

I'm quite pleased that the Enmity- cap is 50. 50, while difficult, isn't impossible to reach. If it capped at 100, that'd be rough. The best I could find was -79 using some crazy gear (HQs and Assault only), but most WHMs roll with ~20. I guess I should push up to 35 or so.

For me, the biggest interesting thing is that -Enmity may shed hate faster with regards to taking damage. If true, then the ohshit gearset will have to make room for some -enmity gearswaps

[Kaeko]

I'm quite pleased that the Enmity- cap is 50. 50, while difficult, isn't impossible to reach. If it capped at 100, that'd be rough. The best I could find was -79 using some crazy gear (HQs and Assault only), but most WHMs roll with ~20. I guess I should push up to 35 or so.

For me, the biggest interesting thing is that -Enmity may shed hate faster with regards to taking damage. If true, then the ohshit gearset will have to make room for some -enmity gearswaps

Actually that was kind of a false alarm. I didn't take into account rounding error and got my modifier wrong . The CE loss actually seems based on either only Max HP or a combination of player level and Max HP. So far, it seems like the higher your max HP, the less hate you shed per 1 damage taken.

I'll have to get more real values to see how this scales with your max HP (especially at level 75), but it does seem to vary quite drastically since at 75, max HP totals also vary quite a lot. This may be a convenient explanation as to why a tank can take quite a bit of damage without losing hate while a mage can take 1 shot and lose hate quite easily.

Enmity gear either way doesn't seem to affect this but I'll have to formally debunk it later. I'm almost positive Foe Sirvente would affect this just because I can't think of anything else it would do and it fits the description quite nicely, but I haven't actually tested.

[Kriz]

Ah well. It'd be nice but nothing we can't live without!

Now to start squirreling away on FFXIAH and building SCH and WHM enmity-50 sets!

[VZX]

Also, knowing the damage dealt enmity for level 75 leads to some pretty interesting things...

The mods on a level 75 mob are CE Mod = ~1.54, VE Mod = ~4.62.

Assuming no enmity modifications...

On a level 75 mob, a DD will instantly cap VE with any attack dealing more than 2165 damage.

On a level 75 mob, a DD will cap CE after 6494 damage assuming no CE loss due to damage taken.

This is really nice.
So most RNG/WAR most likely gonna fill their 1/3+ of their CE bar and capped the VE bar most of the time.

Did you get a chance to test on higher level mob? just wanna know if it require more damage (more likely) or the same damage to gain such amount of enmity.

[Kaeko]

This is really nice.
So most RNG/WAR most likely gonna fill their 1/3+ of their CE bar and capped the VE bar most of the time.

Did you get a chance to test on higher level mob? just wanna know if it require more damage (more likely) or the same damage to gain such amount of enmity.

I've only gotten to EM lvl75 Steelshells. This was because another player gave me an estimation so it was easy to verify a number rather than test blindly. I would guess that the CE/VE mod would decrease further. I know most endgame events focus around 8X mobs so it'll be a priority when testing this. I actually might focus more on damage taken first since it appears easier to test at this point.

Right now the thing holding me back on testing 75+ mobs is the difficulty in testing. Damage taken is much easier since I don't have to pick particular mobs to test, which can be difficult to sustain 0 damage hits.