Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

The preliminary information on damage taken CE loss is very interesting. I look forward to your final findings. I reactivated my accounts in early July to dabble in FFXI some more, but I was spending my time leveling RDM (Lv42) and DRK (Lv37) on Ryoii. (Nonomii is already Lv75 RDM, so testing will now be more precise.)

I'm planning to go back and revisit the damage dealt CE formula for enemies at or below Lv64, so don't waist any time on the lower levels. I'm still very busy in RL, so I don't expect to have it all redone for about a month. Hope you can find some help with the Lv8x part of the equation.

[Kabbalah]

Actually that was kind of a false alarm. I didn't take into account rounding error and got my modifier wrong . The CE loss actually seems based on either only Max HP or a combination of player level and Max HP. So far, it seems like the higher your max HP, the less hate you shed per 1 damage taken.

I'll have to get more real values to see how this scales with your max HP (especially at level 75), but it does seem to vary quite drastically since at 75, max HP totals also vary quite a lot. This may be a convenient explanation as to why a tank can take quite a bit of damage without losing hate while a mage can take 1 shot and lose hate quite easily.

Enmity gear either way doesn't seem to affect this but I'll have to formally debunk it later. I'm almost positive Foe Sirvente would affect this just because I can't think of anything else it would do and it fits the description quite nicely, but I haven't actually tested.

Whew. Here's me breathing a sigh of relief.

[Hashmalum]

FFXIclopedia's Provoke entry claims that "Warriors 50+ get an Enmity Bonus to provoke making it stronger than warrior subbed or a warrior 49 or less. This was stated in an interview by Square-Enix. The amount added to the bonus was not given." Is this true? I'm rather doubtful since I have never seen this alleged interview and no link was given.

[eva00r]

Try think about a percentage of max hp ? the <hpp> variable might mean something ...

[Kaeko]

FFXIclopedia's Provoke entry claims that "Warriors 50+ get an Enmity Bonus to provoke making it stronger than warrior subbed or a warrior 49 or less. This was stated in an interview by Square-Enix. The amount added to the bonus was not given." Is this true? I'm rather doubtful since I have never seen this alleged interview and no link was given.

Sounds like hogwash. FFXIWiki has a lot of weird stuff like SCH's sub affects its base stats, etc.

[Kaeko]

Found this formula for damage taken in basically a day, very easy.

Things that do NOT affect CE loss from damage taken:
Charisma (CHR)
Player Level
Player Job
Monster Level
+/- Enmity

Only the MAX HP of the person taking damage affects CE loss from damage taken.

This was found by simply making all other variables constant and switching 1 at a time.

Data:
DT = Damage Taken
CE = CE lossed
Mod Low = Found by CE/DT
Mod High = Found by (CE+1)/DT (used for upper bound of truncation error)
Max HP = self explanatory

The actual "true mod" value must be equal or greater than the Low, and less than the High.

DT = 22 | CE = 40 | Mod Low = 1.81818 | Mod High = 1.86364 | Max HP = 970

DT = 14 | CE = 28 | Mod Low = 2.00000 | Mod High = 2.07143 | Max HP = 895

DT = 34 | CE = 60 | Mod Low = 1.76471 | Mod High = 1.79412 | Max HP = 1020

DT = 46 | CE = 99 | Mod Low = 2.15217 | Mod High = 2.17391 | Max HP = 833

DT = 13 | CE = 275 | Mod Low = 21.15385 | Mod High = 21.23077 | Max HP = 85

DT = 3 | CE = 163 | Mod Low = 54.33333 | Mod High = 54.66667 | Max HP = 33

DT = 3 | CE = 168 | Mod Low = 56.00000 | Mod High = 56.33333 | Max HP = 32

This is the raw data I got. The pattern is actually quite obvious if you look closely for a bit...

CE Loss = 1800 * [ Damage Taken ] / [ Max HP ]

Round all values down (truncation)

I ran another test to make sure that taking damage does not affect VE. This was done by taking a LVL6 PLD/BLM and LVL75 RDM. PLD pulls with Poison (201CE) with Phalanx II on. RDM cures 3 times (3CE). PLD uses 2hr to generate 7200 VE (takes 2 minutes to go away).

PLD then takes a bunch of damage until almost death. RDM quickly rebuffs Phalanx 2 to prevent PLD from dying. Check to see how long it takes for PLD to lose hate (even though has 200+ CE over RDM to start, damage taken to null this to 1). If it is 2 minutes, VE is not affected; if it is less, then VE was affected. Turns out VE was not (even 2 minutes).

I'll probably write the formal testing procedure for these in addition to checking Foe Sirvente when I get the chance to test this... Couple of things though...

Max HP can play a pretty significant roll in this damage taken formula. A Taru WHM has about 800 HP, leading to 2.25 CE lost per damage taken. Compare this to like an ELV PLD with 1600 HP, which has 1.125 CE lost per damage taken... half of this. If you want to blood tank, Max HP has a huge affect on your ability to retain CE. I need to check Sirvente; hopefully that affects this because I can't think of any other thing it would affect.

[Lyramion]

Amazing

[eva00r]

wow ...
a 1800 hp pld takes 1000 damage will lose 1000 CE while
a 1500 hp pld takes 1000 damage will lose 1200 CE ... That's more than a Flash's CE difference !
This is just wow ... PLDs will now have a serious discuss between +HP and +Enmity equip

[Lyramion]

Hmmm... so eating Spagetti HP+ Food will reduce your enmity loss.


On the other side wearing full zenith will increase your enmity loss!



P.S. Today is a sad day for Taru Tanks and a glorious one for Galkas

[Spekkio]

do we know if it's HP based only off certain slots, or if convert gear is treated as special like with the sorc ring latent or is it just straight up <hpp>?

[Ratatapa]

interesting stuff stuff kaeko

[Kaeko]

do we know if it's HP based only off certain slots, or if convert gear is treated as special like with the sorc ring latent or is it just straight up <hpp>?

I have to mess with this one still. The equip switches I was using to generate HP differences were...

Ring Slot 1
Body
Hands
Feet
Legs
Waist

None of these generated odd results.

Are there any particular slots you want me to look at? I know food is 1 I need to look at.

[Whatinthe]

I would like to see tests done on HP%+ equipment, convert HP-MP, and back and ranged. It should not behave like Sorc Ring (HP-MP stuff in ring1 affects Sorc in ring2, but not vice versa) because the calculation should be done at a different point in time. Thanks.

[Kaeko]

I would like to see tests done on HP%+ equipment, convert HP-MP, and back and ranged. It should not behave like Sorc Ring (HP-MP stuff in ring1 affects Sorc in ring2, but not vice versa) because the calculation should be done at a different point in time. Thanks.

Dalmatica was used in one of the tests so I think convert equip is fine unless it's only convert equip in certain slots you want to look at.

[Whatinthe]

Interesting, so as a tank you should be wearing as much hp+ (cassie, etc.) in order to lessen hate loss through damage taken, but this goes especially for taru tanks.

The other test I would like to see (but is probably harder to test) would be hate loss through AoE, ie. -ga spells or AoE moves. I'm pretty sure it would involve the same CE loss as long as you are on the mob's hate list, but it would be useful to know.

[Kaeko]

Tested gear all gear slots including ranged as well as food.

They all work so it's just straight max HP

[Ashira]

kaeko. when are you doing this shit, I haven't even seen you.. online.. ever.. ._.

[Kaeko]

kaeko. when are you doing this shit, I haven't even seen you.. online.. ever.. ._.

Massive Jet Lag

[Tubbers]

wow ...
a 1800 hp pld takes 1000 damage will lose 1000 CE while
a 1500 hp pld takes 1000 damage will lose 1200 CE ... That's more than a Flash's CE difference !
This is just wow ... PLDs will now have a serious discuss between +HP and +Enmity equip

Not really... just have idle gear put in +HP, swap to enmity for actions. It's quite simple. Idling in +enmity gear has not been shown to help in any way, at all. It doesn't reduce enmity loss, and enmity increase is laughable at best. While idling a PLD isn't generating much if any enmity from melee in most cases (they would get more in melee gear than enmity gear), therefore it is pointless to idle in +enmity as shown so far.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

What Kaeko's testing has confirmed for me is that just about any blood tank will quickly drop to 0 CE even if they open a fight with a weapon skill to gain a significant amount of CE. The only way CE will help while blood tanking is if you can deal more damage than you take.

Lets consider several different blood tanks fighting Lv45 enemies:

Lv37 Galka MNK/WAR (~894 HP)
CE loss multiplier = 1800 / 894 = ~2.01
CE gain DMG multiplier = ~2.42

Hypothetical Fight:
Deals 500 DMG ... Takes 600 DMG
500*2.42 - 600*2.01 = 1210 - 1206 = 4CE

Comment:
I think I was being rather generous in giving this MNK almost as much damage output as damage taken, but we still see that CE plays almost no role in his keeping hate.

Lv37 Galka PLD/WAR (~759 HP)
CE loss multiplier = 1800 / 759 = ~2.37
CE gain DMG multiplier = ~2.42
CE gain CURE multiplier = ~1.21

Hypothetical Fight:
Flash ... Deals 200 DMG ... Takes 200 DMG ... Cures 200 DMG ... Takes 200 DMG
180 + 200*2.42 - 200*2.37 + 200*1.21 - 200*2.37 = 180 + 484 - 474 + 242 - 474 = -42CE

Comment:
CE will help some during the beginning of a fight if you open with Flash and a weapon skill, but you will be unable to keep up with CE loss even while curing yourself.

Lv37 Tarutaru PLD/WAR (~527 HP)
CE loss multiplier = 1800 / 527 = ~3.42
CE gain DMG multiplier = ~2.42
CE gain CURE multiplier = ~1.21

Hypothetical Fight:
Flash ... Deals 200 DMG ... Takes 200 DMG ... Cures 200 DMG ... Takes 200 DMG
180 + 200*2.42 - 200*3.42 + 200*1.21 - 200*3.42 = 180 + 484 - 684 + 242 - 684 = -462CE

Lv37 Galka SAM/WAR (~796 HP)
CE loss multiplier = 1800 / 796 = ~2.26
CE gain DMG multiplier = ~2.42

Hypothetical Fight:
Deals 400 DMG ... Takes 400 DMG
400*2.42 - 400*2.50 = 968 - 904 = 64CE

Comment:
I've tanked from Lv35 to Lv75 as SAM/WAR, and I'd say that you take about as much damage as you deal out. Still your Max HP isn't doing much for your hate holding near the end of a fight. (However, I leveled most of my time in a trio and found that I dealt 50-100% more damage than I took.)

I'll try to actually record the real numbers from a fight while I'm leveling my RDM, but I believe that CE for blood tanking isn't very important. It only becomes important when you are using shadows.