Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Callisto]

Trying to figure this out by myself but after thinking about it too much I think my brain is bleeding...

Going back to the higher max HP = lower enmity loss, I'm trying to figure out which of 2 options for XP would create/retain more overall hate, idling in HP gear and doing less damage, or idling in DD gear with less HP(what I currently do) and losing more enmity per hit...I guess this can be pretty gear/support/mob dependant, but it does make me curious as to which is better.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

The BRD subjob suggestion is very much appreciated. I'll need to unlock it, but the time savings will be immensely helpful. I also understand now that we will need to test large spans of consecutive levels, and I believe with BRD I should be able to do Nest Beetles (Lv45-47) in the near future. It looks as though Lv45 will be Tough, Lv46 will be Very Tough, and Lv47 will be Incredibly Tough, so those will be really easy to figure out.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

I was looking at the enmity table for curing, and I realized you didn't post the formula.

Formula for CE Modifier for HP Cured
f(x) = CE gained per HP cured
f(x) = 40/[x + 10] if x < 11
f(x) = 40/[floor(x/2) + 15] if 8 < x < 55
f(x) = 40/[floor(3x/5) + 10] if x > 48
where x is the level of the target being cured

However, you can clean up the bounds and use the formula below:
f(x) = 40/[x + 10] if x < 10
f(x) = 40/[floor(x/2) + 15] if 10 <= x < 50
f(x) = 40/[floor(3x/5) + 10] if x >= 50


Perhaps we will find something similar for damage dealt.

[Halion]

After witnessing a fairly ignorant comment about this testing I felt the need to say good job guys, keep up the AWESOME WORK it is so very appreciated by many many people!!

[Samot]

I read about the HP factor in a thread about a poorly translated japanese book about FFXI a few years ago, but its really nice to see scientifically tested confirmation (it also annoys the shit out of me that JP have so many ffxi resources and we dont ;; ). My question would be: how much HP has to be on a piece to outweigh a certain amount of enmity (or vice versa)?

Aside from that, the only problem with this is that, out of courtesy to crappy healers, i still try to keep my visible gear unchanged during normal actions (things that happen often like voke and flash). I still gear swap invisible slots to appropriate enmity or haste gear for those actions tho, and I swap visible gear for important long recast actions as well, like valor feet for sentinal and such.

The more i think about it, the more i think it points to using more pieces of the I.R. gear you get from doing campain. (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ram_Sallet_Set) most of the pieces have the best mix of enmity and hp for their particular slots, especially the pants. I can't wait till they release the body pieces for these sets, i hope they're going to be as good as the pattern suggests.


-As a side question, i'm wondering if anyone knows if +shield bash gear does anything for enmity BESIDES the tiny amount of damage it does. I know it used to increase the chance of stun, but they fixed that a long time ago and it stuns pretty much every time now. Based on the information i have now, the "shield bash +10" on valor gauntlets is useless as far as i can tell, making I.R. Dastanas far better, but i'd like confirmation if possible.

[Ferien]

If I'm reading all this correctly, HP and the Enmity stat work completely independent of each other. Max HP is figured into the CE loss formula, where Enmity has no effect whatsoever, whereas Enmity is figured into the gain formulas, where HP has no effect whatsoever. Thus we have an even more potent argument for full-on Enmity gearswaps for hate-generating actions, and full-on Defense/HP swaps for the idle set. As long as this doesn't result in a sudden resurgence of Koenig, I'll be happy.

[Ratatapa]

GO KOENIG BODY!!!

jk lol

but yeah think gonna rebuy steppe sash for that lol

[Spekkio]

a key factor to remember is that HP is still only useful when you're taking damage. if you're losing enmity to blinks being ripped off or whatnot (AoE that takes 3 blinks can be worth -75 CE) it matters not if you have 5 or 500 enmity. trying to calculate a "ratio" of +enmity to +HP would be a fruitless exercise as every situation has its own mitigating circumstances.

an odd situation happens though, due to the enmity lost from taking damage being linked to a different factor (HP) than enmity generated from healing. there is a threshold (though it may be so low as to be useless) at which point enmity vented by taking N damage exceeds enmity generated by curing a player at N HP. this may lead to situations where it is advantageous to a whm or other healer to actually seek to take a hit they know they can survive in an effort to dump more enmity, even if they themselves would have to cure back the HP.

another application of this information: if a whm recognizes that they will likely take a significant chunk of damage, but most of it will be defrayed by stoneskin (think wings at fafhogg) keeping max HP artificially low so that the damage absorbed by stoneskin is worth more enmity reduction may be a viable strategy if enmity becomes a problem.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Charmed pets from BST will loose CE significantly slower than players if their CE loss follows the same formula. This could help explain why BST can melee next to his pets at higher levels.

Lv75 Pet (~5000 HP)
CE loss multiplier = 1800 / 5000 = ~0.36
CE gain DMG multiplier = ~1.54

Lv75 BST (~1000 HP)
CE loss multiplier = 1800 / 1000 = ~1.8
CE gain for curing multiplier = ~0.727

CE gain over time will likely be over 1 CE per DMG even when you scale things down for lower levels. Now this also puts forward a good argument for BST/DNC since the CE gained from healing back damage taken will be less than the CE lost. Also you can cure back the damage between fights or by using Drain Samba which I believe would be hate free after the initial use of the ability. Tarutaru BST/DNC ftw!

[Spekkio]

Charmed pets from BST will loose CE significantly slower than players if their CE loss follows the same formula. This could help explain why BST can melee next to his pets at higher levels.

Lv75 Pet (~5000 HP)
CE loss multiplier = 1800 / 5000 = ~0.36
CE gain DMG multiplier = ~1.54

Lv75 BST (~1000 HP)
CE loss multiplier = 1800 / 1000 = ~1.8
CE gain for curing multiplier = ~0.727

CE gain over time will likely be over 1 CE per DMG even when you scale things down for lower levels. Now this also puts forward a good argument for BST/DNC since the CE gained from healing back damage taken will be less than the CE lost. Also you can cure back the damage between fights or by using Drain Samba which I believe would be hate free after the initial use of the ability. Tarutaru BST/DNC ftw!

good idea but they fixed the pet getting the drain samba effect. player onry now. you do make a good point about why meleeing w/ your pet at 75 is a lot easier than at 35, since the HP difference and thus the CE loss multiplier is separated by a much wider margin.

[Samot]

a.) Hi spek, /wave

and

b.) "an odd situation happens though, due to the enmity lost from taking damage being linked to a different factor (HP) than enmity generated from healing. there is a threshold (though it may be so low as to be useless) at which point enmity vented by taking N damage exceeds enmity generated by curing a player at N HP. this may lead to situations where it is advantageous to a whm or other healer to actually seek to take a hit they know they can survive in an effort to dump more enmity, even if they themselves would have to cure back the HP."

Thats what i was asking about for tanking purposes, only the other side of the same coin, when blood tanking, alot of the enmity a pld gets is from curing yourself or others, given max HP reduces hate loss, and enm+ increases hate gained, i'm wondering which stat will benefit you more (in what amount) in the long run. for example, if you WEREN'T going to swap gear (just for this example), for keeping hate while blood tanking, whats better? 3 enmity (like on hercules ring) or 75 hp (like BQ)? Herc is going to increase your gain at a certain rate and BQ is going to decrease your loss at a certain rate, i'm just wondering where the lines on the graph cross, because some slots i don't like swapping every 30 seconds.

[Xanthu]

another application of this information: if a whm recognizes that they will likely take a significant chunk of damage, but most of it will be defrayed by stoneskin (think wings at fafhogg) keeping max HP artificially low so that the damage absorbed by stoneskin is worth more enmity reduction may be a viable strategy if enmity becomes a problem.

Damage absorbed by SS will not lose you hate. This has been one of the staples of testing from the beginning.

[Freysi]

Do you lose CE from taking damage from AOE moves that are targeted on someone else?

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Alright Samot, I'll try to compare Bomb Queen Ring and Hercules' Ring as Lv66 Tarutaru PLD/WAR (972 Base HP) fighting Lv75 Steelshells. I chose a Tarutaru because the Bomb Queen Ring provides a greater benefit with lower base HP. I'm not going to account for any extra HP or Enmity gear in this example, and I'm going to use the simplified battle described below:

Simplified Battle
(Second: Event)
00: Provoke (Getting hit right as you Provoke would only loose you 1 CE if you have not yet hit the enemy.)
01: Hit Enemy
02: Flash
03: Evade Enemy's Attack
04: Start Casting Cure III
05: Nothing
06: Evade Enemy's Attack
07: Finish Casting Cure III
08: Nothing
09: Block Enemy's Attack
10: Hit Enemy
11: Nothing
12: Don't Block Enemy's Attack
13: Nothing
14: Hit Enemy
15: Block Enemy's Attack
16: Nothing
17: Nothing
18: Don't Block Enemy's Attack
19: Hit Enemy
20: Start Casting Cure III
21: Block Enemy's Attack
22: Nothing
23: Finish Casting Cure III
24: Don't Block Enemy's Attack
25: Nothing
26: Hit Enemy
27: Block Enemy's Attack

PLD deals 220 DMG, takes 440 DMG, and cures 380 HP, which is about as good as it gets without accounting for TP based actions.

Bomb Queen Ring
Cure III (190 HP) Enmity: 0.816 * 190 CE & 4.90 * 190 VE = 155 CE & 931 VE
Flash Enmity: 180 CE & 1280 VE
Provoke Enmity: 1 CE & 1800 VE
Enmity loss from taking 100 DMG: 1800 / (972 + 75) * 100 = 171 CE
Enmity loss from taking 35 DMG (Block): 1800 / (972 + 75) * 35 = 60 CE
Enmity gain from dealing 44 DMG: 1.5385 * 44 CE & 4.6155 * 44 VE = 67 CE & 203 VE

--: 0 CE & 0 VE
00: 1 CE & 1800 VE
01: 68 CE & 1943 VE
02: 248 CE & 3163 VE
03: 248 CE & 3103 VE
04: 248 CE & 3043 VE
05: 248 CE & 2983 VE
06: 248 CE & 2923 VE
07: 403 CE & 3794 VE
08: 403 CE & 3734 VE
09: 343 CE & 3674 VE
10: 410 CE & 3817 VE
11: 410 CE & 3757 VE (CE peaks at 9.84% of TE)
12: 239 CE & 3697 VE
13: 239 CE & 3637 VE
14: 306 CE & 3780 VE
15: 246 CE & 3720 VE
16: 246 CE & 3660 VE
17: 246 CE & 3600 VE
18: 75 CE & 3540 VE
19: 142 CE & 3683 VE
20: 142 CE & 3623 VE
21: 82 CE & 3563 VE
22: 82 CE & 3503 VE
23: 237 CE & 4374 VE
24: 66 CE & 4314 VE
25: 66 CE & 4254 VE
26: 133 CE & 4397 VE
27: 73 CE & 4337 VE (4410 TE)
(Checking VE: 1800+1280+931*2+203*5-60*27=4337)

Hercules' Ring
Cure III (190 HP) Enmity: 0.816 * 1.03 *190 CE & 4.90 * 1.03 * 190 VE = 159 CE & 958 VE
Flash Enmity: 180 * 1.03 CE & 1280 * 1.03 VE = 185 CE & 1318 VE
Provoke Enmity: 1 CE & 1800 * 1.03 VE = 1 CE & 1854 VE
Enmity loss from taking 100 DMG: 1800 / 972 * 100 = 185 CE
Enmity loss from taking 35 DMG (Block): 1800 / 972 * 35 = 64 CE
Enmity gain from dealing 44 DMG: 1.5385 * 1.03 * 44 CE & 4.6155 * 1.03 * 44 VE = 69 CE & 209 VE

--: 0 CE & 0 VE
00: 1 CE & 1854 VE
01: 70 CE & 2003 VE
02: 255 CE & 3261 VE
03: 255 CE & 3201 VE
04: 255 CE & 3141 VE
05: 255 CE & 3081 VE
06: 255 CE & 3021 VE
07: 414 CE & 3919 VE
08: 414 CE & 3859 VE
09: 350 CE & 3799 VE
10: 419 CE & 3948 VE
11: 419 CE & 3888 VE
12: 234 CE & 3828 VE
13: 234 CE & 3768 VE
14: 303 CE & 3917 VE
15: 239 CE & 3857 VE
16: 239 CE & 3797 VE
17: 239 CE & 3737 VE
18: 54 CE & 3677 VE
19: 123 CE & 3826 VE
20: 123 CE & 3766 VE
21: 59 CE & 3706 VE
22: 59 CE & 3646 VE
23: 218 CE & 4544 VE
24: 33 CE & 4484 VE
25: 33 CE & 4424 VE
26: 102 CE & 4573 VE
27: 38 CE & 4513 VE (4551 TE / 3.2% more)
(Checking VE: 1854+1318+958*2+209*5-60*27=4513)

You might end with slightly more CE but significantly less VE while using a Bomb Queen Ring over a Hercules' Ring. Even if I accounted for TP based actions, I'm sure you would see enmity win. This again demonstrates how unimportant CE is while blood tanking. At best it accounted for close to 10% of the total enmity. The percentage of total enmity would increase some if your damage output was closer to damage taken or base HP was much higher, but I still believe enmity gear would benefit you more.

All of our PLD/WAR's efforts will let him or her keep hate off any damage dealer who has dealt less than 1002 DMG in this example if we assume that they start hitting the enemy right as he or she uses provoke. Another thing to note is that half of this damage can be done right after the PLD uses Provoke and Flash without their loosing hate throughout the battle. The situation would probably be similar if a NIN, WAR, SAM, or MNK tank opened a battle with Provoke followed by a weapon skill.

Tank TE - DD TE = 0
Tank TE - (DD CE + DD VE) = 0
Tank TE - (DMG * 1.5385 + DMG * 1.5385 * 3 - 60 * 27) = 0
Tank TE + 60 * 27 = DMG * 1.5385 + DMG * 1.5385 * 3
Tank TE + 1620 = DMG * 4 * 1.5385
4551 + 1620 = DMG * 6.154
DMG = 6171 / 6.154 = 1002.76

[Kaeko]

Being nitpicky here but if you want to use exact #s, provoke has 1CE

[Samot]

Thank you for doing all that calculation Ryoii, the information is very interesting.

For a short fight, such as the one you used in your experimental model, i believe you reached the right conclusion and enmity will do more for you than HP, However, It seems the longer the fight, the more CE advantage an HP build gives you, so for longer fights the conclusion may be different.

I'm still hoping for a direct "this much enmity is better than this much HP" for certain situations, because the graphs must cross somewhere, but its seeming more and more like a good balance is the goal. (glad i'm 10 days from full I.R. gear)

Thank you all for the continued testing.

[Ferien]

Simple: in situations where you're taking damage, 1 HP is better than 100 Enmity. In situations where you're using anything that builds hate, 1 Enmity is better than all the HP in the world. They're used for two wholly different aspects of hate control, they can't be related to each other. Keep your ohshit set to full Defense and Max HP, keep your action set to full Enmity and Haste, maybe add some max HP to your idle set and there'll never be a problem.

[eva00r]

In situations where you're using anything that builds hate, 1 Enmity is better than all the HP in the world

This is wrong because shit can happen in any second if you tank something worth mentioning. Never ever drop your HP below 1400 or you'll regret.

However I do agree that HP and Enmity are seperated issues. Just macros them in and out, and you'll be fine. And BTW, after macroing your HP max set in, you will have another opportunity to gain hate by curing your hp gap.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Damage Dealt Modifiers
Lv16 Warchief Vatgit: 80/15
Lv36 Mimas: 80/28 - 549 DMG - 1568 CE
Lv40 Siege Bat: 80/30 - 178 DMG - 474 CE
Lv41 Siege Bat: 80/31 - 182 DMG - 471 CE
Lv42 Borer Beetle: 80/32 - 184 DMG - 460 CE
Lv43 Borer Beetle: 80/32 - 182 DMG - 455 CE
Lv44 Borer Beetle: 80/33 - 181 DMG - 438 CE
Lv45 Chamber Beetle: 80/33 - 403 DMG - 976 CE
Lv46 Chamber Beetle: 80/34 - 403 DMG - 948 CE
Lv47 Chamber Beetle: 80/35 - 403 DMG - 921 CE
Lv48 Soldier Crawler: 80/35 - 403 DMG - 921 CE
Lv49 Soldier Crawler: 80/36 - 417 DMG - 926 CE
Lv50 Hornfly: 80/37 - 426 DMG - 921 CE
Lv51 Hornfly: 80/37 - 426 DMG - 921 CE
Lv52 Hornfly: 80/38 - 439 DMG - 924 CE
Lv53 Hornfly: 80/38 - 439 DMG - 924 CE
Lv55 Drone Crawler: 80/40 (Not confident this is accurate)
Lv75 Steelshell: 80/52 (Not confident this is accurate)
Lv76 Catoblepas: 80/53 - 557 DMG - 840 CE
Lv77 Catoblepas: 80/53 - 557 DMG - 840 CE
Lv78 Catoblepas: Cannot find any of these.
Lv79 Catoblepas: 80/54 - 567 DMG - 840 CE
Lv80 Catoblepas: 80/55 - 578 DMG - 840 CE

Here is the formula so far:
f(x) = CE per damage dealt
f(x) = 80/[floor(31x+50)+6] if 1 <= x <= 75
where x is the level of the target being damaged

I'm getting much better at this. ^_^

Helps that I'm now able to use full HP and got a Martial Anelace.

[Max™]

The Kraken in Qufim is lvl 40 last I checked.