Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Raizins]

Damage on Namas is still much lower than Sidewinder. If SE makes improvements to relic WS such as Namas and puts it on par with Sidewinder damage, then this effect could be crazy. Otherwise, spamming Namas arrow on something like Ixion the entire fight is kinda lame.

[DancingEdge]

Here's a question for you, since I'm bored, does using accomplice in -enmity gear cause 50% of your target's enmity to be absorbed, but X% of it = to your -enmity disappears due to the -enmity?

[terraflarex]

I guess this makes it more balanced. Still it seems odd to find WS with fixed CE/VE, especially when SE gave no notice of it.

Namas is a decent amount of damage less than Sidewinder (2.75x vs 5.0 Damage mods), but yeah on long fights, Namas spamming is absolutely amazing for your hate management over time. And while sidewinder is a decent amount of damage higher than Namas, you can't do much when you're face down on the ground, so Namas is the only game in town on Ixion if you ask me. Since you have discovered Namas is a static amount of Enmity, I'm wondering if Stealth Shot affects the enmity on that Weapon skill. I would assume it does, but I'm not sure. I'll re-read your exceptionally thorough enmity tests and see if perhaps I missed it somewhere.

[Oulanbator]

I went ahead and updated the Enmity Table before posting the testing methods.

Damage Dealt: http://kanican.livejournal.com/31338.html

Sorry to come back on this point, but I need some precision.
It seems the website page isn't completed yet because it doesn't explain testing methods.
I read this thread from page 26 hoping to find an answer to my question but didn't find any. It may seem an obvious stupid question, but I'd rather ask :

Do enmity stats affect the enmity generated by dealing damage ?
I'm thinking of people meleing with + or - enmity gear, Blms nuking with enm - gears, enmity food and enmity merits.

Thanks in advance ^^

[VZX]

Regurgitation CE/VE is the next interesting thing to test.
Tried to trio RvB last night, my 200 dmg Regurgitation on Raubhan couldn't even pull the hate from THF/BLM that aggro the mobs with Poisonga

[Byrthnoth]

This is hardly evidence but I have both of the Vampiric set pieces and I can't tell the difference when I use them or not. I've never once broken the aspir cap (believe it's 120 not counting staff and day/weather?) with the mitts and boots on, so if it does anything, it increases accuracy only. When I first got them (around the time FL came out), I did about 30 tests with and without the set and noticed no change in the mean aspir return. Just recently I acquired Morrigan's Cuffs so I've now stopped using the vampiric pieces to save inventory spaces, but I never noticed any difference with or without the set. Some day when I get a chance maybe I'll go take a larger sample and see if I can get some better results.

Drat! That's disappointing but good to know.

Drain and Aspir are pretty hard to get conclusive results from due to their large natural variability. The only other place "Enhances Drain and Aspir" shows up (to my knowledge) is on Diabolos's Pole, which has supposedly been shown to give +25% Potency, +0% Macc. It would be absolutely fantastic if Vampiric Mitts/Boots gave +25% Potency, but based on your description that seems not to be the case.

Oh well! I guess that's just two assaults that I don't need to spam!

[Kaeko]

Just wanted to point out that it looks like the fixed the description of Marduk Legs and it now shows that 'hidden' -4 enmity stat openly.

gogo enmity testing

[Shafted!]

I think it was established that there's a cap of 50% for -enmity, is there a cap on + enmity?

[Kaeko]

I think it was established that there's a cap of 50% for -enmity, is there a cap on + enmity?

Sentinel will give you +100, but I don't know if there's a cap from gear.

[Shafted!]

thanks

[Kaeko]

Tested the SCH merit "Equanimity", the enmity down stratagem for Dark Arts SCH Tier II. Here are the conclusions - I'm too lazy to write out the full procedure, but it's extremely similar to essentially everything else.

First merit grants -10 Enmity. I'm going to assume 5/5 would give -50 enmity.

The enmity down of this JA works in conjunction with the enmity of your gear + merits in the following fashion...

TE = {TE of Action} * [ 100 - {JA Enmity Down} ] * [ 100 - {Gear/Merit Enmity Down} ]

They are not just simply added together then cap at 50. They seem to cap individually cap at -50 then multiple the TE value at the end separately.

This means that the max - enmity you can get using this is -75 using a 5/5 merit Stratagem then casting with -50 enmity from gear and merits.

[Kaeko]

Bumped with enmity values of the new April 09 abilities/spells.

I did not try enspell IIs. If someone wants to test that please do.

Solace 1 CE / 80 VE
Misery 1 CE / 80 VE
Composure 1 CE / 80 VE

Sacrifice 1 CE / 300 VE
Esuna 1 CE / 300 VE
Auspice 1 CE / 300 VE

Enspell IIs ??????

Cura - 50 CE / 100 VE

Cura is a special case for 3 reasons...

1) It is an AoE but the number of players it hits doesn't change the enmity values (the only move I know that would do this). This means if your Cura hits you or hits 6 people, it won't change the enmity values.

2) The enmity generated is not based on the cure formula.

3) The enmity generated is not based static either. It is TIERED. A basic 0 HP stored Misery (or no Misery active) will result in a 50CE/100VE Cura (~34 HP cured). We tried with 26 damage taken resulting in a 54 HP cure Cura and it gave back 100CE/200VE. We then tried with a 10 damage taken resulting in 44 HP cure Cura and it gave back 50CE/100VE. Again, TIERED system.

I'll try to figure the specifics out if I have more time at some point. Table on my blog was also updated. If someone wants to test Enspell II that would be a big help.

[shaddix]

Thank you kind sir.

[Kaeko]

Necro bump to include some updates.

I updated the tables to start including actions that have awkward hate mechanics (e.g. Cura), are affected by hate (e.g. Atonement), or grant enmity change status (e.g. BRD merit songs). Here's an example for BRD.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/17452.html



(1) High Jump Enmity Reduction: ~30% reduction to CE/VE

This is a repost of a test done by Suiram and Nivlakian that was discussed via PM months earlier. I'm just posting it openly so you can see the test methods. There was a KI tester that got a very different value (-50%) but his testing methods were not well documented (doesn't talk about damage he took or the damage he actually did on the high jump). The AF2 legs effect still has to be tested.

Sorry for such a late reply,

I actually saw a test on KI awhile back on this:

High jump hate test - Killing Ifrit - a Final Fantasy community

He seems to claim it's a 50/60% decrease. I think the test you ran is more sound, but the difference is quite large still...

On another note, I haven't really been on much lately - it's been a month-ish since I logged on period. All I see on forums lately is SE related drama, which is sad to see

I'm thinking if nothing happens in the next month (maybe whenever the supposed update is?), I may just ask the others to blow the AV lock mech and see what ppl can collectively come up with (before the game really dies out).

Kaeko

My friend, nivlakian, and I had been talking recently about High Jump enmity reduction. When I hit 37 DRG I did a brief test just to confirm that there was some reduction, but never nailed down the exact amount. He wanted to retest it precisely once his own DRG hit 37, but since I've been out of town this last week with limited playtime, he went ahead and did it anyway and sent me this PM with the info, which I'm passing along to you now to look over.

Niv was on 72RDM/36DRG, Sydok was on 75RDM/37???. The other stuff like gear and enmity merits are mentioned in the text.

So, I tested High Jump with Sydok today.

We used Oil Spills in Garlaige. Although preferable to do things with no gear, i wore AF and yigit hands to raise my defense so it'd do close to 0 damage with phalanx. Sydok had no enmity modifiers except Pumpkin Head II to cancel his 1 enmity merit.

First test:
I pulled with dispel and cast dispel 33 times to cap CE at 10,000. I recast Phalanx then High Jumped which did 3 damage.

Sydok cured me once then cast dispel repeatedly.

After 21 dispels, he momentarily got hate, but it shifted back to me.
He cast dispel again and had hate from then on.

That narrowed my enmity down to between 21 * 320 + 1 (6721) and 22 * 320 + 1 (7041).

From there, I assumed /DRG was -30% hate as a starting point.

----

We used a new slime. I pulled with dispel placing me at 520CE (200 for pull and 320 for dispel). I high jumped and luckily did 0.

520 * 0.7 = 364

Sydok then cast sleepga twice (180 * 2 = 360 CE). We waited for it to wake up. Sydok then cured me for 0. On the 5th time, the slime went for him. He should have had 365 CE at that point.



So, in conclusion, I'm led to believe HJ is -30% CE and I'm satisfied with what we did. I'm willing to test it with you sometime if you'd like to do it cleaner. I didn't feel to bother anyone more than Sydok so I tried to make things work out with just 2 people.

(2) Fan Dance Enmity - (????) +15 according to random player on oldwiki

I will try to test this one myself since he offers no test methods.

Trying to complete the entire table before I quit. Also, for the update, I'll hopefully have the new RNG ranged attack / camouflage mechanics for you guys quickly. It only applies to RNG main right? I'll be on for a couple days to shore up some values so if you're interested in helping and happen to be on Odin just reply here or send me a PM.

[Kirschy]

Much thanks~ Nice to see more updates~

EDIT: Was wondering if a model exists for how CE/VE affect Atonement. I know you had one for a bit which was scrapped, and I've heard that there existed a good formula on JP Wiki. If not, that's something I'd be interested in testing myself~

Also, although I'm on Fenrir, I'd love to help out with the new RNG enmity formulas. If I can help in anyway, just toss me a PM~

[Kaeko]

Big list of unknowns about the quantification of the FFXI enmity system. If it has to do with CE/VE, I'm pretty confident we know everything outside of this list (doesn't include hate list mechanics like pet linked hate, which honestly I don't have an approach for to test).

If anyone wants to help me fill these out I would really appreciate it. Easiest ones are particular abilities that I just happened to miss like Footwork.

**********************

(I) Missing Values of Particular Moves

(BST)
Familiar
Reward
Call Beast
Tame
Feral Howl
Killer Instinct
Fight
Heel
Stay
Sic
Leave Snarl

(DRG)
Spirit Surge
Call Wyvern
Spirit Link
Super Jump
Deep Breathing
Angon
Dismiss

(Monk)
Footwork

(PUP)
Overdrive
Repair
Role Reversal
Ventriloquy
Retrieve

(SAM)
Shikikoyo
Blade Bash

(SMN)
Astral Flow
Elemental Siphon
Assault
Blood Pact: Rage
Blood Pact: Ward
Retreat

**********************

(II) Atonement Formula

I remember Therin ran some tests on this but it was never completed. Studio Gibli has a rough formula but I don't know how it was tested. I may have to go back and redo the whole thing since I can probably get an atonement PLD myself now (or build on Therin's data). It should be based on the current TP used, CE, and VE.


**********************

(III) Special Misc. Cases

* "Cap" of Cura (WHM). Seems to go up in 50CE/100VE increments but not sure where the cutoff and caps are.

* The "Enmity Reduction" effect of Hydro Shot (BLU)

* Hate mechanics involving Ventriloquy (PUP) which switches puppet and user hate

* Hate mechanics involving pets such as Snarl (BST) and actions like BP

* Enmity Reduction of High Jump (DRG) with the use of AF2 legs (Wyrm Brias)

* Enmity Reduction of Super Jump (DRG)

* Enmity Reduction of Super Jump on allies when the DRG has Spirit Surge active.


**********************

Doesn't include new abilities and mechanics from the next patch like ranged attacks

[Kaeko]

Random update:

RDM Enspell IIs have CE. 80CE/240VE

Repraisal is 1CE/80VE

Pianissimo 1CE/80VE

Monomi:Ichi 80CE/240VE

More Edits:

Summoning an avatar or elemental = 90CE/300VE (fairly high?)

Does not change with level or subbing smn.

[Kaeko]

Updates:

Innin - enmity down verified as -20 to start, -10 just before wearing off

DNC table is completed.

Kanican - Enmity Table (DNC)

Pretty much kills any chance of a viable DNC tank. No CE gainers outside cures. Also, fan dance + enmity verified as +15 (wiki person was right).

[Therin]

Atonement bothered me because I got pretty close to getting a formula that directly translated TE to damage, but it seemed to vary within a window of about 10%, and could never explain why the WS topped out at 750 instead of 720.

When I get back to my apartment I'll go perusing through my PMs and Notepad files to find my old tests, and see if I can get some more conclusive results.

I think I came to the conclusion that CE and VE have slightly different formulas, and that's why you see very close to 750 damage often but rarely exactly that amount. Again, I'll look at it when I get back (I'm in class now).

[Kaeko]

Atonement bothered me because I got pretty close to getting a formula that worked but it seemed to vary and could never explain why the WS topped out at 750 instead of 720.

When I get back to my apartment I'll go perusing through my PMs and Notepad files to find my old tests, and see if I can get some more conclusive results.

Sounds good. Frankly going over my PMs with you the results just confused the hell out of me regarding the 750/720 thing.