Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Kaeko]

Issue regarding Flashy Shot. If anyone wants to help me crunch numbers would be much appreciated.

Tested this with Kuuhalee on Odin. 75 RDM/BRD and 75 RNG/RDM using a shortbow and bone arrows on Clips in Qufim.

We evened out hate on the pull, then shot once for 63 damage. I then evened out hate and determined CE gained to be 219.

This leads to a damage to CE modifier of 80/23

Kanican - Enmity Table (Damage Dealt)

Table here says it was a lvl 28 to 29 clipper. Either doesn't matter, we just need to 80/23 modifier.

Hate was evened out, I then cured myself once, then RNG flashy shot (+1 CE to even out out). Then shot once for 62 damage. Resultant CE was 275 damage.

The issue I'm having is with a normal 80/23 modifier, 62 damage would give me 215 CE. I was initially assuming this would be a simple +X enmity gain on flashy shot, but if we do 275/215, it's a +28 enmity increase - a very odd number.

So my options right now are that it's a +28 enmity increase or some other factor. Since Flashy shot's description says it removes level difference penalties, I've been thinking it could be an issue with level correction. For instance, if we use a 80/18 modifier (lvl20/21), we get a nice 275 number. So maybe flashy shot increases enmity by lowering the enemy's level when calculating CE/VE?

[Therin]

Sounds good. Frankly going over my PMs with you the results just confused the hell out of me regarding the 750/720 thing.

Yeah, seriously. Basically, for those of you who didn't see the test, we figured out that X amount of CE limits your damage at exactly 360. Likewise, Y amount of VE also limits your damage at exactly 360 - so if you have all CE or all VE (but not both), you're only going to do 360 damage. In order to do more than that, you need both CE and VE, obviously. Now, from looking at that in such a preliminary fashion it seems that the cap on Atonement's damage would be 720 - but obviously, we know that it is actually 750 because that's what we see in practice.

My assumption is that one of these two things changes the formula so that the actual maximum is 750:

1) TP based - at 100% TP exactly, the maximum would be 720, but since in practice we almost always WS with some amount over 100% TP, the practical maximum increases. If the TP amount changes the formula, we've got three variables and finding a working formula will be extraordinarily difficult.

2) A combination of CE and VE changes the formula. If this was the case I wouldn't have the slightest clue to find out what the formula would be with any given amount of CE/VE.

This is pretty much where I left off before because I couldn't get any farther with the time that I had available. I think I'll revisit some of my tests later on tonight and see if I can come up with anything new.

[Kirschy]

Atonement bothered me because I got pretty close to getting a formula that directly translated TE to damage, but it seemed to vary within a window of about 10%, and could never explain why the WS topped out at 750 instead of 720.

When I get back to my apartment I'll go perusing through my PMs and Notepad files to find my old tests, and see if I can get some more conclusive results.

I think I came to the conclusion that CE and VE have slightly different formulas, and that's why you see very close to 750 damage often but rarely exactly that amount. Again, I'll look at it when I get back (I'm in class now).

I was messing with some basic enmity testing on atonement the other day. At 100TP, 10k CE, 0 VE, I consistantly got 360 damage. At 100TP, 2CE, 10K VE I consistantly got 360 damage.

If there's something in particular I can do to help with the testing, I don't mind putting some more time in~ Just need to know what needs to be tested~

[Kaeko]

I was messing with some basic enmity testing on atonement the other day. At 100TP, 10k CE, 0 VE, I consistantly got 360 damage. At 100TP, 2CE, 10K VE I consistantly got 360 damage.

If there's something in particular I can do to help with the testing, I don't mind putting some more time in~ Just need to know what needs to be tested~

Let me find the PMs with Therin I had and repost it all for you here. Then I'll try to summarize it.

[Kirschy]

Yeah, seriously. Basically, for those of you who didn't see the test, we figured out that X amount of CE limits your damage at exactly 360. Likewise, Y amount of VE also limits your damage at exactly 360 - so if you have all CE or all VE (but not both), you're only going to do 360 damage. In order to do more than that, you need both CE and VE, obviously. Now, from looking at that in such a preliminary fashion it seems that the cap on Atonement's damage would be 720 - but obviously, we know that it is actually 750 because that's what we see in practice.

My assumption is that one of these two things changes the formula so that the actual maximum is 750:

1) TP based - at 100% TP exactly, the maximum would be 720, but since in practice we almost always WS with some amount over 100% TP, the practical maximum increases. If the TP amount changes the formula, we've got three variables and finding a working formula will be extraordinarily difficult.

2) A combination of CE and VE changes the formula. If this was the case I wouldn't have the slightest clue to find out what the formula would be with any given amount of CE/VE.

This is pretty much where I left off before because I couldn't get any farther with the time that I had available. I think I'll revisit some of my tests later on tonight and see if I can come up with anything new.

I can go test 10k CE/10k VE @ 100tp~

[Kaeko]

Therin, did you have +4 ENMITY MERITS for these tests?

Main PM of results from Therin.

Well, first off, my idea to get a sword that gave a TP return of 5 didn't work out. Turns out, I'd need 180 delay to get a TP return of 5, and there's no sword in the game with a delay that low. <_> So, all of these tests will be slightly over 100 TP, I'll list it for every test.

Note: All of these were solo, so consider the initial pulling enmity.

Test I)
1 Dispels
30 second wait
0 Enmity
Atonement at 102% TP: 46 damage

Test II)
10 Dispels
30 second wait
0 Enmity
Atonement at 103% TP: 306 damage

Test III)
20 Dispels
30 second wait
0 Enmity
Atonement at 103% TP: 360 damage

***The result greatly surprised me. Perhaps there's a limit on damage from purely CE? I retested it and got the same result: 360 damage.

Test IV)
32 Dispels
30 second wait
0 Enmity
Atonement at 103% TP: 360 damage

***Clearly a cap.

The next set of tests were somewhat difficult because it required building 100% TP and then losing aggro on a mob without zoning. I tried it in Cape Terrigan and it was pretty much impossible since there's aggro everywhere. I trained around my bunny for like ten minutes but because I couldn't get much distance on him due to constantly zig-zagging past Goblins and Raptors I couldn't get him to despawn (I'm sure this was a pretty hilarious sight if anyone saw me).

Instead, I opted to go somewhere where I wouldn't aggro anything, yet was still targetting mobs strong enough to deal damage to me: Western Altepa Desert (Target: Desert Manticores)

Test V)
1 Silence
Waited for ~400 damage
Atonement with 122% TP (due to getting hit): 0 damage

Test VI)
1 Silence
Waited for ~500 damage (TPed up to like 60 on a seperate mob and let the target manticore hit me until 100% exactly)
Less than 1 second delay after using Sentinel
Atonement with 100% TP: 134 damage

Test VII)
1 Silence
Waited for ~500 damage
1-2 second delay after Sentinel+Invincible
Atonement with 100% TP: 360 damage

***Again, seems to be a cap! Which is odd, because 360+360 is only 720 and I've done tons of 750 Atonements. <_> Anyway, these are the results!

Here was where we left off. I had sent a PM with more tests that I believe were never done:

Hi Again!

I have a couple more tests to try to nail down how this WS works. Do you happen to know what they changed in the update? I'm not sure what exact they 'fixed'.

Make sure to eat the -4 enmity food (Mushroom stew)

TEST1: Effect of TP on damage modifier

Pull with Dispel with 0 enmity then use atonement with 100TP. Simply repeat only using 300TP. This should see if TP affects the modifier.

TEST2: Effect of TP on damage cap

Store 300TP. Use dispel 20 times. This hits the "damage cap" for CE at 360 damage from our testing last time. If TP affects cap, the damage should be higher than 360.

TEST3: Maximum Enmity

Store 300TP. Use dispel 20 times to cap CE. Then when ready, use Sentinel > Invincible > Atonement. This should put you at essentially max stats - max TP, max CE, max (as close as you can get) VE. I just want to see if this is truly going to be 720 damage still. Can you still do 750s now post-patch?

So basically, we are testing for TP variation effects and then making sure we understand the true "cap" on the damage by just maxing out all variables (TP, CE, VE).

Thanks again for helping me with this. If TP does affect the CE/VE modifiers, we may have to test it out. Otherwise we should have everything after this set. If TP does really affect it, you can find it out by just repeating the last series of tests you did at 200/300TP instead of ~100.

Kaeko

Lastly, we worked out a prelim formula at 100TP that was something like...

Damage = CE * 23/256 + VE * X where each category caps at 360

Then, at 300TP, the CE mod becomes 51/256. I sort of don't believe it's this simple, but it does fit with the early tests.

[Kaeko]

Beyond the last quotes I wrote of tests, another general thing I would look for is to completely ignore the VE side of the formula for now and solely focus on CE and TP relationships to damage.

[Kirschy]

10k CE + 10k VE @100tp = 720 Atonement.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9...1102180128.png

Built up CE by self curing about 60 times~
Built up VE by using Sentinel + Invincible right before I used Atonement~

I'm gonna agree with Therin here, I think at a certian TP it breaks the 720 cap, probably around 120TP. I'm fairly good at reaching the 750 on my atonements (except when the mob takes reduces damage!). I'm gonna run some of those tests you designed now~

[FailureMidgard]

10k CE + 10k VE @100tp = 720 Atonement.

Built up CE by self curing myself about 60 times~
Built up VE by using Sentinel + Invincible right before I used Atonement~

I'm gonna agree with Therin here, I think at a certian TP it breaks the 720 cap, probably around 120TP. I'm fairly good at reaching the 750 on my atonements (except when the mob takes reduces damage!). I'm gonna run some of those tests you designed now~

Can you go test with more now? Just cure cheat your mp bar, then be sure to take all your gear off and sentinel right before the WS since you don't have invinc.

[Spekkio]

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/80569...revisited.html
i think some of the data in here might help establish why we get 720 and 750 caps out of atonement. the testing was incomplete and contained conjectures, but the data iirc points toward there being 3 caps for atonement, with 2 of them being the VE and CE capping out at 360 each and that the final damage is computed by summing the VE and CE contributions and multiplying by a TP multiplier with that capping at 750 for the total damage of the ws (before any modifiers like damage type ofc). this would easily explain the reason why 100% TP produces 720 damage at 10k ce/ve but say 150% TP can produce 750 damage at lower values. what would be very interesting to find out (and i don't think i've ever seen it tested) if my understanding of the 3 caps is correct, what CE and VE values cap out the damage from that category, what are the ftp anchors, and what TP value (assuming not using a gorget) will produce 750 damage with capped CE and VE?

[Therin]

Therin, did you have +4 ENMITY MERITS for these tests?

Yes, but I ate Mushroom Stew (-4 Enmity) to offset it.

what would be very interesting to find out (and i don't think i've ever seen it tested) if my understanding of the 3 caps is correct, what CE and VE values cap out the damage from that category, what are the ftp anchors, and what TP value (assuming not using a gorget) will produce 750 damage with capped CE and VE?

This is the next step in regards to Atonement testing; finding the enmity threshold that gives us these caps. Your assessment of the TP multiplier agrees with what I was hypothesizing based off of the results from last year's tests, so it seems like that's how it works. It becomes complicated, however, when we try to find out exactly what the thresholds and multipliers are.

[Kaeko]

Yes, but I ate Mushroom Stew (-4 Enmity) to offset it.

just making sure, thanks

I think what spekkio and others have mentioned is likely the case -

at some TP value, you become able to break 720 and hit 750 for atonements. Would be interesting to see exactly where this is - should be in the low 100s imo.

[Spekkio]

just making sure, thanks

I think what spekkio and others have mentioned is likely the case -

at some TP value, you become able to break 720 and hit 750 for atonements. Would be interesting to see exactly where this is - should be in the low 100s imo.

i don't think we're speaking in the same terms with regard to "breaking 720", or if we are, this may become confusing to readers if they misconstrue. as i understand, atonement damage is calculated as
CalcDmg=(CEDmg+VEDmg)*ftp
if CalcDmg>750
Dmg=750
else
Dmg=CalcDmg

where CEDmg is
if CE*CEMultiplier>360
CEDmg=360
else
CEDmg=CE*CEMultiplier

and VEDMG is the same with VE replacing CE

(yes, the CSes out there want to eat my face off for the inefficient pseudocode above. i know. i wrote it to be as legible as i could make it to people who don't write code, not to be efficient.)

there is no 720 cap written into atonement that i can see. 720 just happens to be the result of using atonement with an ftp modifier of 1.0. this is why the gorgets not only push a 100% atonement to 750 (since the ftp modifier is now 1.1) but also render a 10% increase in damage when CE/VE are not capped. by understanding these figures better, we could make a condition for spellcast that would intelligently decide if an aqua gorget (or whatever gorget you choose that would work with this) would be prudent to increase the damage or if a ritter gorget would be the wiser choice to up the enmity modifier on the damage.

[Kirschy]

I have 4 enmity merits~ I used that -4 Enmity RNG Belt from Ein~

Pulled /w Player B.
I casted Dispel.
Waited ~30 secs.
Atonement @ 100tp - 29 Damage

Repeated twice.

Pulled /w Player B.
I casted Dispel.
Waited ~30 secs.
Atonement @ 200tp - 35 Damage

Accidently repeated the test without the -4 Enmity Belt...

Atonement @ 200tp - 36 Damage

Gonna try test 2 /w 200 TP and capped CE with dispel~

@Failure, What do you mean by test with more? More TP?

[Kaeko]

Compiling Results organized by amount of TP when Atonement used. Also, I think some of Therin's initial results using ~102-103 TP need to be redone at exactly 100TP just for precision's sake. We should really aim to get the exact formula at 100TP at least I think.

Tester: Kirschy
CE: 320
VE: 0
TP: 100%
DMG: 29

Tester: Therin
CE: 1
VE: ~1700
TP: 100%
DMG: 134

Tester: Therin
CE: 1
VE: ~9,900
TP: 100%
DMG: 360

Tester: Kirschy
CE: 10,000
VE: 10,000
TP: 100%
DMG: 720


Tester: Therin
CE: 520
VE: 0
TP: 102%
DMG: 46

Tester: Therin
CE: 3400
VE: 0
TP: 103%
DMG: 306

Tester: Therin
CE: 6,600
VE: 0
TP: 103%
DMG: 360

Tester: Therin
CE: 9,800
VE: 0
TP: 103%
DMG: 360

Tester: Therin
CE: 1
VE: 0
TP: 122%
DMG: 0

Tester: Kirschy
CE: 320
VE: 0
TP: 150%
DMG: 32

Tester: Kirschy
CE: 320
VE: 0
TP: 200%
DMG: 35

Tester: Kirschy
CE: 332
VE: 0
TP: 200%
DMG: 36

Tester: Kirschy
CE: 10,000
VE: 0
TP: 200%
DMG: 440

[Therin]

Yeah, the CE tests were tough for me to do with exactly 100% TP because I didn't have a weapon that would give me exactly that. I would need extra monsters hitting me to get the TP up there, heh.

[Kaeko]

Yeah, the CE tests were tough for me to do with exactly 100% TP because I didn't have a weapon that would give me exactly that. I would need extra monsters hitting me to get the TP up there, heh.

Yea I honestly didn't think a couple 1-2 extra TP would matter, but apparently this might end up being a really anal formula

[Kirschy]

10k CE, 0k VE @ 200 TP - 440 damage

Pulled with Flash, used SS twice, casted dispel ~30 times in +~45 enmity. Waited over 3 min before using Atonement~

I can't use 2hr right now, but I'll cap CE and spam ~500 MP worth of cures, Sent->Atonement.

EDIT: Therin if you can get access to a Berserker's Torque, it lets you control your TP. Makes things a ton easier~

EDIT2: That test probably won't help, it'll just do 750~ Any other tests you can think of?

[Therin]

EDIT: Therin if you can get access to a Berserker's Torque, it lets you control your TP. Makes things a ton easier~

Oho! I didn't think of that. I have one, actually - I'll go play with it after I finish Sky. :D

[Kirschy]

320 CE, 0 VE, 150TP - 32 damage.

Stuffs to do for tonite, so no more testing. If there's a few other data points I can collect later, just post em~