Enmity testing - Still Going!

[Kaeko]

The level of the ally is going to come into play on cure 1-4.

The equation to calculate enmity for that involves the level of the player you cure (doesn't involve the level of the caster actually). If you are looking only at endgame events though, you can just assume it to be 75.

Also, I'm curious. How do you tell your own and others' enmity from gear? What about people changing gear? Does the game have that information for you?

You can't tell others' enmity gear, but from what I understand their enmity gear doesn't come into play when calculating your own TE. The only information the game sends you (without checking them) is the id numbers for the models they currently have equipped. (Shared between different pieces of equipment, and only visible models, so no rings et cetera.) Even if you did check them, you wouldn't be able to get their enmity merits. So calculating the TE of allies isn't something that could be done. You'd have to have the tank running the plugin, as well as yourself.

How would you calculate your own TE? I guess you could input how much enmity you use, but how does that account for gear switches and things like that? I'm guessing for others' you just get every1 to use the plugin and have some data sharing system?

[Taj]

The level of the ally is going to come into play on cure 1-4.

The equation to calculate enmity for that involves the level of the player you cure (doesn't involve the level of the caster actually). If you are looking only at endgame events though, you can just assume it to be 75.

Also, I'm curious. How do you tell your own and others' enmity from gear? What about people changing gear? Does the game have that information for you?

You can't tell others' enmity gear, but from what I understand their enmity gear doesn't come into play when calculating your own TE. The only information the game sends you (without checking them) is the id numbers for the models they currently have equipped. (Shared between different pieces of equipment, and only visible models, so no rings et cetera.) Even if you did check them, you wouldn't be able to get their enmity merits. So calculating the TE of allies isn't something that could be done. You'd have to have the tank running the plugin, as well as yourself.

How would you calculate your own TE? I guess you could input how much enmity you use, but how does that account for gear switches and things like that? I'm guessing for others' you just get every1 to use the plugin and have some data sharing system?

The plugin can get the gear you're currently wearing, that's fairly easy. It can also get your enmity merits. With that, it should be pretty easy to calculate the rest. The problem is only figuring out others' enmity modifiers.

[Kachi]

At the risk of revealing how pedantic I can be...

How about changing the names to something slightly less ambiguous? For example, instead of cumulative enmity, permanent enmity (if I'm understanding correctly that it is effectively permanent), and for volatile enmity, degenerative enmity. Something along those lines. I say because, (aside from being pedantic) both kinds of hate are technically cumulative, and volatile doesn't necessarily specify that it only decreases.

[Kaeko]

At the risk of revealing how pedantic I can be...

How about changing the names to something slightly less ambiguous? For example, instead of cumulative enmity, permanent enmity (if I'm understanding correctly that it is effectively permanent), and for volatile enmity, degenerative enmity. Something along those lines. I say because, (aside from being pedantic) both kinds of hate are technically cumulative, and volatile doesn't necessarily specify that it only decreases.

I just went with the names JPWiki used. Permanent doesnt work that well either because you can stil lose hate in the CE pool, it just doesn't decay naturally. Honestly, Decay and Non-Decay are the most "accurate" terms I can think of. I just went with the old naming convention though.

I suppose if people want to discuss the naming convention as a community, that's fine. It's not like the information is any more or less correct whatever you name it. I'll leave that up to everyone here though.

[Kaeko]

The level of the ally is going to come into play on cure 1-4.

The equation to calculate enmity for that involves the level of the player you cure (doesn't involve the level of the caster actually). If you are looking only at endgame events though, you can just assume it to be 75.

Also, I'm curious. How do you tell your own and others' enmity from gear? What about people changing gear? Does the game have that information for you?

You can't tell others' enmity gear, but from what I understand their enmity gear doesn't come into play when calculating your own TE. The only information the game sends you (without checking them) is the id numbers for the models they currently have equipped. (Shared between different pieces of equipment, and only visible models, so no rings et cetera.) Even if you did check them, you wouldn't be able to get their enmity merits. So calculating the TE of allies isn't something that could be done. You'd have to have the tank running the plugin, as well as yourself.

How would you calculate your own TE? I guess you could input how much enmity you use, but how does that account for gear switches and things like that? I'm guessing for others' you just get every1 to use the plugin and have some data sharing system?

The plugin can get the gear you're currently wearing, that's fairly easy. It can also get your enmity merits. With that, it should be pretty easy to calculate the rest. The problem is only figuring out others' enmity modifiers.

I think even without knowing others' enmity values, it would be useful as a tanking plugin, since the goal is to reach the caps anyways. Finding the level of the player you're curing would be the hardest part I think since it factors into your own enmity. I thinka plugin would look really cool though.

[Taj]

I suppose if people want to discuss the naming convention as a community, that's fine. It's not like the information is any more or less correct whatever you name it. I'll leave that up to everyone here though.

I believe it was Rocl that came up with this exceptional naming scheme:

Cumulative enmity: Kaekos
Volatile enmity: Payus
Total enmity: Ashiras

[Kaeko]

I suppose if people want to discuss the naming convention as a community, that's fine. It's not like the information is any more or less correct whatever you name it. I'll leave that up to everyone here though.

I believe it was Rocl that came up with this exceptional naming scheme:

Cumulative enmity: Kaekos
Volatile enmity: Payus
Total enmity: Ashiras

Payu gets naming rights because of his amazing morale support of our testing. Every 5 minutes in LS while we're testing - "LET'S SALVAGE".

[Tubbers]

I suppose if people want to discuss the naming convention as a community, that's fine. It's not like the information is any more or less correct whatever you name it. I'll leave that up to everyone here though.

I believe it was Rocl that came up with this exceptional naming scheme:

Cumulative enmity: Kaekos
Volatile enmity: Payus
Total enmity: Ashiras

Payu gets naming rights because of his amazing morale support of our testing. Every 5 minutes in LS while we're testing - "LET'S SALVAGE".

The interesting thing about a unit being a Payu:

Whats the plugin say about his Payu-level?
It's over 9000!

I'm in favor of it, except I think Payu should be total, and Ashira should be Volatile.

[Ashira]

I suppose if people want to discuss the naming convention as a community, that's fine. It's not like the information is any more or less correct whatever you name it. I'll leave that up to everyone here though.

I believe it was Rocl that came up with this exceptional naming scheme:

Cumulative enmity: Kaekos
Volatile enmity: Payus
Total enmity: Ashiras

Payu gets naming rights because of his amazing morale support of our testing. Every 5 minutes in LS while we're testing - "LET'S SALVAGE".

LOL


Yes, the Payu in the screenshots was actually me...

lol i'm crying cuz i'm laughing so hard at kae's comment

[Whatinthe]

Ashira and I just tested the VE of provoke. We have it down to between 1792 and 1801. At this point I'm just going to assume it's exactly 1800. Our testing can't get it more precise due to how often the mob chooses to pick targets. I think it's pretty accurate though - at least enough.

I'm pretty confident that despite what that blog claims, Voke is 1800 VE and the decay rate is -60VE/sec. I'm just going on this based on the fact that our tests are fully controlled and I personally don't think theirs were simply because they had no concept of the dual enmity system.

Okay, I appreciate you doing this. The only reason I mentioned it is because Japanese kenshos tend to be precise number-wise, and there was that nagging test of 14 seconds with -50% emnity. Since I'd hate to have people's numbers "tainted" by the wrong base number, I just wanted to make sure that there was actually a test that proved that Provoke was indeed 1800, and not something that was back-calculated. Since voke is a very convenient JA that gives known hate value, I think it'll make calculating other CE/VE value all that much easier.

If the 28 second is based upon person A voking first and getting initial emnity, then my guess is that initial hate is somewhere around 100CE or so. Since additional VE, if any, would have disspiated in the 30+ second before person B voked, initial hate must be in the form of CE.

[Cadsuane]

What's a reasonable method to find out the effects of high jump? Quantifying that would be pretty interesting.

[Whatinthe]

What's a reasonable method to find out the effects of high jump? Quantifying that would be pretty interesting.

You need to be able to miss the actual high jump. This could be accomplished by equipping a weapon with very low skill against a mid-level mob.

I do believe the hate reduction is around -25%, IIRC.

[Tubbers]

What's a reasonable method to find out the effects of high jump? Quantifying that would be pretty interesting.

I think crabs with Scissor guard/Metallic body up might work, if you can fulfill that use some really low base damage weapon like an onion weapon so you hit for 0.

Third Party pull with Silence.
Two testers DRG/RDM and someone with access to dispel.
Both cast dispel 1 time (340 Kaekos each)
DRG/RDM uses high jump (DRG:340 + x;Other:340)
DRG/RDM casts cure 1 for 0 damage until hate is reclaimed.
This will tell you the first thing you need to know to actually understand high jump.

If X is -340, or some other value that makes no sense for percent wise, it is probably a static number, increase the number of times dispel is cast, then cast dispel until hate is retaken (Something like 10x, or 34 if you want to cap it)
If X is some number that makes sense with a percent based decrease (25%, 50%, etc.) then repeat the test the same was as mentioned above and see if the data coincides.

[Gere]

I think crabs with Scissor guard/Metallic body up might work, if you can fulfill that use some really low base damage weapon like an onion weapon so you hit for 0.

Ceremonial Dagger?

[Tubbers]

I think crabs with Scissor guard/Metallic body up might work, if you can fulfill that use some really low base damage weapon like an onion weapon so you hit for 0.

Ceremonial Dagger?

Yeah that should work perfectly, then either Metallic Body or Scissor guard should guarantee you hit for 0.

[Zalius]

wow has a threatmeter =( just copy the form and force everyone in your ls to dl it

[Max™]

Does hitting for 0 give no hate?

[TB]

Does hitting for 0 give no hate?

It does, cause missing an enemy gives hate as well. I would assume its 1 CE.

[Liquidedust]

What's a reasonable method to find out the effects of high jump? Quantifying that would be pretty interesting.

You need to be able to miss the actual high jump. This could be accomplished by equipping a weapon with very low skill against a mid-level mob.

I do believe the hate reduction is around -25%, IIRC.

Wouldn't blinding potions work for this as well(or does jumps somehow ignore actual accuracy?).

[Max™]

Does hitting for 0 give no hate?

It does, cause missing an enemy gives hate as well. I would assume its 1 CE.

Well, misses have to be low hate, our puller sight aggroed a Gob on the way back into camp earlier, I whiffed my first two swings trying to pull it off him, don't remember it even turning red til Voked.

As for Acc, jumps are based on your normal Acc, easy to see when you have a Bard and go from not missing a single jump for an hour, then miss the next two when they afk and Madrigal wears.

Or on War/Drg, capping Polearm for my Drg sub, put on Gaxe and just wail on things, swap to 101 Skill Polearm and miss like you'd expect with that little skill and only +20ish Acc (besides Dex) so yeah, hitting a crab for 0 would probably be easier than aiming to miss, unless you use Blinding Potion or Fancy Specs at night.