Dark Knight Zerg Math

[Fryte]

If it eats, but doesn't 100% remove shadows, chances are Third Eye will absorb it. /sam ftw with 2handers.

[Tubbers]

/sigh

Quizno I realize you've brought this up before, but when you did it you didn't have nice table layouts and pretty graphs. Also your data was a pure swing analysis, whereas I try to factor in base damage as well. What I'm simply trying to do is make an easy to understand practical layout that can help people get a good estimate of their zerg damage with differing conditions and weapons, without doing out the calculations themselves.

Nothing to get leaky about.

You're doing it all wrong though, go back and change KC build to Blitz/BQR!

Please explain to me why you would use a Blitz Ring (1% ~ 5/512) over a Bloodbead ring (50 HP) when your haste is already sitting at capped 25% (130/512 -> 128/512) Haste. If you are subbing NIN, sure use the Blitz Ring, but with DRG sub there is literally no point, it can only hurt you. If you can't afford Dusk Gloves +1 and Speed/Velocious belt, then by all means use the Blitz Ring, but for an absolutely optimal Kraken build it is not necessary to hit the haste cap.

If you're whooshing me somehow, then I fail really, really badly.

[Dioma]

Thinking about my own setup, I have homam feet hands legs and velocious with Rune Chopper giving me 24% Haste, should I opt for Bloodbead Ring, Walahra Turban and Gloom Breastplate or Chaos Burg. +1, Blitz, and some other body piece like Homam? 80 HP on first combo compared to 40 HP on second but there's acc + triple attack.

[Rije]

Tubbers is correct with KC zerg
Hp helps a lot more because KC zerg is practically all SE damage

75hp with non optimal gear for kc grants you 90 swings
12% of 75 is 9... times 90 swings ... gives you 810 damage increase
Bloodbead Ring gives you 540 damage increase...

Since its non-optimal gear, the added 1% haste won't play as much of a role in giving you more swings, as being 1% away from the cap would

With KC, hp is almost as vital as haste, if you can't get withing 3% of the cap

@ Dioma

I'd go with Turban + hp rings + gloom breast

Turban more hp, rings more hp, ... but at your stage, those setups are pretty close

[Tubbers]

Thinking about my own setup, I have homam feet hands legs and velocious with Rune Chopper giving me 24% Haste, should I opt for Bloodbead Ring, Walahra Turban and Gloom Breastplate or Chaos Burg. +1, Blitz, and some other body piece like Homam? 80 HP on first combo compared to 40 HP on second but there's acc + triple attack.

You do not actually have 24% haste with that setup, you have:

Homam: Hands, legs, feet (45/512)
Velocious Belt: (30/512)
Rune Chopper: (46/512)
Total: 121/512 = 23.63% Haste

If you add in Blitz Ring, you get 126/512, or 2/512 short of the 128/512 haste cap. That two haste is 3.15 swings (before Triple attack is factored in), and .7 swings after Triple Attack is factored in (using a 2.5% Triple attack rate = 5% increase in swings, then multiplying by the chance DA does not go off first [.95], you get a 4.75% increase in swings).

So really, it doesn't matter, use whatever you think looks cooler, but if you can upgrade to Dusk Gloves +1 over Homam hands, then that setup (CB+1, Blitz, Homam Corazza) will be superior by a non insignificant amount (somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 damage more)


Rije:
If that 1% (5/512) haste pushes your expected swings up a tier (4.5 more swings), then (on paper) it is worth it. Otherwise you are right.

[Rije]

Tubbers,

Am I correct in that Rune Chopper is actually 47/512, or was that disproven later on in the "Nailing down haste" thread?
I did not read all of it, Pardon the laziness =P

[Lordtrey]

So how does a COR alter the picture of DRK zerg. Would fighters roll double att push non multi hit weapons up? Adding 15-24% DA to RC or Apoc seems awesome to me.

COR allways seems to be left out of the DRK zerg calculations. Esp with the 2h weapons, chaos roll is going to perform well, and adding DA to that (esp if u can toss in a war for the buff) must really beef up those 90+% haste setups /sam.

[Khrno]

So how does a COR alter the picture of DRK zerg. Would fighters roll double att push non multi hit weapons up? Adding 15-24% DA to RC or Apoc seems awesome to me.

COR allways seems to be left out of the DRK zerg calculations. Esp with the 2h weapons, chaos roll is going to perform well, and adding DA to that (esp if u can toss in a war for the buff) must really beef up those 90+% haste setups /sam.

If you have SV Minuets, and still a COR to buff you up, then best rolls would be Fighters + Rogue's Rolls, criticals and DAs are sweet with RC.

[Rije]

Not to mention a cor's ability to reset 2hr and abilities

Cor, if taken, is a staple for a drk rc pty

[Xrave]

This has been beaten to death on KI. All you can do is calculate the number of hits over time, there're too many variables to factor in base damage.

This isn't exactly true... base damage is simply the damage on the weapon times the number of swings. To get the REAL damage, there are many more factors like ATK/DEF difference (pDIF), STR/VIT difference (fSTR), crit chance, etc. the list goes on. However you can still get a good estimate of how it will compare by simply using pDIF, and the data shows that both weapons will put up very respectable damage, with Kraken coming out ahead with a good setup.

When talking about Souleater zergs, base damage refers to the damage the weapon does before Souleater is factored in.

[Leroy]

Me and Ryko got into an Apocalypse VS. KC debate in another thread here. A few simple things came out of it:

When using a 2handed weapon in a max haste setup, if your weapon's base damage before Souleater contributes anything more than 40% of your total damage, it will outperform KC. That is why Apocalypse > KC for zergs on the lower HP races.


I personally like Apocalypse as its Zerg damage shouldn't fluctuate as much as a KC's, since KC can have some really shitty procs in a zerg or some really nice ones. Also, KC loses tons of power when damaged as opposed to Apocalypse since you can't really heal yourself back up. Same advantages go to Rune chopper, except Rune Chopper doen't have the obscenely high base damage, less acc (Minor issue), and requires haste in more slots (means less hp+), making it less of a contender for the zerg title.


The real winner though is Apocalypse + BZ. Catastrophe + BZ will swing more than a KC with better damage per hit.

[Quizno]

Nothing to get leaky about.

I had a longer explanation, but for some reason it got messed up and all that showed up was a quote.

Here is the short version:


I'll be laughing in 2 months when you come to these boards open up a thread on haste builds and zerging and proceed to face palm in the same manner I have been.

Just keep in mind:

"I told you so"

[Leroy]

Dancer is what really has me thinking.

Is the haste dance going to be stackable with the spell? How much haste will it give?

On an offtopic bit, since COR is most likely getting 2 new rolls, what are the odds of a haste roll?

[Rije]

Apoc + bz outdoes everything
If you can have bz doing 93.75% haste, then its orgasmastic

Keep in mind though, Apoc gives 10% haste, Rc gives 9%, so technically you only need 1 more % haste, but point is moot

About the new haste spells
There's no way in hell they'll make the haste cap higher for magic spells
If you add even 1% more haste to the cap, it compounds the brokeness of this
It just might mean you can do this without the use of a brd 2hr, much like a spy's drink + nonSV marches
Still, you have to use bloodweapon, which means you only get one go...

[Leroy]

I seriously doubt anyone thinks they're raising the haste cap. I was wondering if the new dance means we'll get to cap haste without soul voice.

The ability to hit about 50 times in 30 seconds with an 88 base damage weapon is impressive by itself when you only have 3:40 to wait till you can do it again. Hell, hit it with an angon and Dia III, throw in chaos roll + fighter's roll and some minuets and you have a pretty impressive bit of damage before you figure in SE.

That's why I like Apocalypse: It can reach max zerg speed whenever Last Resort's recast is up, and the high base damage + Double Damage procs make it really powerful even without SE+BW. On top of that, once LR wears off throw out a Guillotine for nice bonus damage.


Also, Drain Samba from dancer has really broken potential on these mini zergs, if Haste Samba really does cap off magic haste, since it heals you somewhat -and- boosts damage.

[Ramses]

Question: With rune chopper setup, would my askar korazin with Str +5 att +12 and DA +2% be better than gloom breastplate?

[Meat]

Question: With rune chopper setup, would my askar korazin with Str +5 att +12 and DA +2% be better than gloom breastplate?

No, stick with the breastplate, every other "enhance souleater" piece can be replaced with haste.

[RKenshin]

Sometimes you get unlucky and eat a 2400 dmg Primal Drill, I often survive the first 40 seconds then force DC my character and log on alive perhaps half the time.

Why do you DC?

JoL is the weakest 'HNM' in the game offensively, you simply walk away when your zerg is finished and stand with the tanks and laugh in JoL's face. He'll just sit there and cast weak spells over and over, with the only chance for taking damage being a -ga (or maybe a tier IV if you're not /NIN, but either way it's rather pathetic). Just a Shell IV and they're easily survivable and curable, and it would take less MP to cure you for that time than it would to raise you as long as you have decent tanks that aren't busy BGing or picking their nose. Even with my best zergs on JoL I never have hate for more than 30s to 2 minutes after Souleater wears off. Your hate disapates incredibly fast when you take no actions in this game, and it's multiplied when you take damage in addition to producing no extra hate. Tanks should be able to pull it off you rather fast.

Only thing that ever kills me on JoL zergs are slow cures followed by a WS/boosted attack for more than my HP, otherwise it usually isn't a problem. Even getting hit for 1.1k I've been able to drain back all of it through Dread Spikes. Regardless though, if I die I die during the zerg, not after the zerg. DCing after 40 seconds seems pointless both because it takes about 45s to DC (so you're spending an extra 25s getting hit by JoL when you could've walked away), and if you're going to die at all it should be during the zerg and not after (but DCing doesn't save you from the zerg death).


And on the topic of HP, in regard to the general HP theme in this post, I feel like I'm beating the dead horse by asking this but any career DRK or DRK that wants to perform at a high potential should have a decent set of dark magic gear and a decent set of merits, with decent gear. You don't necessarily have to have more than what's obtainable on AH, or be the Bill Gates of FF, which is why I'm stressing decent.

With that in mind, how do you not have at least like ~1.8-2.3k HP on a zerg if you match/exceed the previous description?

Aside from flukes with Drain II getting resisted (stupid DS is crap compared to ES), even a Taru with a very basic set of HP gear should be able to DS+Drain II (no reason ever to not use Drain II, unless JoL is in dark mode <.<) and push totals of about 2k with gear/food/etc as long as they have the normal support a kraken DRK should get for a zerg. My gear is far from perfect still but I've pushed over 2.6k, and my race/small improvements in gear don't allot to a difference of almost 1k HP. Heck most of my zerg gear isn't anything special. It just feels wierd to see people talk about zerging with like 1.5-1.8k HP in any situation so often considering all this.

[Tubbers]

I'll be laughing in 2 months when you come to these boards open up a thread on haste builds and zerging and proceed to face palm in the same manner I have been.

Just keep in mind:

"I told you so"

More information, repeated calculations, etc. can only further help to prove or correct my own calculations. As I said before, I was trying more so to get the information across in a nicer format, with nice pretty graphs that make the information easier to see and understand. If another thread pops up eventually, I'd be thrilled if it had new information such as practical testing against mobs with extremely high HP, etc.. As I said before, it's really nothing to get leaky about -- you're choosing to clik on the link to read it, you don't have to if you don't want to, so please don't complain. Now what you can complain about is incorrect math or assumptions, or other such errors, I would actually appreciate it if you could find and point out something that was wrong, because I want the information to be accurate.

You can laugh at me if you want, I really don't care, what I do care about is the next step in the process, real testing. If we can find and map the defense and evasion of certain mobs, your exact accuracy and pDIF can be found. We can potentially find the linear shift (time delay) before you actually start attacking the mob to figure out when you want to activate certain abilities, etc. There is still a lot of work to be done to perfect a DRK zerg.


Ruke:
You're right about the HP thing, but I can understand why for some zergs (basically Bahamut V2) you wouldn't cast Drain II.

You're going to use at the very least Blood Weapon after the Drain II, and when Drain II finishes casting, most if not all people should already be wailing on Baha. So you're delayed by a good few seconds to use Blood Weapon, and get in melee range if you weren't already. My LS usually kills Baha in about 20 seconds or so, maybe 25, but certainly less than 30, so missing out on those ~5 seconds at the beginning of the fight can be huge. It is ambiguous if this will help you or hurt you. If you have good practice and you can get it off with only a short time penalty, then it will be worth it, otherwise it may be best to just auto attack.

On anything else though Drain II can be cast before the Zerg part begins, and it is worth casting.

[Wulfgang]

DCing after 40 seconds seems pointless both because it takes about 45s to DC (so you're spending an extra 25s getting hit by JoL when you could've walked away), and if you're going to die at all it should be during the zerg and not after (but DCing doesn't save you from the zerg death).

After 60 seconds you are doing zero damage with the club anyways; probably makes sense though to get out of melee range, but then you lose the screenshots of BLMs skilling up on charmed melees with Perdu Sickles.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7503/skillupxb8.jpg

I think as long as you are swinging the club for 60 seconds, it doesn't really matter. Although I would like to know how the hell you get 2600 HP, subbing MNK and full Drain II? I have all the standard HP gear (Cassie, Intruder if not subbing DRG, Gigant, BQ, etc) and am Elvaan as well.