Dark Knight Zerg Math

[Zekyr]

Is rune chopper going to *heal* you for the amount the base damage does? If so.. that's a fuck ton of HP. o.o;

Likewise, how much is BZ going to heal?

Yes, you hit for (base damage) + (SE damage), lose the (SE damage), then heal for (base damage) + (SE damage), basically healing you for the base damage per hit. With a RC it's actually pretty easy to eat TP moves as long as they don't oneshot you and suck back your HP quickly, however your damage suffers a noticeable drop while your HP is low.

[Mojo]

Uh...yeah. It was supposed to be DRK/SAM for BZ, I just made a typo. Hasso was still figured into the delay though. I would definitely agree that BZ isn't that impressive unless you happen to have Apoc. For the sake of completeness, I went ahead and figured RC vs BZ.

DpH(RC) * HpS(RC) = DpH(BZ) * HpS(BZ)
DpH(RC) * 1.92    = DpH(BZ) * 2.29
DpH(RC)/DpH(BZ)   = 1.19~

You would only need to hit 1.19x harder with RC than BZ to overcome the difference in hits per second. This is also comparing BZ at its best to a decent but not maxed RC. Every point of Haste you don't have for BZ(Dusk+1, Speed Belt, etc.) will have a significant impact while it's actually quite easy(assuming you have Homam) to cap RC Haste.

[Tubbers]

First -- Thanks everyone for your parses, I'd be adding my own parses myself, except I zerg on DRK once in ... not in the last three months at least. If you could all continue to record parses and post them with what setup/songs you have that would be extremely useful.

The point of my negativity is that in 2 months nobody is going to remember a damn thing from this thread

Thanks, apparently you were wrong.


Mojo:
The FFXI calculator is actually outdated and marginally incorrect. Kirschy discovered (I hope I spelled that right) a breakdown of haste gear, at the time I made the OP Kirschy was only at the first step of this discovery, which has now been proven wrong. The shorthand is that Haste is on a 1024 scale, and the detailed post can be found here. While the caps remain unchanged, the individual pieces and haste cap for non-RC are different. The delay in the FFXI Calculator is something like: CEILING(DELAY_WEAPON * (1024-HASTE)/1024); however, the delay from Kirschy's tests seem to show that the ceiling is different, because Kirschy was able to obtain a delay of ~33.43 with the Relic Scythe (999 delay normally).

Thanks for the input/math.


Ruke:
How much do you normally do with a KC zerg on DL? How about a BZ zerg? This is by far the most useful thing to come up, if you take into account the ~3300 damage you took, that's probably another 1000-2000 damage you could have done. Did you also have SV Minuets? I'm assuming you didn't, and if you take this into account, that puts you inside of my bracket for my original calculations. If you happen to know what attack you had that would be helpful to know, but even without this your parse is extremely helpful, and I think given some new data that's been out I'll be able to rework the numbers to give a more accurate calculations.

[RKenshin]

Is rune chopper going to *heal* you for the amount the base damage does? If so.. that's a fuck ton of HP. o.o;

Likewise, how much is BZ going to heal?

As another poster said it's basically what the weapon would hit for without Souleater. Which, ends up being a shitload of healing power when done right. I took about 3.5k damage that DL parse and almost exclusively healed myself to full off of curing myself for about 100 damage each swing (at almost two swings a second).

BZ would be swinging twice as often, but hits for about 40 damage each swing? So it's a bit less than RC, but still effective at accomplishing the same result.

Ruke:
How much do you normally do with a KC zerg on DL? How about a BZ zerg? This is by far the most useful thing to come up, if you take into account the ~3300 damage you took, that's probably another 1000-2000 damage you could have done. Did you also have SV Minuets? I'm assuming you didn't, and if you take this into account, that puts you inside of my bracket for my original calculations. If you happen to know what attack you had that would be helpful to know, but even without this your parse is extremely helpful, and I think given some new data that's been out I'll be able to rework the numbers to give a more accurate calculations.

Results are literally all over the place from zerg to zerg. It's hard to get a good result to reflect a weapons max potential.

However my best results are as follows... I'll keep it to within a 30 second interval to be fair, although be aware that not all fights are over in 30 seconds which is a fault of all these weapons in different ways. It's worth nothing I don't count Drain II damage in the results as well.

BZ
High of 15.3k over a 30 second period. Conditions were just about perfect for this weapon (which still falls about 3% haste short of the haste cap). However I do not have Gloom Breastplate, so this setup is missing a major piece. This would've upped the 15k damage to about 18k damage.

15-20k damage appears to be the max damage possible in a 30 second interval (without Catastrophe).

RC
High of 18.5k over slightly less than a 30 second period. Nearly perfect conditions, although less damage taken during the 2h and SV minuets could have increased potential a little further.

18-23k damage appears to be the max damage possible in a 30 second interval.

KC
High of 19k over a 30 second period. Not quite perfect conditions. 5-10% below acc cap so SV madrigal could've increased the potential a little further, and I was lacking the haste amounts I have now.

19-24k damage appears to be the max damage possible in a 30 second interval (without Catastrophe).

Keep in mind all of those are strictly based on memory of parses, observations of myself/others, and experience with the weapons. Those are not calculated totals or mathematical estimations. I estimated a 5k range for each as a max potential due to outside uncontrollable factors.

And no, I did not have SV minuets for the RC zerg I posted. Based on the parse results and my HP at the time, it would appear that RC had a range of 110-150 a hit. Can only assume this means the average would be about 130 a hit. I had 375 + 70 attack (food) at the time.

[Breemer]

Sorry to bring this up again but there has been some debate in ls as to whether sword strap and/or haste samba stack with the -25% delay from hasso and db3? I know both cannot stack as that would put us at 101.3% haste so do either of them or are we capped at -25%?

[RKenshin]

Haste Samba doesn't stack.

Sword Strap helps but doesn't stack in the way you would think as it's applied separately before all delay/haste reductions iirc. In the end using something like RC, you're likely best off with a Pole Strap. Either that or it just wouldn't matter.

[Tubbers]

Both of them do "stack" but they are delay modifications, not haste. It factors in as a separate multiplication and not an addition to haste, so it doesn't have as profound an effect. There isn't much difference between using a Polearm strap and Sword Strap, maybe a hit or two depending on how lucky/unlucky you get with double attack.

[Quizno]

Thanks, apparently you were wrong.

A necro bump after three months by a guy asking how much HP DL had... yeah, I'm so wrong.

Most people take this information for "granite" now.

[Darus Grey]

RC
High of 18.5k over slightly less than a 30 second period. Nearly perfect conditions, although less damage taken during the 2h and SV minuets could have increased potential a little further.

18-23k damage appears to be the max damage possible in a 30 second interval.

KC
High of 19k over a 30 second period. Not quite perfect conditions. 5-10% below acc cap so SV madrigal could've increased the potential a little further, and I was lacking the haste amounts I have now.

19-24k damage appears to be the max damage possible in a 30 second interval (without Catastrophe).

Curiously did you only have bard buffs for most of these?

Cause it seems to me if your LS frequently uses corsairs than Fighter's Roll/Rogue's Roll would have the potential to make RC close the gap with KC or exceed it.

For anyone more math inclined than me, how would 18% crit and 18% DA rate add up into RC numbers?

[Quizno]

18% DA would add...

[(100+New DA Total) / (100+Old DA Total) - 1] x 100% more hits.

going from 7% DA to 25% DA for instance would be an improvement of about 16.8% in the number of hits.

going from 0% to 18% would be an improvement of 18.0%.

Crits is a little different, but not a difficult calculation if you have the equations.

[Alexandor]

I'd like to ask for some advice please ;x

At the moment I'm using DRK/MNK with Merc Kris for zergs since my GAxe still isn't caped and I don't have Steel Cyclone yet.

I assume 6% haste from my Swift Belt and Dusk feet (25hp) beats an Ocean Sash (45hp) and Marine M Boots (60hp) = +80 HP? Just making 100%ly sure. I can get 1960HP (14% Haste) as hume with Carbonara w/o Drain II. Now just the 2nd "dumb" question ><; Someone spoke about max HP build w/ Kraken Club, same goes for that case as well? Since I'm prolly going to borrow 1 for the next zerg. It just irritates me since the delay on those 1-handed weapons is so low to begin with.

Help appreciated, ty

[Spekkio]

perhaps this is a stupid question, but wouldn't the sword strap outperform the pole strap for this? we know that the sword strap applies multiplicatively and not additively with haste, that point's been driven into the ground a dozen times. the strap cuts the base delay directly before we try to apply haste calculations. i am already aware of this. while it may not work in the way we'd like, unless my math is wrong, that doesn't mean it's not an effective choice, however.

the sword strap will remove 3% from your base delay. the reciprocal of the delay (seconds/swing) is swings/second meaning that the sword strap yields (97/100)^-1=~1.0309 or about a 3.1% increase in swings/second. the pole strap meanwhile will increase your swings/second by 2% for the obvious reason that every swing has a 2% chance to count twice. wouldn't that make the sword strap just a hair superior to the pole strap or do i just not get it?

[ubermonkey]

wouldn't that make the sword strap just a hair superior to the pole strap or do i just not get it?

From my (admitedly limited) understanding, on average they both add the same number of swings (2 I believe), but pole strap could proc more, and could proc on your post zerg steel cyclone.

Of course it could proc less too.

[RKenshin]

What ubermonkey said. I also wear Brutal Earring for that reason with RC.

A necro bump after three months by a guy asking how much HP DL had... yeah, I'm so wrong.

Most people take this information for "granite" now.

All information gets taken for granite eventually, no matter how important or groundbreaking it is. Welcome to the club!

Curiously did you only have bard buffs for most of these?

Cause it seems to me if your LS frequently uses corsairs than Fighter's Roll/Rogue's Roll would have the potential to make RC close the gap with KC or exceed it.

For anyone more math inclined than me, how would 18% crit and 18% DA rate add up into RC numbers?

Our DRKs don't get that spoiled. We have at most one BRD for buffs usually, and no CORs or any other forms of buffs. But I could figure out the actual effect for it from the parse I posted.

Using the averages from that parse, 10% DA on top of 7% DA should add about 3 more swings. There were 50 swings total (48 hits, 2 misses), taking the 7% DA away there would have been 46 swings with no DA. Adding 17% DA from here brings you to a new total of about 53 swings, 3 more than before. Assuming they land and at a 363 melee average, this adds 1089 damage.

Critical hits aren't really so great for damage as the bulk of each hit comes from SE. Using the new number of hits from above (51), this would add about 5 more criticals-hits in place of what would normally be a regular hit. Assuming they land and at a 456 average, you subtract 363*5 from 456*5, for 465 additional damage.

All together, in combination those rolls would add about 1554 damage to the parse I posted earlier. Not as great as you would think, likely better off doing Fighter's/Chaos if any.


EDIT: I misread the post and thought you wanted to know what an additional 10% DA/crit-rate would add.

For an additional 18%, which is incredibly unlikely for both rolls, using the same methods as above:

DA's would add: ~7 more swings, 2541 damage.

Crits would add: ~9 more crits, 837 damage.

Total: 3378 damage.

Total added to the parse: 21,117

That's strictly from melee damage. I took out 1101 from Drain II/Dread Spikes... Including that it would be 22218.

[Darus Grey]

Thanks for taking the time to figure it out, I appreciate it.

Asked 18% because thats most common result for situations I'd use it in(if I don't get 11/10/lucky for zerg buffs I just bust fold reroll).

It's good to know you can get very close performance for significantly less money(or put KC money towards something more useful like Dusk+1) and not have to feel like a gimp for it.

[kenshyn]

Anyone redo the math after this update?????

[Spekkio]

Anyone redo the math after this update?????

it's dead, jim.

as best i understand it, b zagnal might work to a point if you still shot for the 80% cap, but it wouldn't be pretty i think. mkris still kinda works but is no kclub. kclub is again the top dog, with oclub fitting somewhere in there.

[Sifer]

copy/psate from my ls forums. I didnt include kraken or ridill cos they didnt change.

(Old)Rune Chopper (15% desprate blows, 10% hasso, 25% gear, 44.3% haste and double soulvoice march)
haste= 93.3%
delay= 504 * (1-0.933)= 33.768 delay= 0.5628 seconds
rounds in 30 seconds= 53.3
swings in 30 seconds=53


(Old)Bahamut Zagnhal(25% job abilities, 18% gear, 44.3% haste and march)
haste=87%
delay=480 * (1-0.87)= 62.4 delay=1.04 second
rounds in 30 seconds=28.8
swings in 30 seconds= 56 (average)


(new)Rune Chopper
haste=80%
delay=504 * (1-0.8)=100 delay= 1.68 seconds
rounds in 30 seconds=17.85
swings in 30 seconds=17
nerf =17/53= 32% of old damage


(new)Bahamut Zaghnal
haste=80%
delay=480 * (1-0.8)=96 delay= 1.6 seconds
rounds in 30 seconds=18.75
swings in 30 seconds=36 (average)
nerf=36/56= 64% of old damage


(new)Fortitude axe
haste=80%
delay=504 * (1-0.8)= 100 delay=1.69 seconds
rounds in 30 seconds=17.85
swings in 30 seconds=25
compared to old chopper= 25/53=47% of old chopper damage


in short,

Bahamut Zaghnal > Fort Axe > Any great sword or zaghnal >Chopper

[RKenshin]

From the Haste thread.

Well, assuming it's just a hard cap and not a cap on the various forms of haste... The max potential with 2500 HP, 100% acc, 80% haste, 7% DA, and 2.5% TA look like this for the following 2h weapons:

Bahamut's Zhagnal: ~38 swings for ~12540 damage
Fortitude Axe: ~28 swings ~10830 damage
Apocalypse: ~19 swings for ~9120 damage
Rune Chopper: ~19 swings for ~7790 damage

And, under the same assumptions (except of course, with only 68.3% haste), these are the values for 1h weapons:

Kraken Club: ~96 swings for ~29760 damage
Ridill: ~48 swings for ~16320 damage
M. Kris: ~59 swings, for about 18000 damage.

All are over the course of 30s. The values above are all under absolutely perfect circumstances, and as such are just about impossible to reach... But they reflect the relations between them pretty accurately.

Not really much else to calculate. Multi-attack weapons rein supreme once again for zerging.

[Sesshoumaru]

I have no clue about this but got into talking with my drk friend and I justed wanted to know if Apoc(relic scythe) is still worth getting for a Drk?
for Zerg it seems not so much.
How about for non zerg type things when a Drk wouldn't be hitting the haste cap (ie. no double SVM)?