FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

[Draylo]

All we got from TOAU is that Aht is in a two-pronged fight with the beastmen and that a Yagudo Shogunate (same shogunate that supplied warriors to the Yagudo Theocracy during the Crystal Era) is warring with them in the east. The same shogunate that sent Gessho to investigate the superweapon Aht had been working on. What's unclear is if the far-east Yagudo and Tenzen's lands are the same.

Granted Razfahd wanted to annihilate all enemies using the Alexander, it'd be no surprise if that war in the East ended since Nashmiera became empress of Aht.

The Mamool Ja should technically no longer fear Aht since the aggression has stopped, the Lamia have a grudge against their creators so they should still be hostile and the Trolls were hired by Martial Maestro Megomak IIRC to capture the Astral Candy for his own desires? It's been a while.

That would depend on if Aht kept the AC. That was the whole reason the beastmen were attacking, they wanted the Astral Candescence. Even if the war was put down between Aht and the east, there was still the emptiness problem. I also remember them shedding more light on the situation over there with the storyline of the Hume Serpent general.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Do people still read this thread? No idea.. But I'll ask anyway..

So I'm having to redo all of the Windurstian missions, and two things really confused me:

1. The whole Karaha-Baruha + Fenrir + Joker coming back to life, thing. I understand that Karaha brought Joker to life, so when Karaha died summoning Fenrir, Joker died with him. Then the Ace Cardians bring Joker back to life, which in turn brings Karaha back to life, but where does Fenrir come into play in all of this? Didn't Fenrir just leave the Full Moon Fountain after the summoning in Sarutabaruta? And is Joker still the same Joker created by Karaha? Because it sounds as if Joker is actually Fenrir.. But they're also saying the Bearer of Darkness is half Karaha and half Fenrir.. Ugh, this never seemed so confusing the first time I did this <.>;

2. They also talk a lot about the complete summoning that Karaha performed in Sarutabaruta against the Yagudo, but they make it sound a lot like Fenrir was used against his will.. Which doesn't really make sense, according to the WotG mission's explanation. Fenrir quite clearly states that their pact shall be honored, as if there was some sort of agreement in place, which I always just understood to be that Fenrir would offer his help, but that the one who summoned him would have to sacrifice his life in the process. It just seems like present missions suggest it was a forceful summoning, while past missions suggest it was an agreement between the two.

halp plz D:

Also, our summoner experts are back to paying attention to this thread. Help me out here.

[Draylo]

Also, our summoner experts are back to paying attention to this thread. Help me out here.

Odin did it.

[ronin sparthos]

That would depend on if Aht kept the AC. That was the whole reason the beastmen were attacking, they wanted the Astral Candescence. Even if the war was put down between Aht and the east, there was still the emptiness problem. I also remember them shedding more light on the situation over there with the storyline of the Hume Serpent general.

Im rusty but didn't the Mamool Ja only want the Astral Candy because they feared Aht might unleash the equivalent of a WMD on them, effectively wiping them out? I think it was during that cutscene where Gessho goes to visit their council or something.

The emptiness problem was referenced by Tenzen but it's still unclear if his lands are the same as the Shogunate Aht is/was at war with. Both places should be the same though.

Gadalar's story seemed pretty self-contained from what I remember. He got recruited by Rughadeen after fighting on the eastern front against the Yags. The elf chick that jumped sides to save her subordinates comes back and an awesome cutscene ensues?

The serpent general quests are still on my top 10 best quests in this game.

@Tsuko

On #2, given the timeline tomfoolery, the original explanation of Fenrir being used against his will never actually happened because in fact Karaha failed, the Yagudo attacked and Windurst was destroyed in the process in the original timeline.

Once Karaha (Robel) returned from the world of strife back to the Crystal War due to Lilith's interference, he was able to actually complete the pact with Fenrir since we're led to believe he had multiple years to perfect the errors that failed Windurst the first time. He shared the secrets with his Crystal Era self and thus both are able to rout the Yagudo, protect Windurst and make reality out of what was an idealized timeline.

[Azat]

1. The whole Karaha-Baruha + Fenrir + Joker coming back to life, thing. I understand that Karaha brought Joker to life, so when Karaha died summoning Fenrir, Joker died with him. Then the Ace Cardians bring Joker back to life, which in turn brings Karaha back to life, but where does Fenrir come into play in all of this? Didn't Fenrir just leave the Full Moon Fountain after the summoning in Sarutabaruta? And is Joker still the same Joker created by Karaha? Because it sounds as if Joker is actually Fenrir.. But they're also saying the Bearer of Darkness is half Karaha and half Fenrir.. Ugh, this never seemed so confusing the first time I did this <.>;

Spoiler: show

Fenrir and Karaha were both bound together due to the type of summoning pact. when Karaha died tho it was unexpected that Fenrir got sucked into whole mess. Karaha had bound his soul to the joker doll, maybe as a cheat to avoid the whole death thing, so when Joker is revived Fenrir spirit is somehow able to inhabit it while his power is bound to Karaha in that creepy darkness creature.
Joker then starts working to free his essence from karaha so that he can become whole again and restore the fountain.

2. They also talk a lot about the complete summoning that Karaha performed in Sarutabaruta against the Yagudo, but they make it sound a lot like Fenrir was used against his will.. Which doesn't really make sense, according to the WotG mission's explanation. Fenrir quite clearly states that their pact shall be honored, as if there was some sort of agreement in place, which I always just understood to be that Fenrir would offer his help, but that the one who summoned him would have to sacrifice his life in the process. It just seems like present missions suggest it was a forceful summoning, while past missions suggest it was an agreement between the two.

Spoiler: show

complete summoning is a perfect summoning that uses the life force of the summoner to call forth Fenrir himself rather then a portion of his power in standard avatar form. The very act of it is a forceful summoning of Fenrir, something Fenrir really doesn't want to involve himself in.

The pact he is referring to can either mean the one just created, or can be the original pact created by the kuluu to aid the people long ago. I tend to lean towards the former tho, at least that was how I interpreted it.

Either case Fenrir can be picky what he wants to help with, he's seen the future knows what going to happen and is content to let time run its course. Altho he is impressed with people who will stand up to their fates in a attempt to change it,one of the reasons he honored the first pact way back in zilart times to fight the zilart.

[Jeryhn]

1. The whole Karaha-Baruha + Fenrir + Joker coming back to life, thing. I understand that Karaha brought Joker to life, so when Karaha died summoning Fenrir, Joker died with him. Then the Ace Cardians bring Joker back to life, which in turn brings Karaha back to life, but where does Fenrir come into play in all of this? Didn't Fenrir just leave the Full Moon Fountain after the summoning in Sarutabaruta? And is Joker still the same Joker created by Karaha? Because it sounds as if Joker is actually Fenrir.. But they're also saying the Bearer of Darkness is half Karaha and half Fenrir.. Ugh, this never seemed so confusing the first time I did this <.>;

In creating Cardians, a portion of the creator's soul goes into giving a Cardian its autonomy. If the creator of a Cardian dies, the lifeforce that powered the Cardian dies with it. Joker was created by Karaha-Baruha, and when he died, Joker thus became inoperable. His shell resided in the House of the Hero (named for Karaha-Baruha's deeds in saving Windurst during the siege) until present day.

The Ace Cardians used the power of mana orb technology in order to jumpstart Joker. The consequence of this was to bring Karaha-Baruha's soul back from the other side, all of it. The actual soul of Karaha-Baruha was contained by a particular mana orb (this is the same mana orb that a player acquires when they defeat Fenrir after reach rank 10 in Windurst) - the same mana orb that powers Joker. The persona that Joker assumes in present day is that of Fenrir.

The "Bearer of Darkness" is some remnant left from Karaha-Baruha's mind, body, soul or whatever. There's not really a clear explanation as to what it actually is as opposed to the idea of what it is - a Karaha-Baruha that it separated from Fenrir through death somehow, Joker being Fenrir itself.

At the end of the Siege of Windurst, Fenrir's aura became so intense that the two Karaha-Baruhas could not maintain the strain summoning despite the use of the Gleipnir to try and control it. Both of them were consequently absorbed into the avatar's lifeforce and they were bound to its spirit due to the way the Gleipnir imposes the summoner's will onto the avatar. Normally, its the other way around, were the avatar tests the summoner's strength, and when they are defeated, they are forced to respect that person through a pact made with that avatar.

Fenrir, without its summoners to impose their will upon it, became uncontrollable was easily manipulated by Tzee Xicu the Manifest into leaving Sarutabaruta for Castle Oztroja. At Castle Oztroja, the plans made between Lekho and the Spitewarden are revealed - the plan being using the Bow of Light to end the lives of the summoners and the avatar while simultaneously decimating the Yagudo Theomilitary's stronghold.

The Bow of Light is used by Perih Vashai to put Fenrir down while its being distracted by the player and Lehko. Due to the strain of using the Bow, Perih loses her eyesight, but Fenrir passes away, along with the combined soul of its summoners.

2. They also talk a lot about the complete summoning that Karaha performed in Sarutabaruta against the Yagudo, but they make it sound a lot like Fenrir was used against his will.. Which doesn't really make sense, according to the WotG mission's explanation. Fenrir quite clearly states that their pact shall be honored, as if there was some sort of agreement in place, which I always just understood to be that Fenrir would offer his help, but that the one who summoned him would have to sacrifice his life in the process. It just seems like present missions suggest it was a forceful summoning, while past missions suggest it was an agreement between the two..

Because of the use of the Gleipnir, it WAS a forced summon. It was specifically designed to put a stranglehold on the Great Beast. Fenrir acquiesces that the pact will be "honored" because it has no choice in the matter.

Normally, when an avatar is summoned, it sends out a portion of its power to aid its caller. Fenrir had no such choice, and was literally dragged out of the Full Moon Fountain by the Gleipnir in its full being.

This explains why a single avatar produced by a pair of summoners who had little to no experience summoning was able to completely decimate the entire Yagudo force. This also explains why when Perih uses the Bow of Light against the avatar, it encounters true death... And why Carbuncle makes it a mission to leech energy from the Celestial avatars in an effort to revive the fallen Fenrir (see: Waking the Beast - the "Beast" referring to Fenrir) (see also: The Moonlit Path, which requires you to receive the blessings from the Celestial avatars in order to create an object that will aloow you to call Fenrir Prime).

[Tsuko_Asura]

That clears up a few things, but I still feel like they could have done a better job harmonizing the two mission lines. Thanks.

Unrelated, but did anyone else notice that Robel(Karaha) was willing to summon Fenrir prematurely and alone in the beginning of the storyline? We obviously weren't aware of what he was doing when the mission debuted, but he quite plainly took his summoning stance at the fort right before reinforcements arrived. Seemed a bit odd.

[Jeryhn]

I think that red sphere he produces is his Quietus Sphere that he uses on you in the final BC, the one move that causes random instant death.

The storyline makes it very clear throughout Windurst's WotG story that certain things are not to happen until the appropriate time. This is probably because of the Spitewarden's foreknowledge of the Crystal War's events.

[Tsuko_Asura]

He never actually used that attack on me in the BC, so I suppose that's possible. His summoning stance and that ability are identical though.

[Spira]

Fairly certain this is incorrect. Doesn't Carbuncle want you to gather and summon all of the celestial avatars so they can experience Vana'diel, and hopefully not attempt to revert it to paradise when they're finally awakened completely? I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the situation was akin to taking someone to Disney so they don't blow up Florida.

foggy memory but that was what I seem to remember. will have to go back and rewatch to confirm it. i'm not sure celestials, when manifested in Vana'diel, will only have the revert to paradise notion when awoken. never really remembered that part. then again, its kinda difficult when you've bits of a story told to you over a 9 year period.

--
to the part about Aht Urhgan and its wars.
The 3 beastmen forces are definitely after the astral candy, probably for varying reasons but the underlying one seems to be so that the Empire doesn't wipe them out when they revive the iron colossus.
the Far east, which is at war with the Near east is a different story..

theres the Mikado, a seat of power of some entity in the far east battling Aht Urhgan. Gessho is a spy from there.. so it might be referring to the Yagudo theomilitary.
then theres Tenzen and the far east Empire he belongs to that is also at war, fighting "barbarians". There isn't any indication the two are linked, so its hard to say.

---
the events of the battle for Windurst didnt change very much with or without WotGs interference. Karuha-baruha succeeded in our 'original' timeline in completing the summoning, assuming our original timeline wasn't tampered to begin with. Robel only helped because he really didnt want it to fail like it did in Liliths reality, for Star Sybils sake. I think the only things that changed was that fenrir was controlled by tzee xicu and brought to castle O. don't seem to remember that happening in the original storyline.

[Odin'sLaw]

after re-doing avatars on my new char titan said !we sleep in a time that is neither an instant or an eternity" so does that mean Diabalos is actually the keep of the protocrystals or something the dev's never bothered with once Diabalos was added?

[ronin sparthos]

the events of the battle for Windurst didnt change very much with or without WotGs interference. Karuha-baruha succeeded in our 'original' timeline in completing the summoning, assuming our original timeline wasn't tampered to begin with. Robel only helped because he really didnt want it to fail like it did in Liliths reality, for Star Sybils sake. I think the only things that changed was that fenrir was controlled by tzee xicu and brought to castle O. don't seem to remember that happening in the original storyline.

The Lilith reality was the original result. Robel (Karaha) failed to protect Windurst and the result was the future where the Star Sybil and Windurst are no more. This is his direct motive for joining the spitewardens and traveling back to the Crystal War - to prevent any of that from happening. It just so happens that his ideal results in the events that give legitimacy to Lilisettes (our) timeline.

When the Caits created the Lilisette timeline, the idea of Karaha saving Windurst was used as the explanation but it wasn't legitimate until the whole time traveling bit. Through WOTG, we see exactly how that comes to be: Robel comes back through time, finishes the forced summoning with his CW-self, forces Fenrir to fight the Yagudo and the rest becomes what is history in Lilisettes timeline. The whole thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way.

Now heres a lore question of my own:

Ok, a few of the beastmen leaders seem to confuse me.

#1. Is the Tzee Xicu in Castle Oztroja the same Xicu from the Crystal War? I recall she died during the assault on the castle that ends the WOTG windy missions. The Vana tribune also puts into doubt that Xicu survived that battle.


#2. On the Orcish front, we're led to believe that the entire Orc presence is an invasion force sent by their leadership who we know nothing about. Confusion to me is who exactly leads the Orcs throughout the Crystal War? Heres my breakdown:

Darkheir & Bloodcrown - Royalty. Presumably retreat/killed off after CW ends as we never hear of them again.
Kingslayer Doggvdegg - Supreme commander of military wings and gets sucked into Temenos at some point and dissapears? Not exactly sure how/when that happens - didn't do enough WOTG Sandy missions. Explanation?
Bakgodek - Takes over as leader of Davoi and remnants of the Orcish horde after the Crystal War?

[Ocara]

The Lilith reality was the original result. Robel (Karaha) failed to protect Windurst and the result was the future where the Star Sybil and Windurst are no more. This is his direct motive for joining the spitewardens and traveling back to the Crystal War - to prevent any of that from happening. It just so happens that his ideal results in the events that give legitimacy to Lilisettes (our) timeline.

When the Caits created the Lilisette timeline, the idea of Karaha saving Windurst was used as the explanation but it wasn't legitimate until the whole time traveling bit. Through WOTG, we see exactly how that comes to be: Robel comes back through time, finishes the forced summoning with his CW-self, forces Fenrir to fight the Yagudo and the rest becomes what is history in Lilisettes timeline. The whole thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way.

Now heres a lore question of my own:

Ok, a few of the beastmen leaders seem to confuse me.

#1. Is the Tzee Xicu in Castle Oztroja the same Xicu from the Crystal War? I recall she died during the assault on the castle that ends the WOTG windy missions. The Vana tribune also puts into doubt that Xicu survived that battle.


#2. On the Orcish front, we're led to believe that the entire Orc presence is an invasion force sent by their leadership who we know nothing about. Confusion to me is who exactly leads the Orcs throughout the Crystal War? Heres my breakdown:

Darkheir & Bloodcrown - Royalty. Presumably retreat/killed off after CW ends as we never hear of them again.
Kingslayer Doggvdegg - Supreme commander of military wings and gets sucked into Temenos at some point and dissapears? Not exactly sure how/when that happens - didn't do enough WOTG Sandy missions. Explanation?
Bakgodek - Takes over as leader of Davoi and remnants of the Orcish horde after the Crystal War?

Iirc at the end of the sandy fight Blood of Heroes Doggvdegg falls down one of the pits in Ghoyu's Reverie and is never seen again. I guess he gets dragged to Temenos later, or the Temenos one is a clone or something. It's never really explained how any of the mobs got to limbus.

[Odin'sLaw]

Iirc at the end of the sandy fight Blood of Heroes Doggvdegg falls down one of the pits in Ghoyu's Reverie and is never seen again. I guess he gets dragged to Temenos later, or the Temenos one is a clone or something. It's never really explained how any of the mobs got to limbus.

i though all mobs in limbus got dragged into the emptiness and was dragged to sea?

[Souj]

#1. Is the Tzee Xicu in Castle Oztroja the same Xicu from the Crystal War? I recall she died during the assault on the castle that ends the WOTG windy missions. The Vana tribune also puts into doubt that Xicu survived that battle.

#2. On the Orcish front, we're led to believe that the entire Orc presence is an invasion force sent by their leadership who we know nothing about. Confusion to me is who exactly leads the Orcs throughout the Crystal War? Heres my breakdown:

Darkheir & Bloodcrown - Royalty. Presumably retreat/killed off after CW ends as we never hear of them again.
Kingslayer Doggvdegg - Supreme commander of military wings and gets sucked into Temenos at some point and dissapears? Not exactly sure how/when that happens - didn't do enough WOTG Sandy missions. Explanation?
Bakgodek - Takes over as leader of Davoi and remnants of the Orcish horde after the Crystal War?

Xicu; Everyone was sure she had died in the war. During the present time, Windurst people were surprised to see Xicu alive, and all the Yagudo said that Xicu came back to life or something. As far as I know It was never explained if it was Xicu from the war, but people seemed to think it was probably just someone else who to the Xicu name. Another thing from the Tribune that supports that theory is that she has lived an unusually long time for a yagudo.

Doggvdegg: No idea on what happened to him, but the Tribune said he mysteriously disappeared after the Xarcabard conflicts. (Masses of people disappeared into Dynamis around that time, but Dogg's in Temenos, not dynamis, so idk.) that same Tribune article calls Dogg the Commander of the Bloodwing Horde. but in wotg the Bloodwings were led by Gudrud, so that is another point of dissenting opinions from 2 source materials. Though the Tribune isn't supposed to be "all-seeing, all-knowing fact". They wrote it like they would have as people from vanadiel would have with the knowledge they had.

[Odin'sLaw]

Xicu; Everyone was sure she had died in the war. During the present time, Windurst people were surprised to see Xicu alive, and all the Yagudo said that Xicu came back to life or something. As far as I know It was never explained if it was Xicu from the war, but people seemed to think it was probably just someone else who to the Xicu name. Another thing from the Tribune that supports that theory is that she has lived an unusually long time for a yagudo.

Doggvdegg: No idea on what happened to him, but the Tribune said he mysteriously disappeared after the Xarcabard conflicts. (Masses of people disappeared into Dynamis around that time, but Dogg's in Temenos, not dynamis, so idk.) that same Tribune article calls Dogg the Commander of the Bloodwing Horde. but in wotg the Bloodwings were led by Gudrud, so that is another point of dissenting opinions from 2 source materials. Though the Tribune isn't supposed to be "all-seeing, all-knowing fact". They wrote it like they would have as people from vanadiel would have with the knowledge they had.

the "knowledge" they had was called "we didn't know WoTG was going to fuck up our stories" but as far as i'm aware aren't Xicu just re-masked every time they die and just carry it on in name?

[Spira]

i got the idea that the Tribune article implied that Tzee Xicu from the Crystal War and the one in the present isn't the same, as it isnt normal for a yagudo to live that long. since shes behind a mask, no one can really tell.. but then again, she's revered as a yagudo god or something, so maybe she's spesshul.

[Azat]

Really thought they would of used wotg to clear that up, but was intentionally left open. Very least Crystal wars version saw herself on the same level as the avatars, her conversations with Fenrir were always in a tone of equals.

[Charismatic]

The Vana'diel Tribune article you're all referring to is the same one where they posed the question as to whether or not it's a different Yagudo themselves, right?
I'd say that's as close to them saying it as we're going to get without them just coming out and bluntly saying it's not the same Yag. You'd have to wonder why they'd even bring it up if they weren't trying to tell us something.

[Sobie]

So I finished all of Abyssea and I am not sure if I missed this.

Did they ever fully explain the Caturae or where they came from?