FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

[Sobie]

Question from reading all of this that I have always wondered; what then exactly is the backstory of Limbus? And where do we learn what it's all about?

[Priran]

Whatever story there is to it, you're never told directly. It seems like others somehow stumbled into Al'taieu before you did, although how this occurred, as in the case of Doggvdegg getting stuck sometime during the war, before the events of RotZ is a bit of a plothole.

[Byrthnoth]

It's an awesome dungeon with no logical place in the storyline and only a tangential connection to CoP, in that they re-used Promyvion and Palace/Garden map sets and Ultima/Omega.

[Septimus]

While not officially explained, I personally believe that Limbus is one of the hells of Vana'diel. It is the only explanation that accounts for Kingslayer Doggvdegg being there.

[Priran]

It is the only explanation that accounts for Kingslayer Doggvdegg being there.

The only explanation? It seems entirely possible and more likely he pulled a reverse-Selh'teus and got sucked there through a crystal line. He wasn't killed in battle by anyone's account, he just vanished.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Two explanations I can think of:

-Apollyon is where stuff devoured by the spreading Emptiness go, and Temenos is what Priran said, stuff pulling a reverse-Selh'teus. In Doggvdegg's article on the Vana'diel Tribune II, it said "However, Doggvdegg disappeared from the history pages after the conflict in Xarcabard, where it is said he defeated the San d'Orian general Phillieulais in single combat. (Beastmen records concur with this account.)" So I always figured he fell into the Vahzl chasm and something weird happened. Haven't done San d'Oria [S] so I'm not sure if it contradicts that idea.

-Souls return to the nearest mothercrystal, right? So maybe that's all Limbus is. Creatures that die closest to the fifth crystal, with some stuff (Omega, Ultima, Temenos aerns/ghrahs) being monsters that were already in Al'Taieu. Wouldn't really explain the undead, but eh.

I remember in an old thread someone said they figured all the "enhanced" mobs are experimental creatures, which certainly fits with Proto-Ultima & Omega.

EDIT: One thing sort-of related to the plot that I recently discovered: The Japanese website has official descriptions for some areas the NA website doesn't, mostly Zilart areas (which the PS2 manual had a few of). Vollbow, in particular, seems interesting.

[Septimus]

The only explanation? It seems entirely possible and more likely he pulled a reverse-Selh'teus and got sucked there through a crystal line. He wasn't killed in battle by anyone's account, he just vanished.

Apollyon is the Greek word for Abbadon. In Hebrew tradition, Abbadon is another name for "Sheol", the earliest concept of the afterlife in Jewish Scripture.

Temenos in ancient Greek meant a parcel of land that is set aside for the worship of gods, but in English is has come to mean a plain or dimension for a deity.

Limbus is the Latin root for Limbo. Limbus means "an edge or border", in the case of Limbo, the edge of Hell.

It is fairly clear that this system is meant to refer to the afterlife.

If Kingslayer Doggvdegg did get pulled into the Crystal Line, how did it happen? The line wasn't activated for twenty years after his battle in the Northlands. It is more likely that he died unceremoniously from wounds that he sustained in the battle with Excenmille and went straight to Hell. Or in this case, Temenos.

[Spira]

thats kinda true.. Limbus is one place they never really did explain...

i'd throw my support for the heaven and hell theory, but maybe in the sense that it was never meant to manifest in the real world and only made possible through the various anomalies that occur around Al'Taieu

the only real links that it has with the storyline i think is where the blue mage from aht urhgan happens to be gathering parts to rebuild alexander and coincidentally proto ultima and omega reside there.

honestly, this is a good question. someone should post this in the official forums for a dev response

[Spira]

thats kinda true.. Limbus is one place they never really did explain...

i'd throw my support for the heaven and hell theory, but maybe in the sense that it was never meant to manifest in the real world and only made possible through the various anomalies that occur around Al'Taieu

the only real links that it has with the storyline i think is where the blue mage from aht urhgan happens to be gathering parts to rebuild alexander and coincidentally proto ultima and omega reside there.

honestly, this is a good question. someone should post this in the official forums for a dev response

[Apelila]

Abyssea kind of explained the plot hole with the far east in a way - one of the NPC's in the abysea story explains how the emptiness started coming in from the fringes. This makes me thing that it would start eating away at the other side of the world from the crystals/Tu'Lia first since the energy there would be weakest. Like Azat said - a puddle that gets smaller due to evaporation. The area's in abyssea are still present due to all the NPC's which are grounding them with the emptiness.

Now if only Al'Teau on the moon where explained outside of 'it looks cool'.

Remember that Temenos are sort of referenced in CoP - I'm pretty sure the "O'phat Obolisk"[sic, but very similar] is Temenos.

[Septimus]

EDIT: One thing sort-of related to the plot that I recently discovered: The Japanese website has official descriptions for some areas the NA website doesn't, mostly Zilart areas (which the PS2 manual had a few of). Vollbow, in particular, seems interesting.

I did some Google Translate on it, and it does look interesting. Someone light up the Elmer-signal.

[Priran]

Apollyon is the Greek word for Abbadon. In Hebrew tradition, Abbadon is another name for "Sheol", the earliest concept of the afterlife in Jewish Scripture.

Temenos in ancient Greek meant a parcel of land that is set aside for the worship of gods, but in English is has come to mean a plain or dimension for a deity.

Limbus is the Latin root for Limbo. Limbus means "an edge or border", in the case of Limbo, the edge of Hell.

It is fairly clear that this system is meant to refer to the afterlife.

If Kingslayer Doggvdegg did get pulled into the Crystal Line, how did it happen? The line wasn't activated for twenty years after his battle in the Northlands. It is more likely that he died unceremoniously from wounds that he sustained in the battle with Excenmille and went straight to Hell. Or in this case, Temenos.

So the Vana'delian afterlife occupies a physical location? And it doesn't even own, it rents out space in a Zilart city? And it's populated by machines and animals and such things that aren't typically viewed as having souls? And its total population is a couple hundred? And it has a machine out front that lets living people in?

It just makes way more sense that those names are being figuratively applied to locations where accidental visitors end up getting stuck. Especially since the fact that Al'taieu is canonically known to exist by every one of the usual suspects (goblins, the Empire, etc) suggests that things randomly finding their way in is not unheard of.

[Spira]

Abyssea kind of explained the plot hole with the far east in a way - one of the NPC's in the abysea story explains how the emptiness started coming in from the fringes. This makes me thing that it would start eating away at the other side of the world from the crystals/Tu'Lia first since the energy there would be weakest. Like Azat said - a puddle that gets smaller due to evaporation. The area's in abyssea are still present due to all the NPC's which are grounding them with the emptiness.

Now if only Al'Teau on the moon where explained outside of 'it looks cool'.

Remember that Temenos are sort of referenced in CoP - I'm pretty sure the "O'phat Obolisk"[sic, but very similar] is Temenos.

ooh I like that explanation..

Apollyon was originally Lower Promyvion and Temenos Ou'phat's Obelisk, the former known thru a glitch that reported you to be in a different area than you actually were and the latter was mentioned by Nag'molada in the story (and thru dat mining).

but i don't know if they intended for the new use of these areas to have been similar to their original intention

[Gwynplaine]

You guys are looking into it too much. Apallyon is just some Zilart experimental lab, and Limbus is just some pocket of emptiness. Both were born out of a terrible cataclysm when overworked developers didn't want to make more real new zones, so they copy and pasted the palace and promys.

[Xanthe]

You guys are looking into it too much. Temenos is just some Zilart experimental lab, and Apollyon is just some pocket of emptiness.

Fixed.

[Appie]

Now if only Al'Teau on the moon where explained outside of 'it looks cool'.

Wasn't it because in Abyssea we lost against Promathia in CoP, then all the shit happened that Promathia became Shinryu and he lifted Al'Taieu to the moon to have the moon crash into the planet (or am I thinking Majora's Mask XD)? Maybe he needed Al'Taieu to draw his power from for that task, considering it's where the Empyreal Paradox was located. I'm sure it was sorta explained anyway in the last few cutscenes of Abyssea.

[Ophannus]

I always viewed Limbus/Salvage/Sky Gods/Sea Gods to be noncanon side quests similar to Dawn of Souls/Chamber of Rebirth from FF1/2 and all those extra omake dungeons in the old FF remakes where weird areas/monsters dwell and at the bottom you fight an alternate version of older bosses like EX-Zeromus or Omega Mark VII or Neo Shinryu. ZOMG I THINK FINAL BOSS OF VOIDWATCH AT LVL 99 IS GONNA BE NEOSHINRYU. You heard it here first!

[Septimus]

So the Vana'delian afterlife occupies a physical location? And it doesn't even own, it rents out space in a Zilart city? And it's populated by machines and animals and such things that aren't typically viewed as having souls? And its total population is a couple hundred? And it has a machine out front that lets living people in?

It just makes way more sense that those names are being figuratively applied to locations where accidental visitors end up getting stuck. Especially since the fact that Al'taieu is canonically known to exist by every one of the usual suspects (goblins, the Empire, etc) suggests that things randomly finding their way in is not unheard of.

Well, the afterlife having a physical location, you sure got me there. That sort of thing could only be explained if there had been some sort of gigantic disaster that caused a dimensional misalignment. The kind of thing that would be cause by a city being swallowed up whole into a crystal, put in another dimension, yet still resiting in that city. Only some sort of heavenly anomaly could account for something like that, if only CoP had one of those...

Sarcasm aside, at the end of the Treasures of Aht Urhgan:

Spoiler: show

Razfahd is lost and considered dead. After doing the Alexander fight for the first time, Razfahd is pulled back from the Astral Plane where he should have perished.

Odin's Valkyries have physical forms when they are summoned from Valhalla to help him in Einherjar.

Besides, in traditional mythology, Heaven and Hell are actual locations to which one could physically travel. This was most likely borrowed from Greek Mythology where heroes would visit the underworld on a frequency that I am sure that Hades found disconcerting. Not to mention that this is a video game and doesn't have to make perfect, logical sense.

Wasn't it because in Abyssea we lost against Promathia in CoP, then all the shit happened that Promathia became Shinryu and he lifted Al'Taieu to the moon to have the moon crash into the planet (or am I thinking Majora's Mask XD)? Maybe he needed Al'Taieu to draw his power from for that task, considering it's where the Empyreal Paradox was located. I'm sure it was sorta explained anyway in the last few cutscenes of Abyssea.

Esha'ntarl flat out says in one of the cutscenes that Al'Taieu must be on the moon because of the intervention of our counterparts before they were eaten by Promathia. That is the only reason the zone hasn't crashed into the surface of the planet destroying everything.

[Priran]

Well, the afterlife having a physical location, you sure got me there. That sort of thing could only be explained if there had been some sort of gigantic disaster that caused a dimensional misalignment. The kind of thing that would be cause by a city being swallowed up whole into a crystal, put in another dimension, yet still resiting in that city. Only some sort of heavenly anomaly could account for something like that, if only CoP had one of those...

Sarcasm aside, at the end of the Treasures of Aht Urhgan:

Spoiler: show

Razfahd is lost and considered dead. After doing the Alexander fight for the first time, Razfahd is pulled back from the Astral Plane where he should have perished.

Odin's Valkyries have physical forms when they are summoned from Valhalla to help him in Einherjar.

Besides, in traditional mythology, Heaven and Hell are actual locations to which one could physically travel. This was most likely borrowed from Greek Mythology where heroes would visit the underworld on a frequency that I am sure that Hades found disconcerting. Not to mention that this is a video game and doesn't have to make perfect, logical sense.

In any work of fiction I am familiar with where someone is able to just come and go from hell, they are either gods themselves or have the help of a god. Outside Abyssea, the player is just a badass normal and Altana cba for important shit let alone your lootz. If any normal person can come and go from Hell then it serves no purpose. And again, if Limbus was hell it would be packed with people, not lightly populated by mobs. How does a machine get sent to hell? Or a fucking beetle, what does a beetle do that's worth eternal damnation?

[Appie]

Esha'ntarl flat out says in one of the cutscenes that Al'Taieu must be on the moon because of the intervention of our counterparts before they were eaten by Promathia. That is the only reason the zone hasn't crashed into the surface of the planet destroying everything.

Oh so that was it.

Or a fucking beetle, what does a beetle do that's worth eternal damnation?

Animals with a disfigured foot don't belong in heaven? ;D