FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

[Apelila]

Esha'ntarl flat out says in one of the cutscenes that Al'Taieu must be on the moon because of the intervention of our counterparts before they were eaten by Promathia. That is the only reason the zone hasn't crashed into the surface of the planet destroying everything.

Which is a vaild explination but still just a few steps away from 'a wizard did it'. The why of being in space (Spaaaaaaaaace) makes sense, but the how/why of it being on the moon sort is eclipsed. If I were to cook up a half-assed explination, in loosing the fight with Promathia selthius/phoenix drove Al'Teau into the moon to prevent it from crashing into Vanadiel before being consumed by Promathia.

Which of course makes me think: Why would the god that wants to die absorb the ultimate reraise item?

[Spira]

I always viewed Limbus/Salvage/Sky Gods/Sea Gods to be noncanon side quests similar to Dawn of Souls/Chamber of Rebirth from FF1/2 and all those extra omake dungeons in the old FF remakes where weird areas/monsters dwell and at the bottom you fight an alternate version of older bosses like EX-Zeromus or Omega Mark VII or Neo Shinryu. ZOMG I THINK FINAL BOSS OF VOIDWATCH AT LVL 99 IS GONNA BE NEOSHINRYU. You heard it here first!

The omake dungeons in old FF remakes are all considered canon imo, and according to most series fan enthusiasts. its just that it isn't a part of the main story most of the time and features unexplained anomalies. difference there being that in those games little to no explanation was ever given to most things to begin with.
another example is like FF5a and its new superbosses, including Enuo, which is by far very canon, but also somewhat explained.

The parts of FFXI that are similar to omake in that sense are the BCNM orbs.. they have absolutely no story point. even Sky and Sea NMs have some kind of backstory holding them together..

In any work of fiction I am familiar with where someone is able to just come and go from hell, they are either gods themselves or have the help of a god. Outside Abyssea, the player is just a badass normal and Altana cba for important shit let alone your lootz. If any normal person can come and go from Hell then it serves no purpose. And again, if Limbus was hell it would be packed with people, not lightly populated by mobs. How does a machine get sent to hell? Or a fucking beetle, what does a beetle do that's worth eternal damnation?

I'm guessing you're not familiar with FF fiction. Pandemonium (FF2) and the Farplane (FF10) would like to have a word with you. What is usually the case is people who don't belong there can enter and leave, but not those who do?

Oh so that was it.

Animals with a disfigured foot don't belong in heaven? ;D

HELL NO. Then again.. I absolutely loathe deformed insects. You obviously don't know that.

[Souj]

How about this;
Temenos is just other sections of the Zilart capital. Altaieu was the main zilart hub. their grand capital. Would it really make sense if it just consisted of Grand Palace and Garden?
And appolyon could be the Far East that has been eaten away from the emptiness.

[Septimus]

In any work of fiction I am familiar with where someone is able to just come and go from hell, they are either gods themselves or have the help of a god. Outside Abyssea, the player is just a badass normal and Altana cba for important shit let alone your lootz. If any normal person can come and go from Hell then it serves no purpose. And again, if Limbus was hell it would be packed with people, not lightly populated by mobs. How does a machine get sent to hell? Or a fucking beetle, what does a beetle do that's worth eternal damnation?

Orpheus. And not the Doctor who shares his name. Orpheus was a great bard of Ancient Greece. His wife Eurydice was killed by a snake bite, Orpheus sashayed himself into Hades and sang a song so sad that Hades himself agreed to let Eurydice go on the condition that Orpheus not look at her until they both left the underworld. (It didn't work out.) Come to think of it, Doctor Orpheus has also traveled to Limbo.

Also the Divine Comedy.

And how are our characters just "badass normal"? Our hobby is smacking gods around. Yes, there are NPCs that are more powerful than us (Shantotto, Zeid, the Serpent Generals, Campaign generals), but our exploits are far more legendary. Not that the general populace will ever hear about them. We conquered the chains that Promathia used to bind us and we are Altana's wings. The player character is a very special being in the FFXI universe, we are the tools of Altana. While I said a few pages back that she is pretty lazy, really she doesn't have to fix the world because she has us to do it for her. Our characters are exactly the type of heroic beings that could waltz into the afterlife on a whim, smack some creatures around, and bring the loot out to prove it.

And who says that the enhanced beetles, tigers, dragons, etc weren't people in their previous lives? Maybe it is like reincarnation when your previous life influences your next incarnation. Perhaps those animals were despicable people who have to work out 100,000 years in Temenos before they can move on to something better. Or maybe they are just random monsters in a hell-themed battle system.

Which is a vaild explination but still just a few steps away from 'a wizard did it'. The why of being in space (Spaaaaaaaaace) makes sense, but the how/why of it being on the moon sort is eclipsed. If I were to cook up a half-assed explination, in loosing the fight with Promathia selthius/phoenix drove Al'Teau into the moon to prevent it from crashing into Vanadiel before being consumed by Promathia.

Which of course makes me think: Why would the god that wants to die absorb the ultimate reraise item?

The problem is that Esha'ntarl was only guessing at what really happened. Only Prishe would know for sure, and she isn't talking about it.

And for the question, Promathia wasn't after Phoenix. He didn't just change into Shinryu because he ate the Phoenix, he evolved because of the sheer amount of Emptiness that Selh'teus had absorbed.

[Apelila]

right but his goal was to die, not to have atma of the apocalypse.....oh, thats why it has reraise. :keanuwhoa:

[Niiro]

Something that's always bothered me about the storylines is that even though we're the ones doing all the work, when it comes to the actual story itself we might as well not be there. There's nothing inherently special about the PC, they're essentially just random "adventurers" that stumble upon world-ending events, watch a the story unfold before them (while being almost entirely irrelevant to it), and do most of the fighting.

Other than that 90% of CSs could exclude us entirely and it would make little to no difference.

And yes I'm aware that it's kind of hard to give a blank slate character, but they didn't even try.

[Priran]

they are either gods themselves or have the help of a god

Hades himself agreed to let Eurydice go

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3...5401996369.jpg

Also the Divine Comedy.

spoiler alert: he meets god at the end

Pandemonium (FF2)

isn't hell, it's a palace risen from hell by a guy who stole Satan's powers

the Farplane (FF10)

isn't really hell, more of a place where peoples' pyreflies get sent so they don't get jealous of the living

And how are our characters just "badass normal"? Our hobby is smacking gods around. Yes, there are NPCs that are more powerful than us (Shantotto, Zeid, the Serpent Generals, Campaign generals), but our exploits are far more legendary. Not that the general populace will ever hear about them. We conquered the chains that Promathia used to bind us and we are Altana's wings. The player character is a very special being in the FFXI universe, we are the tools of Altana.

The player is an adventurer. They go out and do the dangerous stuff because it's all they're good for. Maybe someone has a problem they're too weak to solve themselves, maybe you can't spare actual trained soldiers, the point is that they're not specially selected, it's just that doing shit like that is their job. Any time the player is compared to a career warrior they get fucking trounced, and any time the player winds up doing something important like fighting Promathia it's because no one else could be spared to investigate something as seemingly inconsequential as Emptiness.

People like to pretend the player is special because that's how it works in single-player RPGs, as shown by the common misconception that the player is the Keeper of the Apocalypse despite repeated confirmation in the story that they are not. SE thankfully realized how ridiculous it is when every player character in a MMO is THE CHOSEN ONE (see: aion, rift).

And who says that the enhanced beetles, tigers, dragons, etc weren't people in their previous lives? Maybe it is like reincarnation when your previous life influences your next incarnation. Perhaps those animals were despicable people who have to work out 100,000 years in Temenos before they can move on to something better.

Because they would be spending those 100,000 years in Temenos as a person.

[Spira]

you're just being technical for the sake of it.

the game's realm of death "mechanics" don't make sense. Theres apollyon/temenos, hazhalm and valhalla, 'hades', returning to the crystal.

if you're trying to rationalize that one system is supposed to work then you're just being stupid. that doesn't even happen in real life.

then again, you're priran, so i rest my case.

[NeoForte]

How about this;
Temenos is just other sections of the Zilart capital. Altaieu was the main zilart hub. their grand capital. Would it really make sense if it just consisted of Grand Palace and Garden?
And appolyon could be the Far East that has been eaten away from the emptiness.

I am pretty damn sure Apollyon is suppose to be Promyvion - Al'Taieu. It's Just the emptiness that has accumulated in the Al'Taieu crystal like the other mothercrystals have (Dem, Holla, Mea and Vahlz). Wasn't Temenos suppose to be a research facility the Zilart used?

[Priran]

you're just being technical for the sake of it.

the game's realm of death "mechanics" don't make sense. Theres apollyon/temenos, hazhalm and valhalla, 'hades', returning to the crystal.

if you're trying to rationalize that one system is supposed to work then you're just being stupid. that doesn't even happen in real life.

then again, you're priran, so i rest my case.

so I can't disprove this wholly theorycraft idea that Limbus is Vana'diel's hell because none of the other things you have arbitrarily decided are part of the Vana'dielian afterlife make any sense either, ergo none of them need make sense.

what

This is why you shouldn't join an argument just because you don't like someone in it, kiddos.

[Eurell]

The player is an adventurer. They go out and do the dangerous stuff because it's all they're good for. Maybe someone has a problem they're too weak to solve themselves, maybe you can't spare actual trained soldiers, the point is that they're not specially selected, it's just that doing shit like that is their job. Any time the player is compared to a career warrior they get fucking trounced, and any time the player winds up doing something important like fighting Promathia it's because no one else could be spared to investigate something as seemingly inconsequential as Emptiness.

People like to pretend the player is special because that's how it works in single-player RPGs, as shown by the common misconception that the player is the Keeper of the Apocalypse despite repeated confirmation in the story that they are not. SE thankfully realized how ridiculous it is when every player character in a MMO is THE CHOSEN ONE (see: aion, rift).

I agree with you that Limbus isn't heaven or hell, but I disagree with the rest of this.

Time and again, Mission Cutscenes have told us that our character has something special about them, they are blessed by altana, etc etc. Im pretty sure this was mentioned after we kick Tenzen's ass, and is also a very large chunk of the WotG storyline.

In the early rank missions, maybe through Zilart missions, yeah, we're just a random adventurer who happens to get caught up in some shit. But after that, they pretty clearly state how special we are.


We can also beat the serpeant generals, and heroes/heroines of each nation in BCs. So Idk about all them being stronger than us either.

[Spira]

except no one is saying that its correct, they're just saying its the best plausible scenario we can come up with. because otherwise, the game provides us with no clues on the matter.

let's see you come up with something better.

edit: indeed, none of them need to make sense. how can you have played FFXI for so long and not realize this?

[Byrthnoth]

You're all wrong. Limbus is just a re-hash of the Promyvion and Garden/Palace map pack because they wanted to add a CoP event. It has no plot basis. Other than Limbus the only "COP-related" events are really Dynamis - Tav, ENMs, and farming sea.

[ronin sparthos]

you're just being technical for the sake of it.

the game's realm of death "mechanics" don't make sense. Theres apollyon/temenos, hazhalm and valhalla, 'hades', returning to the crystal.

if you're trying to rationalize that one system is supposed to work then you're just being stupid. that doesn't even happen in real life.

then again, you're priran, so i rest my case.

Pretty sure the only "natural" death in XI is a return to the mothercrystal as the other areas have various loose explanations. At the end of CoP, you see Promathia return to crystal for further evidence.

Hazhalm Testing Grounds has been stated to be a research facility used by Aht for the creation and production of various chimera. Why the place looks like a dark cave with no signs of laboratories or equipment is beyond me.

I guess they just smashed rocks together or something.

Valhalla is a creation of Odin and likely just his manipulation of an area within the astral plane. Judging from the hordes of demons and his valkyrie, it's his equivalent of a sandbox and within it you're his plaything. Ah, the life of an active celestial avatar seems to be one fraught with boredom.

Temenos is supposed to be some Zilartian research facility and many of the monsters seem to be plucked away from Vana'diel and drawn into that zone. This is the reason why all the monsters are "enhanced" on one floor, why beastmen like Kingslayer Doggvdegg are present and why Proto-Ultima looms at the top. Someone at SE watching too much UFO propaganda? I leave that for you to decide.

Then again, why is Omega is Apollyon when that zone would have been freshly created by the events of CoP? SE tossed the script on some of these endgame zones.

If the Hades you're mentioning is the one Pandemonium Warden was blabbering on about, it's very likely he too was talking about Odin's construct. He's a demon, demons originate from this alternate realm and he's done a pretty terrible job as a warden.

tl;dr Odin is a deus ex machina.

[Priran]

I agree with you that Limbus isn't heaven or hell, but I disagree with the rest of this.

Time and again, Mission Cutscenes have told us that our character has something special about them, they are blessed by altana, etc etc. Im pretty sure this was mentioned after we kick Tenzen's ass, and is also a very large chunk of the WotG storyline.

In the early rank missions, maybe through Zilart missions, yeah, we're just a random adventurer who happens to get caught up in some shit. But after that, they pretty clearly state how special we are.


We can also beat the serpeant generals, and heroes/heroines of each nation in BCs. So Idk about all them being stronger than us either.

The only thing special about the player is how much of the world behind the scenes they are privy to. Nothing specially qualified you for your role in WotG, but Altana knows you from that CoP business you also weren't especially qualified for beyond being aware of the existence of the Zilart, which you know because of some shit that happened following your assignment to kill the Shadow Lord who was weakened enough that they didn't see the need to go balls out and involve the military.

The best way I can think to explain it is that the player is like a PMC.

[Souj]

speaking of Odin dealing with just about everything FF11 related, what was Alexander doing during all this time? I don't remember what they said during tau missions, but I figured he'd have done something while Odin has had his hands in just about every expansion.

[Sagacious Sundi]

His previous body (Alzadaal) was destroyed in their duel ~900 years ago, so presumably he/it couldn't operate on the mortal plane without a proper vessel.

[Fereydoon]

Pretty sure the only "natural" death in XI is a return to the mothercrystal as the other areas have various loose explanations. At the end of CoP, you see Promathia return to crystal for further evidence.

Hazhalm Testing Grounds has been stated to be a research facility used by Aht for the creation and production of various chimera. Why the place looks like a dark cave with no signs of laboratories or equipment is beyond me.

I guess they just smashed rocks together or something.

Valhalla is a creation of Odin and likely just his manipulation of an area within the astral plane. Judging from the hordes of demons and his valkyrie, it's his equivalent of a sandbox and within it you're his plaything. Ah, the life of an active celestial avatar seems to be one fraught with boredom.

Temenos is supposed to be some Zilartian research facility and many of the monsters seem to be plucked away from Vana'diel and drawn into that zone. This is the reason why all the monsters are "enhanced" on one floor, why beastmen like Kingslayer Doggvdegg are present and why Proto-Ultima looms at the top. Someone at SE watching too much UFO propaganda? I leave that for you to decide.

Then again, why is Omega is Apollyon when that zone would have been freshly created by the events of CoP? SE tossed the script on some of these endgame zones.

If the Hades you're mentioning is the one Pandemonium Warden was blabbering on about, it's very likely he too was talking about Odin's construct. He's a demon, demons originate from this alternate realm and he's done a pretty terrible job as a warden.

tl;dr Odin is a deus ex machina.

Hazhalm was also mentioned to be abandoned, no? They could have taken everything out with them.

What if Omega was guarding Al'Taieu at the time? Or a test run of some sort, if Apollyon is Promyvion-Al'Taieu he could have been drawn in, kind of like the constructs in Promyvion-Dem might have been.

[Eurell]

The only thing special about the player is how much of the world behind the scenes they are privy to. Nothing specially qualified you for your role in WotG, but Altana knows you from that CoP business you also weren't especially qualified for beyond being aware of the existence of the Zilart, which you know because of some shit that happened following your assignment to kill the Shadow Lord who was weakened enough that they didn't see the need to go balls out and involve the military.

The best way I can think to explain it is that the player is like a PMC.

Selh'teus: (However, I am a child of darkness. I could never be the bearer of light.)

Selh'teus: (I needed a worthy receptacle for that power. I needed you.)

Prishe: I'm sure you've noticed it by now, Player name.
Your ability to hear the whisper of the soul...

Prishe: Passed through the medium of the amulet, the light gathered from the four crystals has changed you.

Tenzen: Phoenix referred to you as the "Vessel of Light."

Tenzen: Fated to be smashed open before the fifth mothercrystal...

Selh'teus: (Your journey has been for the sake of the crystal.)

Selh'teus: (Your adventure is now at an end.)

Selh'teus: (Return, Player name. Return to the light of the crystal.)



Taken from Wiki for the cutscene after beating Tenzen. Unless I'm reading this completely wrong, we do have something special about us (at least once you get this far into the storyline).

I'm almost positive that we were considered special in wotG as well, although I would have to go back and check. Something about us being destined DawnWarriors or some shit, + the fact that both lillith's (or w/e her name was) and cait sith saw this in us.

[Azat]

Selh'teus: (However, I am a child of darkness. I could never be the bearer of light.)

Selh'teus: (I needed a worthy receptacle for that power. I needed you.)

Prishe: I'm sure you've noticed it by now, Player name.
Your ability to hear the whisper of the soul...

Prishe: Passed through the medium of the amulet, the light gathered from the four crystals has changed you.

Tenzen: Phoenix referred to you as the "Vessel of Light."

Tenzen: Fated to be smashed open before the fifth mothercrystal...

Selh'teus: (Your journey has been for the sake of the crystal.)

Selh'teus: (Your adventure is now at an end.)

Selh'teus: (Return, Player name. Return to the light of the crystal.)



Taken from Wiki for the cutscene after beating Tenzen. Unless I'm reading this completely wrong, we do have something special about us (at least once you get this far into the storyline).

I'm almost positive that we were considered special in wotG as well, although I would have to go back and check. Something about us being destined DawnWarriors or some shit, + the fact that both lillith's (or w/e her name was) and cait sith saw this in us.

According to that dialog, it was the amulet that made us special. Really could of been any random joe that could of found it, been made the vessel, fought promathia and saved the world.