FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

**Eurell** · 2011-09-14 16:49

True, which is why I said

Originally Posted by Eurell

we do have something special about us (at least once you get this far into the storyline).

Whether we were born special or became it through magical items or w/e, doesn't change the fact that from that point on, we aren't just any other random person.

**Septimus** · 2011-09-14 17:37

Originally Posted by Priran

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3...5401996369.jpg
spoiler alert: he meets god at the end
isn't hell, it's a palace risen from hell by a guy who stole Satan's powers isn't really hell, more of a place where peoples' pyreflies get sent so they don't get jealous of the living
The player is an adventurer. They go out and do the dangerous stuff because it's all they're good for. Maybe someone has a problem they're too weak to solve themselves, maybe you can't spare actual trained soldiers, the point is that they're not specially selected, it's just that doing shit like that is their job. Any time the player is compared to a career warrior they get fucking trounced, and any time the player winds up doing something important like fighting Promathia it's because no one else could be spared to investigate something as seemingly inconsequential as Emptiness.

People like to pretend the player is special because that's how it works in single-player RPGs, as shown by the common misconception that the player is the Keeper of the Apocalypse despite repeated confirmation in the story that they are not. SE thankfully realized how ridiculous it is when every player character in a MMO is THE CHOSEN ONE (see: aion, rift).

Because they would be spending those 100,000 years in Temenos as a person.

Wow, you really are the BGForums version of Alhanelem with your selective understanding of shit.

Hades didn't let Orpheus into his realm. The most help that Orpheus got from the gods is when they said "Yo dawg, your song is sad, why don't you go to Hades and get your woman back." They didn't help him break in, they gave him the idea. (And in some versions of the myth, they didn't even do that.) He used his songs to convince Charon to ferry him across the River Styx, he used his songs to charm Cerberus, he used his songs to convince Hades to let his wife go. He did it himself with his own musical talent.

In the Divine Comedy God didn't show up at the start and say "Yo dawg, here are the keys to hell, go and take a look." The end is not the beginning.

Go do the Wings of the Goddess missions then try to tell me that the player character is not considered special by Altana. Or in CoP where Altana cries and you get to keep one of her tears. She isn't doing that for everyone.

**Priran** · 2011-09-14 19:14

The only remarkable part of going to hell and back is the "and back" part.

**Souj** · 2011-09-14 20:43

Is there any ingame lore to the Caturae? the description of the mob in the website says

It is believed that these impenetrable beings once served the leisure events of a forsaken and equally arcane civilization.

It definitely doesn't look Zilart(ian?). sorta looks like Alzadaal construct, just a lot different.

**Septimus** · 2011-09-14 21:50

Originally Posted by Priran

The only remarkable part of going to hell and back is the "and back" part.

Either you are trolling really hard to save face or you know nothing about Greek Mythology. For a living person to get into Hades you had to travel over the River Styx, get past Cerbrus, and make your way though hostile spirits. Hades (the god) was possibly the single most feared god in the Greek Pantheon, people rarely even said his name aloud. Only someone amazingly brave (or foolish) would even attempt to go to the Underworld, willingly going to see Hades would have been considered insane and suicidal. (Oddly enough, the same kind of balls that would be required to fight Promathia.) Willingly going to Hades and making it there while alive was a pretty remarkable feat.

**Priran** · 2011-09-14 22:33

Originally Posted by Septimus

Willingly going to hell is suicidal, and other truisms

Just wondering, how many stories are there of heroes determined as fuck to get to hell and just chilling once they get there?

**Septimus** · 2011-09-14 22:50

Originally Posted by Priran

Just wondering, how many stories are there of heroes determined as fuck to get to hell and just chilling once they get there?

A living person going to Hades would be comparable to a trip to the Moon. Getting back is hard, but getting there is pretty fucking hard too.

**Ophannus** · 2011-09-14 23:08

The NM in Giddeus that drops Aspir Knife is a NIN mob. I thought NIN/SAM/DRGs weren't added until RoZ came out and assuredly rank 2-3 existed prior to RoZ since the Zilart expansion ushered in Rank 6 and beyond. So did they alter old NMs and change their jobs after the new jobs came out? Don't see how Eyy Mon the Ironbreaker could have been a Ninja before NINs even were released.

**Spira** · 2011-09-15 13:11

iirc Zilart job mobs were in the game way before Zilart was released.. it was their way of telling players 'look, they have jobs that you don't, meaning you'll get them soon". that and they'd already planned for those jobs since day one, unlike BLU COR PUP DNC SCH.
i believe the same thing applied for SMN job elementals as well.

theres nothing on caturae other than that they mysteriously appeared after the cataclysm in Abyssea and that they were concealing the gateway to Al'Taieu, for some reason. granted there will soon be a catura in Voidwatch we might be able to draw some conclusions from there too.

and for the special bit.. it seems we're nothing special in vanilla and zilart, happen to be suitable in cop, conveniently available in toau, and are one of two 'chosen ones' in wotg. at least theres one in there. you cant be chosen for everything after all

**Rocl** · 2011-09-15 13:27

Fairly certain Esha'ntarl had a convincing theory about the Caturae in Hall of the Gods. I don't remember it, and I'm not wasting my time going to check it. Something like they were made by Promathia to obscure the entrance to Al'Taieu? (Could be re-animated Zilartian tools or something, who knows since most dolls/pots in sky seem to serve a purpose in Ru'Aun.)

As for the whole Limbus thing, lol. It's an event, so like good Brythnoth said, it's possible there's no story whatsoever. The basest, and most applicable explanation I can think of, would be the old names of the zones. (Lower Promyvion, the Promvyion of the fifth crystal, due to proximity to the Paradox. Ou'Phat Obelisk was referenced in the CoP story--and the old name of Temenos when our good friend magically made his way into there before north Al'Taieu was released.) Memory fails me, but Obelisk was near the Chamber of Eventide? Who really knows. I like the idea of the laboratory because it makes sense to me, testing on mortal beasts before Paradise was sundered. That raises question about the beastmen etc. though, so whatever-- wizards did it. (Nag'molada does say something about Omega/Ultima being based on earlier models I thought, though?) Doggvdegg's disappeared in WoTG was definitely hinted to NOT be his death. (Especially considering the Tribune's entry, but we really fucked with the timeline.) I mean, the guy falls into a pit, doesn't mean he's dead. Fuck, I was half-expecting us to go kill him in present day in Ghoyu's Reverie.

As for the player being SPECIAL, the player only becomes "special" at the end of missions. He's just a lucky sob in RoZ, and is blessed by Altana at the end of CoP. ToAU we're a mercenary of little renown, as our employer tells us so often. We get to become a special friend of the Empress and avert the end of the world a third time. WoTG it's clear we're "special" from the get-go. The other story lines seem to make our characters distinguish themselves from the pack, but WoTG it seems opposite. Still though, I doubt it's written in the story that everyone kills Promathia, Lilith, and Eald'narche.

The most interesting thing about the Hell discussion is Einherjar. Odin apparently has these vast legions of followers (aka demons, Cerberuses), where do they come from? The Astral plane? Are there analogous beasts for each element?

**Septimus** · 2011-09-15 15:45

Dialog about the Caturae, spolierized for largness:

Spoiler: show

This is all we know about them. Before the Voidwatch second chapter, my personal conjecture was that the 6 Caturae were based on the 6 players who went to fight Promathia (one of them was the you from Abyssea), but it seems that that idea was blown out of the water.

**Ophannus** · 2011-09-15 15:54

Would have been cool if thats what they were, the demonized husks of YOU,Prishe,Ulmia,Selh'teus,Tenzen and Louverance.

**Eurell** · 2011-09-15 15:57

Originally Posted by Ophannus

Would have been cool if thats what they were, the demonized husks of YOU,Prishe,Ulmia,Selh'teus,Tenzen and Louverance.

I was about to write out some big connection about where they are placed and who they would be, like the one in mis. coast would be ulmia. The next caturae i thought of was raja and realized grauberg has nothing to do with CoP, so nvm!

**Spira** · 2011-09-16 00:34

it wouldn't fit either since Prishe didn't die. So the only thing we can say about them is that they're servants of the big P, probably.

**Septimus** · 2011-09-16 01:31

I was thinking more long the lines of the player character's party. But if you substitute Jabbos for Prishe, the number works out to be the same.

But once more, blown out of the water.

**Ocara** · 2011-09-16 04:29

Cats could be something like the living embodiment of the 'chains' of promathia, since they mentioned emotions being controlled when the cats drew near. So rage, envy, apathy, etc. Promathia had those chain attacks as well, maybe these are like Promathia's 'crystal warriors' in a sense. Doesn't explain wtf the new voidwatch one is though.

The only time Ou'Phat Obelisk was referenced in CoP was when nagmolada found Yevnoile in the chamber of eventide when he got to the palace in sea and said...

Spoiler: show

So it seems like it was some kind of burial chamber for the Zilart to return to the crystal or something. It's also not clear if tenemos was supposed to still be a part of the Obelisk after the name change or if they changed their minds on what to use the zone for.

before the airship fight nagmolada says...

Spoiler: show

so it appears proto-ultima/omega are ancient zilart original models, and nag somehow knew how to copy them (in a shittier way)

**Sobie** · 2011-09-16 18:41

So then, is he (Nag'molada) referring to Proto-Ultima/Omega, and Limbus is indeed connected directly to Sea, or could he be referring to the Jailers? Interesting stuff. I do have a question though, that is semi-related and off topic, but peoples knowledge of the background story here has be all excited.

For the longest time, I was trying to figure out what exactly Raogrimm encountered in the Northlands which turned him into the Shadowlord. I had suspected for a long time it was some dark Magicite or something.. When you do the Snoll Tzar mission and find that giant crystal under Ulegrerand Range, I was sure that was a piece of the crystal that cause Raogrimm to go all "hulk-smash."

I'm pretty sure that this has since been proven otherwise (even in this thread), however, now I am caught up (though not finished) with WotG and it is implied that the Shadowlord is a product of a dark deal made by Raogrimm and Odin. The fact that Lillith and co. are also in cahoots with Odin make it odd, but it does not contradict the Shadowlord theory (Odin plays both sides in the name of suffering and misery). Based on where I am in the story, the Shadowlord is pretty badass. The battle of Xarcabard turned out the way it was supposed to (complete disaster for the allies). It does not seem possible the allies of Altana ever stood a chance (except some divine intervention by Altana ) IE Our own verson of VanaDiel which is kind of shitty because it's a total deus machina but whatever.

I guess my question / comment / needs clarification, is that given Odin seems to be the "ultimate evil" of the game, (I always think of Promathia more like a force of nature), there does not seem to be a direct foil / opposite to Odin. Am I reading the game correctly in this, or am I way the fuck in left field.. I realize Alexander is supposed to be Odin's arch nemesis but Alex seems pretty lame since Odin can go around making deals to conquer the world and stuff, and Alex just sits around and does nothing.

Anyway a lot of thoughts there; sorry if it doesn't make sense.

**Ayn** · 2011-09-16 19:06

And for the question, Promathia wasn't after Phoenix. He didn't just change into Shinryu because he ate the Phoenix, he evolved because of the sheer amount of Emptiness that Selh'teus had absorbed.

Promakemon?

..Sorry, that's all I have to contribute. Really interesting discussion. I liked the theory that the Caturae were linked to the players in some way. There's some interesting potential there.

I did notice that when you see Prishe in Abyssea, she's not wearing that stupid hat. Guessing Shinryu ate it. I'm saddened we don't see him wearing it.

Sagacious Sundi · 2011-09-16 19:08

He also seems to be in charge of the underworld, which nowadays tends to be a position associated with "ultimate evils." But I see Odin as more a god of chaos (wars), emotions, decay/change (toppling the Shadow Lord's reign with Lilith's, and in the Bastok [S] storyline Marquis Amon seems to want Zeid to overthrow SL), and individuality, whereas Alex (from what little we've seen of him) seems to be a god of order (empires and whatnot), logic (just guessing that 'cause he's a robot), stability, and collectivism (again, I'm just guessing this because he's a robot and is associated with an "evil" empire).

I think Alexander and Odin are supposed to be equals in power. From my understanding, the reason Odin can interact with mortals and Alexander can't is because the way their last battle ended. For whatever reason, Odin got to have a protocrystal afterward and thus was able to communicate with people and got what'sherface to awaken him, thus allowing him to walk around in ToAU.

**Ocara** · 2011-09-16 19:19

Originally Posted by Sobie

So then, is he (Nag'molada) referring to Proto-Ultima/Omega, and Limbus is indeed connected directly to Sea, or could he be referring to the Jailers?

He was referring to proto-ultima/omega because that's right before he sics Omega on you. They are also referred to as biotechnological weapons, so they're some construct of the zilart. Why they are in temenos and apollyon is anyone's guess.

Originally Posted by Sobie

For the longest time, I was trying to figure out what exactly Raogrimm encountered in the Northlands which turned him into the Shadowlord. I had suspected for a long time it was some dark Magicite or something.. When you do the Snoll Tzar mission and find that giant crystal under Ulegrerand Range, I was sure that was a piece of the crystal that cause Raogrimm to go all "hulk-smash."

That was the Dark Protocrystal odin was once in. The beastman brought aldo's sister to it to sing the lay of the immortals, and freed Odin at some point before the war. A shard of it became the 'star of tavnazia' relic prishe threw into the face of promathia. (I think on that last one, anyway. I don't know why she'd have picked it up from the remnants of the shattered protocrystal after the snoll fight otherwise.)

Originally Posted by Sobie

I'm pretty sure that this has since been proven otherwise (even in this thread), however, now I am caught up (though not finished) with WotG and it is implied that the Shadowlord is a product of a dark deal made by Raogrimm and Odin. The fact that Lillith and co. are also in cahoots with Odin make it odd, but it does not contradict the Shadowlord theory (Odin plays both sides in the name of suffering and misery).

That's correct. Odin basically just finds desperate people who pique his interest (strong emotion) and makes dark deals with them for power. In actuality Odin gave the shadow lord the ability to rise again even if he was defeated as long as he had his anger or something, so essentially the allies would have never won the war.

Originally Posted by Sobie

I guess my question / comment / needs clarification, is that given Odin seems to be the "ultimate evil" of the game, (I always think of Promathia more like a force of nature), there does not seem to be a direct foil / opposite to Odin. Am I reading the game correctly in this, or am I way the fuck in left field.. I realize Alexander is supposed to be Odin's arch nemesis but Alex seems pretty lame since Odin can go around making deals to conquer the world and stuff, and Alex just sits around and does nothing.

Alex needs a vessel to enter this world, I'd guess because his protocrystal wasn't broken like Odin (or he doesnt have one?) and he can't freely roam. He kind of sucks though regardless, he opposes Odin but is almost as bad as him, wanting complete worship to him and subjugation (Based on the final toau and alex bcnm fight dialog.) They're both two bad extremes that only hate each other because they're opposites.

Altana/Promathia are more the gods of total life and death than dark and light. Odin and Alex are more the extremes of evil and good.

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