FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

**Souj** · 2011-09-16 19:26

Alex needs a vessel to enter this world, I'd guess because his protocrystal wasn't broken like Odin and he can't freely roam. He kind of sucks though regardless, he opposes Odin but is almost as bad as him, wanting complete worship to him and subjugation (Based on the final toau and alex bcnm fight dialog.) They're both two bad extremes that only hate each other because they're opposites.

Altana/Promathia are more the gods of total life and death than dark and light. Odin and Alex are more the extremes of evil and good.

If all the other celestial avatars were freed, (or any number of them), I;d garauntee they'd be mucking around and causing disastrous events just as bad as Odin was.
I wouldn't call any of them "good or bad", they just don't give a fuck about humans, so anything they do to them is inconsequential. (see stepping on ants analogy)

**Gwynplaine** · 2011-09-16 20:13

Originally Posted by Sobie

For the longest time, I was trying to figure out what exactly Raogrimm encountered in the Northlands which turned him into the Shadowlord. I had suspected for a long time it was some dark Magicite or something.. When you do the Snoll Tzar mission and find that giant crystal under Ulegrerand Range, I was sure that was a piece of the crystal that cause Raogrimm to go all "hulk-smash."

I'm pretty sure that this has since been proven otherwise (even in this thread), however, now I am caught up (though not finished) with WotG and it is implied that the Shadowlord is a product of a dark deal made by Raogrimm and Odin. The fact that Lillith and co. are also in cahoots with Odin make it odd, but it does not contradict the Shadowlord theory (Odin plays both sides in the name of suffering and misery). Based on where I am in the story, the Shadowlord is pretty badass. The battle of Xarcabard turned out the way it was supposed to (complete disaster for the allies). It does not seem possible the allies of Altana ever stood a chance (except some divine intervention by Altana ) IE Our own verson of VanaDiel which is kind of shitty because it's a total deus machina but whatever.

I guess my question / comment / needs clarification, is that given Odin seems to be the "ultimate evil" of the game, (I always think of Promathia more like a force of nature), there does not seem to be a direct foil / opposite to Odin. Am I reading the game correctly in this, or am I way the fuck in left field.. I realize Alexander is supposed to be Odin's arch nemesis but Alex seems pretty lame since Odin can go around making deals to conquer the world and stuff, and Alex just sits around and does nothing.

Anyway a lot of thoughts there; sorry if it doesn't make sense.

In regards to Roagrim becoming the Shadowlord, that's exactly it. He made a deal with Odin which is finally stated in WotG cutscenes. Long before this has always been implied. But it was not appropriate at the time to explicitly mention Odin or Alexander within those stories. Odin was only vaguely refereed to as the "dark deity". Post Aht Urghan however his details were all fleshed out and it his role could be shown explicitly. Odins old proto-crystal had existed in the Snoll Tzar BC in Uleguerand until the Beastmen brought the girl from the opening to unleash him.

As far as Odin not having a foil, I don't think he needs one. He isn't like the ultimate "evil" force who needs a "good" foil. Those are the roles of Altana and Promathia. When it comes to the avatars they're not really good or evil, they just are so powerful that their actions wind up having serious implications for the regular folk. And they don't particularly give a damn about us, they're just out for what they want.

Odin's role seems to be more like a force for planting and encouraging conflict and strife. His influences were said to have turned Lillith's reality into some kind of Nietzschean supreme struggle for the strongest to emerge. Whereas Alexander's role is to cast cold implacable judgement. Or at least that's what they say but he never really does a whole lot he just shows up and puts up a poor fight. But in any case it is a mistake to confuse them with the roles of good and evil just because they're dark and light themed.

**Spira** · 2011-09-17 02:20

Originally Posted by Ocara

He was referring to proto-ultima/omega because that's right before he sics Omega on you. They are also referred to as biotechnological weapons, so they're some construct of the zilart. Why they are in temenos and apollyon is anyone's guess.

My theory would be that they were guarding the celestial capital, or just residing there, as Nag'mo says.
Actually, out of all the possible theories for Apollyon and Temenos, right now what I think makes most sense is that Apollyon is really just Promyvion-Al'Taieu, or Lower Promyvion. It's a void created around the mothercrystal, and happened to draw in Proto-Ultima along with other anomalies..
Temenos would then be Ou'Phat Obelisk, where the Chamber of Eventide was. Because of it extracting all that emptiness out of people, an anomaly similar to Promyvion occured? causing random things to be drawn to its emptiness..? Proto-Ultima didn't need a reason to belong there. It was a Zilartian structure after all...

Originally Posted by Ocara

That was the Dark Protocrystal odin was once in. The beastman brought aldo's sister to it to sing the lay of the immortals, and freed Odin at some point before the war. A shard of it became the 'star of tavnazia' relic prishe threw into the face of promathia. (I think on that last one, anyway. I don't know why she'd have picked it up from the remnants of the shattered protocrystal after the snoll fight otherwise.)

Not entirely correct. When Raogrimm made the pact with Odin, the Dark Protocrystal was still intact. The protocrystal was only shattered when Emeline was brought to it, and that was very late in the war, after the Siege of Tavnazia. No idea where Odin went after being freed tho. One would think he wanted to go settle a score with Alexander.

Originally Posted by Ocara

Alex needs a vessel to enter this world, I'd guess because his protocrystal wasn't broken like Odin (or he doesnt have one?) and he can't freely roam. He kind of sucks though regardless, he opposes Odin but is almost as bad as him, wanting complete worship to him and subjugation (Based on the final toau and alex bcnm fight dialog.) They're both two bad extremes that only hate each other because they're opposites.

I think the necessity of a vessel was due to something that happened in the previous confrontations between Odin and Alexander. But its been a while since I last rewatched ToAU and Alex's quests.. so I'm not too sure. Will have to do it again soon to write the entire story on FF wiki lol.

Originally Posted by Ocara

Altana/Promathia are more the gods of total life and death than dark and light. Odin and Alex are more the extremes of evil and good.

Like others have mentioned, Altana and Promathia really are like the goddess of harmony and the god of discord (think Cosmos and Chaos). They really mirror in that extent, except that Promathia wants oblivion so much hes willing to die because of it.
These two kinda form the balance of life in Vana'diel. Essentially we don't need Promathia to be around because we already have fragments of him living within us to keep that balance.

Odin and Alex on the other hand are all pretty much neutral. They don't care who gets an upper hand so long as their wants are sated. Same goes with the other protocrystal avatars. They have absolutely no sense of belonging within this plane and kinda do whatever they like, so long as they can (except the others are sleeping and cannot manifest in Vana'diel on their own apart from during Waking the Beast).

**Kaisha** · 2011-09-17 03:38

So after burning through ZM on my mule, I just have to know....

Spoiler: show

**Forte** · 2011-09-17 04:31

Wouldn't it make some sense that the giant robot body Alex used to have could be his actual real body?

Also could someone explain all the plot that has been taken from Voidwatch? I have yet to see any gear from it that I want and after grinding out my AF3+2 I was a bit too burned out to try to learn yet another 'similar yet different' system.

**Sobie** · 2011-09-17 07:38

I think my brain is trying to wrap itself around the "heirarchy" or pantheon if Vana'diel. From what we know then, really Altana and Promathia are the only "true gods" of our world? The prime avatars (which include Odin and Alexander) are sort of like lesser gods of the crystals, while terrestrial avatars were animals when the world was "in paradise" and because super evolved in our world? I was always under the impression that the terrestrial avatars were more badass than the so called celestials (but that may be just a plot point - Bahamut V2 is much more intimidating than fighting Titan Prime etc.)

Is this more or less correct?

**ronin sparthos** · 2011-09-17 09:28

Originally Posted by Sobie

I think my brain is trying to wrap itself around the "heirarchy" or pantheon if Vana'diel. From what we know then, really Altana and Promathia are the only "true gods" of our world? The prime avatars (which include Odin and Alexander) are sort of like lesser gods of the crystals, while terrestrial avatars were animals when the world was "in paradise" and because super evolved in our world? I was always under the impression that the terrestrial avatars were more badass than the so called celestials (but that may be just a plot point - Bahamut V2 is much more intimidating than fighting Titan Prime etc.)

Is this more or less correct?

The celestials are as much true gods as Promathia and Altana as they existed in the primordial "paradise" together at some time.

The terrestrials are your gods of Vana'diel but pale in comparison to the powers of the original gods. Carbuncles plan to show the experiences of the people living on Vana'diel to the slumbering gods (through summoning) is a pretty good example of the hierarchy at work as if the slumbering gods were to awaken they may attempt to revert the world to paradise and there would be very little the terrestrials could do.

**Damane** · 2011-09-17 11:28

Originally Posted by Ocara

Alex needs a vessel to enter this world, I'd guess because his protocrystal wasn't broken like Odin (or he doesnt have one?) and he can't freely roam. He kind of sucks though regardless, he opposes Odin but is almost as bad as him, wanting complete worship to him and subjugation (Based on the final toau and alex bcnm fight dialog.) They're both two bad extremes that only hate each other because they're opposites.

Altana/Promathia are more the gods of total life and death than dark and light. Odin and Alex are more the extremes of evil and good.

If I am not mistaken, the last vessel of Alexander pre ToAU storyline, were basicly the alzaadal undersea ruins, or the alzaadal ruins. Its basicly one gigantic robot. Was it ever mentioned, why Alexander failed that gigantic battle in ages past against Odin? If I remember correctly that battle destroyed the world almost or somethign like that.

Funny coincidence since alzaadal ruins were the last vessel of Alexander, we encounter Alexander only there (may it be for the ToAU final battle, or for the prime-avatar fight), could it be that Alexanders proto-crystal is somewhere hidden around the alzaadal ruins?

And last question: We have the 5 terrestial avatars. Where do Odin, Alex and Atomos fit there in? They are not refered as the terrestial avatars, yet their power is far greater then the celestial or terrestial avatars it seems.

**Gwynplaine** · 2011-09-17 12:22

IIRC there was also a mention in the game that the ruins of alexander were once used by an ancient emperor in the Near East who used it to destroy and conquer kingdoms. So it seems like Alex has been used as a tool for destruction throughout the ages. They never give any hints about any light protocrystal. Maybe he simply never had one since by nature he is rather disembodied until he gains an earthly vessel.

Odin and Alex are celestial avatars as well, they have been on the star charts since the beginning of the game. The only difference is that they are running free unlike the other celestials who slumber in their protocrystal. The avatars like Cait Sith and Atamos were never part of the main lore of the terrestial/celestials. Personally I would refer to them as Utilitarian avatars or something because they seem to have been created by the Godess to act with one specific role in our world. E.g. Atamos' function is to correct the contradictions between alternate realities, Cait Sith's function is to lessen the war's suffering or guide Altana's children or whatever, I don't remember.

**Spira** · 2011-09-17 13:34

Originally Posted by Kaisha

So after burning through ZM on my mule, I just have to know....

Spoiler: show

Apparently in order to reactivate Tu'Lia, the Zilart princes needed to reactivate the Chrysalis Core within Delkfutt Tower (or more specifically Stellar Fulcrum).
Kam'lanaut was originally tasked to do this, but seeing as you kill him in battle he cannot. Eald'narche doesn't give a shit because he has a back-up plan in the form of Verena and the Shadow Lord's head (not sure if its a real head or a figurative manifestation of the Shadow Lord's memory).

Because the Shadow Lord is the Talekeeper, he stores within him the thoughts/memories of all those before him, including some "memory of the ancients". Verena on the other hand, was shown to display resonance with beastmen... (he discovered this during rank missions) and could be used as an instrument to tap into the Shadow Lord's memories.

I'm assuming at this point Kam'lanaut had the means to personally reactivate the core without the need of a resonator or the memories (he's ancient, after all), but perhaps Eald'narche cannot do it himself (because Kam'la mentions in the CS that Eald "needs" him for that).

So, that head is either a manifestation/symbol of the Shadow Lord's mind, or really is his actual head.

I thought it was kinda sad cos it really put down the Shadow Lord's status as FFXI's vanilla final boss..

**Priran** · 2011-09-17 13:48

Originally Posted by Sobie

Bahamut V2 is much more intimidating than fighting Titan Prime etc

Tuning Fork limitations. The normal tuning fork awakens the avatar enough to fight at that strength, the mini tuning forks call a severely weakened form, the Rainbow Resonator calls a much stronger form, as would the fork developed by Leppe-Hoppe for Shikaree Y had she been able to find a protocrystal.

Sagacious Sundi · 2011-09-17 15:08

Also, if an avatar has "Prime" in its name, it's just an astral projection and not the real deal, no?

**ronin sparthos** · 2011-09-17 16:04

Originally Posted by Sagacious Sundi

Also, if an avatar has "Prime" in its name, it's just an astral projection and not the real deal, no?

This is what we're led to believe, yeah.

The Odin in final chamber of Einherjar is the actual celestial avatar whereas the battlefield for the pact is against a weaker fragment of the overall being. Alexander in the final TOAU battlefield and his pact BCNM are the same celestial avatar with notable improvements in his control over the vessel (flight, stronger spells, images) in the short time that elapses on Vana'diel.

As it stands, the adventurer has fought against:

-Bahamut
-Diabolos
-Fenrir
-Odin
-Alexander

all in their "true" forms.

**Septimus** · 2011-09-17 16:18

Originally Posted by Gwynplaine

In regards to Roagrim becoming the Shadowlord, that's exactly it. He made a deal with Odin which is finally stated in WotG cutscenes. Long before this has always been implied. But it was not appropriate at the time to explicitly mention Odin or Alexander within those stories. Odin was only vaguely refereed to as the "dark deity". Post Aht Urghan however his details were all fleshed out and it his role could be shown explicitly. Odins old proto-crystal had existed in the Snoll Tzar BC in Uleguerand until the Beastmen brought the girl from the opening to unleash him.

As far as Odin not having a foil, I don't think he needs one. He isn't like the ultimate "evil" force who needs a "good" foil. Those are the roles of Altana and Promathia. When it comes to the avatars they're not really good or evil, they just are so powerful that their actions wind up having serious implications for the regular folk. And they don't particularly give a damn about us, they're just out for what they want.

Odin's role seems to be more like a force for planting and encouraging conflict and strife. His influences were said to have turned Lillith's reality into some kind of Nietzschean supreme struggle for the strongest to emerge. Whereas Alexander's role is to cast cold implacable judgement. Or at least that's what they say but he never really does a whole lot he just shows up and puts up a poor fight. But in any case it is a mistake to confuse them with the roles of good and evil just because they're dark and light themed.

Although nearly all of the strife in the last 20 years has been because of Odin and his pact with Raogrimm, he is not that bad of a guy. At the end of ToAU:

Spoiler: show

From what little we know about the other Celestials, Odin isn't as big of a dick as them. You are correct about the good and evil/light and dark themes, as the tropes go: "Light is not good", "Dark is not evil". Alexander is most definitely not a good guy. Then again, "Good is not nice"... I miss going to that site.

Originally Posted by ronin sparthos

The celestials are as much true gods as Promathia and Altana as they existed in the primordial "paradise" together at some time.

The terrestrials are your gods of Vana'diel but pale in comparison to the powers of the original gods. Carbuncles plan to show the experiences of the people living on Vana'diel to the slumbering gods (through summoning) is a pretty good example of the hierarchy at work as if the slumbering gods were to awaken they may attempt to revert the world to paradise and there would be very little the terrestrials could do.

I think that while the Celestials are true gods of Vana'diel like Altana and Promathia, they probably not as powerful as Altana. The only real evidence I can point to is that they fell into slumber when Altana separated the Mother Crystals, but they either didn't or couldn't stop her from doing it.

I am not sure how well Carbuncle's plan is going to work out. In Waking the Beast, the 6 Celestials were pretty much giant dicks.

Originally Posted by Spira

Apparently in order to reactivate Tu'Lia, the Zilart princes needed to reactivate the Chrysalis Core within Delkfutt Tower (or more specifically Stellar Fulcrum).
Kam'lanaut was originally tasked to do this, but seeing as you kill him in battle he cannot. Eald'narche doesn't give a shit because he has a back-up plan in the form of Verena and the Shadow Lord's head (not sure if its a real head or a figurative manifestation of the Shadow Lord's memory).

Because the Shadow Lord is the Talekeeper, he stores within him the thoughts/memories of all those before him, including some "memory of the ancients". Verena on the other hand, was shown to display resonance with beastmen... (he discovered this during rank missions) and could be used as an instrument to tap into the Shadow Lord's memories.

I'm assuming at this point Kam'lanaut had the means to personally reactivate the core without the need of a resonator or the memories (he's ancient, after all), but perhaps Eald'narche cannot do it himself (because Kam'la mentions in the CS that Eald "needs" him for that).

So, that head is either a manifestation/symbol of the Shadow Lord's mind, or really is his actual head.

I thought it was kinda sad cos it really put down the Shadow Lord's status as FFXI's vanilla final boss..

I did a post about this not too long ago.

Originally Posted by Septimus

As for the ZM1 cutscene, if you read it carefully, when Raogrimm regained his sanity the noise in the Crystal Line (His connection with Odin) cleared up. They needed Raogrimm as the Talekeeper (i.e. not the insane bundle of rage known as the Shadow Lord) because he carried the "Memories of the ancients" in his blood. (This is explained in the Stellar Fulcrum BC.) All 5 races of Vana'diel evolved from the Zilart after the Meltdown, because of how the the Galkan reincarnation process works, the Talekeeper has memories that go back 10,000 years but doesn't know that he carries them. (Eald'narche said, "What he carried was not in his mind, but in his blood.") He used Aldo's sister Verena's gift of being able to speak to the beastmen to harness those memories to restore the Chrysalis Core and open the path to Tu'Lia.

I think that was his real head since they needed the memories in his blood.

**Ophannus** · 2011-09-17 18:53

I feel like Celestials are like Level 1 Skillchain Elements: Fire/Ice/Lightning/Dark/Light etc

Promathia/Altana are like Level 3 Skillchains LIGHT/DARK. Or officially: Twilight/Dawn. They're aligned with Light/Dark but have dominion over the Celestials.

**Souj** · 2011-09-17 19:01

I think you are oversimplifying things.
and making crappy analogies.

**Septimus** · 2011-09-17 19:04

Originally Posted by Ophannus

I feel like Celestials are like Level 1 Skillchain Elements: Fire/Ice/Lightning/Dark/Light etc

Promathia/Altana are like Level 3 Skillchains LIGHT/DARK. Or officially: Twilight/Dawn. They're aligned with Light/Dark but have dominion over the Celestials.

I think in that metaphor, I would consider Altana to be Cosmic Elucidation. (Yes, it leaves out the Dawn Skillchain, but she seems to be unquestionably the strongest of the Vana'diel gods.)

**Souj** · 2011-09-17 19:29

I'd say the best comparison would be Altana as Zeus.

**Septimus** · 2011-09-17 20:14

Originally Posted by Souj

I'd say the best comparison would be Altana as Zeus.

It is hard to pin a good mythological comparison of Altana down. I would say Atum-Ra because they are both progenitor/creator gods. But Atum is not overwhelmingly powerful in his Pantheon, every night he is challenged by Apep and needs the help of Set and others to fend Apep off. You can compare her to Zeus as they are both the most overwhelmingly powerful gods in their Pantheons, but Zeus in not a progenitor/creator. Odin is the most powerful of the Aesir, but he is much like Atum in that there are others who can challenge him. (Fenrir for example.)

It is actually a fairly interesting back story that they developed for the games mythology.

**Souj** · 2011-09-17 20:48

Also Zues actually got shit done. I was just referring to how She was the "father" of all the gods and ruled over them(though i guess we can't assume she did), but not all the gods necessarily had his best interests in mind. Actually, I think it seems like none of the avatars, or Zilart gave a shit about what Altana wanted, if they even know. She certainty seems to be insanely passive when it comes to everything.

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