FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

[Gwynplaine]

She certainty seems to be insanely passive when it comes to everything.

Yes in the story Altana is very much not like the modern idea of an Abrahamic God who is omnipotent and directly controls the universe. (Which is the older classical Greek-like conception of God) Although she might, she doesn't go about things in that way. She sort of "created" the world we exist in and then sets things in motion only by creating other things that take action FOR her. So she sets the scene, and makes the actors, but she doesn't control the exact outcome or explicitly go and muck around directly in the world herself.

As an abstract she is basically the natural force of creation, life, and order, while Promathia is an abstract for the force of destruction and death. They're the fundamental forces. The avatars are her busy little creations that give the world something more complex and particular.

[Priran]

It's a bit of a stretch to call Altana omnipotent when the plot of WotG is basically about how she accidentally created a boulder so heavy she couldn't lift it.

[Souj]

Few CoP questions:

1. Sehltus was using the player character and the amulet to travel to the mother crystals, correct? and when there he would take the light which would allow the emptiness to take over. Hope I'm right on that cause this question's based on that.
How was Mea/Dem/Holla already infected with emptiness before we even got there? Vazhl was fine until after we led Sehltus there.

2. At the 4th mothercrystal, Nagmolada tells Selhtus he betrayed everyone and everything. one thing he said was "Though you have inherited the will of the slumbering gods, you betrayed them as well... ". What's he talking about here? The celestials? Altana/Promathia? and what will? opening the gates?

3. Nagmolada has had the Eye of Altana (the thing that turns emptiness into magicite) since like CoP mission 2-3, but he never used it on himself. Was there any reason not to? He did want to become a Zilart, and he knew how to use it cause he threatened Selhtus with it. I assume because it wouldn't turn him into a "perfect zilart"? and a sub question which could answer the 1st part; did Prishe have a whisper of the soul? I know she was able to understand Selhtus, but i think she had the amulet, the amulet which Eshantarl gave to her so she could keep an eye on Prishe. But how did Eshantarl use it to "spy" on prishe, while Prishe wasn't able to read Eshantarl?

4. Diabolos says that Fenrir is still powerless. What was he powerless from? The events that went on in the Windurst missions with his revival and all?

5.Prishe was originally the Keeper of the Apocalypse, but then Eshantarl used the Eye of Altana to magicititize her emptiness, stopping her from being the Keeper. Then the Zilart guy in Altaieu became the Keeper, and once the crystal line to Altaieu opened a bit, Bahamut could feel the Keeper's presence so he awoke. Why didn't he awaken when Prishe was the Keeper?

[Sagacious Sundi]

2. Slumbering gods always refers to celestials (which is just a player-made term). We know he was against the Zilart who had the same desire as the celestials (to open the Gates of Paradise), so he probably gained some powers from them (like how we get the whispers of flame/tremors/etc. after we prove ourselves).

4. Yeah, regardless of your status in Windurst missions, Fenrir is still weakened, hence why Carbuncle wants you to give Fenrir some power of the sleeping gods in The Moonlit Path and Waking the Beast.

5. I think Bahamut was blocking the part of the Crystal Line leading to Al'Taieu, so he was unable to act until it was reactivated.

[Odin'sLaw]

just random points i've noted over the past couple pages

i used to think that tem and apo were some form of holding place inside of the Emptiness but i'm wondering if they were actually some form of research facility (omega and ultima been there security defenses)

i wasn't to sure if the celestial Gods were always gods and not just people/creators with over whelming magical energy so when there bodies laid to rest there bodies exploded with this raw energy forming Crystals

Ramuh is an old man likened to a sage
Leviathan is a huge and powerful sea beast that plagued the oceans
Ifrit was ment to be a inhuman king that was cursed from all his slaughterings

don't think the other gods had any back story from the tribual times

[Priran]

Ramuh is an old man likened to a sage
Leviathan is a huge and powerful sea beast that plagued the oceans
Ifrit was ment to be a inhuman king that was cursed from all his slaughterings

don't think the other gods had any back story from the tribual times

garuda was a pet bird who died saving her owner in a sort of icarus-esque fashion
shiva was an exiled princess who froze to death
titan was some ferngully shit and died trying to not crush a little girl during his execution

[Septimus]

Few CoP questions:

1. Sehltus was using the player character and the amulet to travel to the mother crystals, correct? and when there he would take the light which would allow the emptiness to take over. Hope I'm right on that cause this question's based on that.
How was Mea/Dem/Holla already infected with emptiness before we even got there? Vazhl was fine until after we led Sehltus there.

2. At the 4th mothercrystal, Nagmolada tells Selhtus he betrayed everyone and everything. one thing he said was "Though you have inherited the will of the slumbering gods, you betrayed them as well... ". What's he talking about here? The celestials? Altana/Promathia? and what will? opening the gates?

3. Nagmolada has had the Eye of Altana (the thing that turns emptiness into magicite) since like CoP mission 2-3, but he never used it on himself. Was there any reason not to? He did want to become a Zilart, and he knew how to use it cause he threatened Selhtus with it. I assume because it wouldn't turn him into a "perfect zilart"? and a sub question which could answer the 1st part; did Prishe have a whisper of the soul? I know she was able to understand Selhtus, but i think she had the amulet, the amulet which Eshantarl gave to her so she could keep an eye on Prishe. But how did Eshantarl use it to "spy" on prishe, while Prishe wasn't able to read Eshantarl?

4. Diabolos says that Fenrir is still powerless. What was he powerless from? The events that went on in the Windurst missions with his revival and all?

5.Prishe was originally the Keeper of the Apocalypse, but then Eshantarl used the Eye of Altana to magicititize her emptiness, stopping her from being the Keeper. Then the Zilart guy in Altaieu became the Keeper, and once the crystal line to Altaieu opened a bit, Bahamut could feel the Keeper's presence so he awoke. Why didn't he awaken when Prishe was the Keeper?

1. I thought that Selh'teus got to the Dem, Mea, and Hola Mother Crystals before we got there. But it has been a long time since I did CoP, so there is a strong chance that misremembering the event order.

2. Sagacious Sundi is correct. Ifrit, Shiva, Garuda, Titan, Ramuh, Levuthan, Alexander, and Odin are collectively known as "The Sleeping Gods." (Although Odin is no longer sleeping, and Alexander is kind of half-awake. But very few people in Vana'diel actually know that.) But I will add in that while the Zilart believe that the Celestials want to open the Gates of Paradise, they may have other ideas. Odin has been perfectly happy roaming around for 20 years now, and this was before Carbuncle's plan. But that sort of certainty would be in character with the arrogance of the Zilart.

3. Freezing your Emptiness into Magicite isn't the same as removing it. For a Kuluu to become a Zilart, his/her Emptiness has to be completely removed. (It did turn Prishe immortal, but she may have just been a special case since she was the former Keeper of the Apocalypse.) Had Nag'molada used the Eye of Altana on Selh'teus, it would have been disastrous because he contained a huge amount of Emptiness, it probably would have exploded him. Prishe did not have the Whisper of Soul, it was her amulet that allowed her to communicate with Selh'teus. It is entirely possible that the communication from the amulets was not a two-way street. It would be in the Zilart's nature to make a device that allowed them to hear what the Kuluu thought, but not vice-versa.

4. Because of Karaha-Baruha's complete summoning, Fenrir died with him. When the Joker Cardian was revived, part of Karaha-Baruha's soul came back which brought Fenrir part-way back but in a severely weakened state. Although he is stronger after the Windurst missions he has a way to go until he is complete. They probably left the dialog from Diabolos to be vague like that so that they wouldn't have to branch the dialog based off of your Windurst mission status.

5. Probably because she wasn't ready to be the full-fledged Keeper of the Apocalypse when Esha'ntarl froze her Emptiness. She was still pretty young at that point, had she reached adulthood the Will of Promathia would have taken over, Bahamut would have awaken, and she would have tried fulfilled her duties as the Keeper of the Apocalypse. Just a guess though.

[Ophannus]

Can someone pelase explain to me once and for all what/who is the Keeper of the Apocalypse? They throw this term around so often in CoP and the actual Keeper keeps changing it seems but what is "The Keeper of the Apocalypse", who or what decides who becomes a Keeper and who actually becomes Keeper?

[Apelila]

Skimming over a couple things, but go back and watch the cutscene and you'll see the head of the shadowlord dripping blood.

[Kaisha]

Skimming over a couple things, but go back and watch the cutscene and you'll see the head of the shadowlord dripping blood.

Was it blood? It looked like black smoke to me. >.>


Also, regarding Al'taieu, what's the dilly-o with the 'corrupted' look of parts of it? One of the luminians outside said something about the cities defense activating when Bahamut made that shot at the capital, I'm guessing that's what made the red light that the crew sees on the airship after the PM7-5 fight and flies toward it?

[EDIT] Answered the corrupted bit for myself. Something about spatial transference. Wish I could a log of what all the luminians say in sea, too lazy to check them all.

Spoiler: show

Since I already did it years ago for the damn maps for these blasted cookie cutter zones.

As for the whole bit with the crystal scene after, I have no fucking clue how they ended up there, or how they got ported/stranded in sea after.


I also do not know how I forgot that the Chamber of Eventides is in the basement of Hu'xzoi.



On a side note, does anyone else get depressed when you see a part of a zone that looks like it had grander intentions but was cut short due to time constraints/budget? It was obvious there was supposed to be other intentions for Apollyon/Temenos at first. A lot of zones also have hidden empty sections of map that were blocked off in a "let's just put this random object/ground in the way". Halzahm (sp?) also looked like it was originally going to be something completely different with its layout.

[Apelila]

I'll go get a screenshot when I get home, but I'm 100% its supposed to be blood. I remember my first thought when seeing it was how gory it was supposed to look vs how cartoony it did look, then it started dripping.

[Souj]

2:32

All smoke it looks like to me.

[Kaisha]

To be fair, our 'blood' in battle is also just puffs. ERSB ratings ftw, it could be blood for all we know.

[Apelila]

(i'll admit to it being 5+ years since I've seen it) but IMO it could go either way, it just doesn't look like any of the other smoke effect in the game that I'm aware of. If you've ever seen an ochain PLD on mandies it does look like the blood effect.

[Septimus]

Can someone pelase explain to me once and for all what/who is the Keeper of the Apocalypse? They throw this term around so often in CoP and the actual Keeper keeps changing it seems but what is "The Keeper of the Apocalypse", who or what decides who becomes a Keeper and who actually becomes Keeper?

The Keeper of the Apocalypse is the body that is the vessel for Promathia's return. Who or what decides it? I guess Promathia does? Or fate maybe? That part is vague.

About 10,000 years ago Fenrir told Eald'narche that the Keeper of the Apocalypse would be born in a place called "Tavnazia", that person was Prishe. Over 30 years ago Esha'ntarl used the Eye of Altana to freeze Prishe's Emptiness into Magicite so that she would be an unsuitable host to be the keeper (the side effect was her immortality), so the next best vessel became the Keeper of the Apocalypse: the King of the Zilart. (Kam'lanaut, Eald'narche, and Esha'ntarl's father.) Or maybe he was supposed to be the Keeper of the Apocalypse from the start, but because Al'Taieu is trapped in another dimension a new keeper had to be chosen, it is all really confusing.

[Gwynplaine]

This thread is always interesting, but it always returns to the same old stuff.

I'm curious what your thoughts are for some of the current ongoing story and where it's heading. We all know that the current scheme of making up time travel and new dimensions is a really bad plot device that obliterates any excuse of internal logic. And ultimately it's just a means for Square to keep recycling content while it develops FFXIV. But nevertheless it's the only new story we got, so why not discuss it too.

(Wings and Abyssea spoilers follow) Vanadiel is getting pretty packed with all of it's extra dimensional alternatives. So far there is:

Spoiler: show

1 - The player's original dimension, where we always beated the guys in the espansions because we don't suck. The Allies win the war, we defeated Promathia, life is good.

2 - Lilith's alternate reality, the world of strife. According to her it was the first dimension of reality where the Allies lost the Crystal War. But Altana was so bummed she just made up our dimension instead where the Allies won. In Lilith's world however the allied races of light resort to forging a pact with Odin to survive and continue endlessly battling the Beastmen races. They "survive" but at the expense of selling out to Odin and living in constant strife. In this world the Shadowlord presumably isn't killed, hence the noise in the crystal line remains, hence the zilart princes never enact the plot of Rise of the Zilart. Which come to think of that, wouldn't that also imply the events of CoP couldn't unfold also?

3 - The Abyssea dimension that slit off in a reality where the player lost his fight with Promathia in CoP. Promathia then absorbed Selhteus and became more powerful and also a dragony thing. The mothercrystals left the crags (presumably destroying them since they're gone). They take position around the capital Altieau which fell to the moon. The few survivors struggle to fight against an onslaught of monsters.

So where the heck is all this heading? I get the sense that Wings/Abyssea/Voidwatch are interelated and the current Voidwatch mini plot is leading up to some kind of cause behind all of it. (Voidwatch spoiler)

Spoiler: show

With the way reskinned Cait Sith approaches you and states he's a different Cait than the one you know, it must be yet another alternate reality coming into play. Maybe an alternate Wings of the Goddess storyline to really confuse shit, where the player lost against Lilith at the end.

On a final note there's some lazy shit that confuses me. What dimension are the Voidwalkers and Voidwatch NMs from? Are Voidwalkers from Abyssea? If so then where are the Voidwalkers from within Abyssea from? Why do some of the Voidwatch enemies seem like they're from non-mainland areas like the East or South? (I guess they're from the alternate dimension where Square made a real fucking expansion)

[Spira]

just to point out for those curious about the Voidwatch story, based on my skimming of the dats, this update doesn't add any new info about Voidwatch at all.

You do get another CS with the cait and the king tho.

[Souj]

Voidwalkers, judging only by their name, I would assume they are not from any dimension, but from the void between the dimensions!

[Septimus]

Voidwalkers, judging only by their name, I would assume they are not from any dimension, but from the void between the dimensions!

That's just where they take the walks. Like Mall Walkers and Street Walkers.

[Fereydoon]

On a final note there's some lazy shit that confuses me. What dimension are the Voidwalkers and Voidwatch NMs from? Are Voidwalkers from Abyssea? If so then where are the Voidwalkers from within Abyssea from? Why do some of the Voidwatch enemies seem like they're from non-mainland areas like the East or South? (I guess they're from the alternate dimension where Square made a real fucking expansion)

Outside Voidwalkers are supposed to be Abyssean in nature, iirc. As for the ones inside, whenever you pick up a clear abyssite the NPC mentions some fiends choosing to hide so you find them with the Abyssite. They could be VNMs that were going to cross over, and we got them preemptively.