FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

[ronin sparthos]

I've been doing WOG missions latly and i'm up to where Lilith talks about both future.

But did she ever explained how she because Lilith, like when she was young was she a spiritual Lilisette like in the missions or was she always evil like that?

Massive spoils, read when you finish WOTG or when you desire to spoil it all.

Spoiler: show

Lilith is merely a production of the war-torn future she grew up in and we're led to assume that before her pact with Odin, she looked exactly like Lilisette though her personality varied thanks to the different timelines. Whereas Lilisette is positive and has a generally upbeat personality, Lilith is a realist, calculating and ever focused on achieving her goals by any means. Lilith states that she was once like Lilisette but it's quite hard to be upbeat and cheerful when people you care about are being killed off left and right I imagine.

Apparently, the horns, claws and leathery black wings came with her Odin pact which isn't exactly a stretch given what Raogrimm became after acquiring his Shadow Lord powers.

I wouldn't really call Lilith "evil" either moreso a tragic heroine. Her world is a dystopia, the people have given up hope but she and the spitewardens represent the last bastion of hope to turn their world around. The fatal flaw? Becoming pawns of Odin thinking that acquiring such power would allow them to overtake the Shadow Lord.

To Lilith and her merry band, you're the "evil" one for working on behalf of Altana to erase the future they come from in order to secure your own timelines existence. Lilith's transformation into a likeness of Altana in the final battle is no coincidence since to the people of her world she might as well be the Dawn Goddess.

It almost makes you feel bad for the lass. Well, at least till Lilisette volunteers to travel to the world of ruin to take up her transdimensional counterparts battle against evil.

[Septimus]

Spoiler: show

Lilith is merely a production of the war-torn future she grew up in and we're led to assume that before her pact with Odin, she looked exactly like Lilisette though her personality varied thanks to the different timelines. Whereas Lilisette is positive and has a generally upbeat personality, Lilith is a realist, calculating and ever focused on achieving her goals by any means.

Apparently, the horns, claws and leathery black wings came with her Odin pact which isn't exactly a stretch given what Raogrimm became after acquiring his Shadow Lord powers.

I wouldn't really call Lilith "evil" moreso a tragic heroine. Her world is a dystopia, the people have all but given up hope but she and the spitewardens represent the last bastion of hope to turn their world around. The fatal flaw? Becoming pawns of Odin in order to bring harmony to their world.

If he is doing the missions, he will see that eventually. That is why I didn't spell it out.

But...

Spoiler: show

I wouldn't call Lilith a tragic hero, maybe on her best day is was a Byronic hero, but she is definitely a fallen hero. She started off with good intentions, but she eventually took the plunge into full-scale villainy. The last fight was the perfect example; Lilisette wanted to save both of the worlds, but instead of hearing her out and helping, Lilith jumped straight into clichéd villainy by fighting even though she already knew how to save both of the futures from Atomos.

And seriously, someone needs to put a boot upside Odin's ass for the shit he has pulled in this game.

[Ophannus]

Spoiler: show

Lilith reminds me of Anderson from Hellsing. Anderson was a priest of the vatican out to destroy Alucard, the most powerful Vampire. Realizing his strength wasn't enough he stabbed himself with one of the nails that crucified Jesus and gained monster-of-god powers but by doing so became similar to the very evil he was trying to kill, a vessal without humanity. So technically Lilith, like Anderson is a fallen hero. She gained the very power Raogrimm gained in order to secure her world's future but became twisted by the malice and rage.

ALSO!

Spoiler: show

I wonder if Lillisette changed her name to lilith because of how Mayakov pronounced her name>(Yeah i know who Lilith was historically, but it would be fan service if the Mayakov thing was the in-game reason) cuz I think Lilith would be the lispy way to pronounce Lilisette.

[Spira]

whilst i agree with pretty much everything said above

Spoiler: show

i'd consider Lilith to be a fallen hero myself. basically she adopted the whole 'intention justify the means' route, which made her end up becoming like that.

As for Ascendant, I always saw it as a result of her absorbing Lilisette's power due to being one of the 2 Wings of the Goddess. This, and the fact that they probably wanted to introduce a final boss out of Altana to mirror that of Promathia, the other almighty god, except that it is almost impossible to ever fight Altana due to her benevolent nature, so her form is merely assumed by someone else.

In essense, if Altana ever had a battle model, Lilith Ascendant would be it.

[ronin sparthos]

If he is doing the missions, he will see that eventually. That is why I didn't spell it out.

But...

Spoiler: show

I wouldn't call Lilith a tragic hero, maybe on her best day is was a Byronic hero, but she is definitely a fallen hero. She started off with good intentions, but she eventually took the plunge into full-scale villainy. The last fight was the perfect example; Lilisette wanted to save both of the worlds, but instead of hearing her out and helping, Lilith jumped straight into clichéd villainy by fighting even though she already knew how to save both of the futures from Atomos.

And seriously, someone needs to put a boot upside Odin's ass for the shit he has pulled in this game.

Spoiler: show

Indeed Lilith has the qualities of a Byronic and a fallen hero but the tragic sense comes out in her hatred of Altana who she had a legitimate grievance with. I didn't see the final battle as an act of cliche villainy moreso an attempt to spite Altana for all the hell she's been through. Lilith winds up being a pitiable pawn of the gods who under different conditions could have been best friends with the adventurer. (oh you, SE)

Now giving that random redshirt Odin powers only to watch him become overwhelmed by it? Now that was villainous behavior and totally uncalled for. But it was awesome.

Odin's really just doing what he's tasked to do and that is being a jerkass god like the other celestials but what the hell was Altana doing as goddess of harmony before coming to the realization that things had gone horribly wrong in the infinite Shadowreign? Was she asleep at the cosmic wheel or in the cosmic ladies room and then suddenly realized things had gone to hell on Vana'diel?

"Oh my, my creations are killing themselves a bit too much. This doesn't bode well at all. *breaks glass* *pulls a lever* RESET BUTTON!"

Spoiler: show

I wonder if Lillisette changed her name to lilith because of how Mayakov pronounced her name>(Yeah i know who Lilith was historically, but it would be fan service if the Mayakov thing was the in-game reason) cuz I think Lilith would be the lispy way to pronounce Lilisette.

Spoiler: show

I took the name change as a sign of growing up akin to how someone named Bobby might revert to the proper name Robert as they mature. The biblical reference is bonus.

[Odin'sLaw]

from the ending of WoTG is Dynamis's the "real future" or another dimension we just have to deal with?

[Damane]

from the ending of WoTG is Dynamis's the "real future" or another dimension we just have to deal with?

Dynamis is not the Future. Dynamis is as far as I know Diabolos realm for the fallen souls that may slumber there forever (in piece?). Its actually the present. I think it was even explained in CoP what exactly the purpose of his realm is and why he created it, but I have totally forgotten that.

[ronin sparthos]

It was originally a pocket dimension created by Diabolos to help the Kuluu who were affected by the Emptiness.

[Souj]

Not sure about that.
Kuluu asked Diabolos to remove their emptiness. He did, ad it's implied that is what changed them to tonberry.
From what I remember, Dynamis was created as a way for Diabolos to save people from the horror and pain of the war and preserve their lives. He wanted to do the same to all people on vanadiel once Bahamut awoke as he felt it was the only way to save mankind from extinction.

[Odin'sLaw]

Not sure about that.
Kuluu asked Diabolos to remove their emptiness. He did, ad it's implied that is what changed them to tonberry.
From what I remember, Dynamis was created as a way for Diabolos to save people from the horror and pain of the war and preserve their lives. He wanted to do the same to all people on vanadiel once Bahamut awoke as he felt it was the only way to save mankind from extinction.

wait diabolos is a good guy? >_>

[calinz]

Hmm, I always thought dynamis was an alternate future where the beastmen had won the war and occupied the cities? What other reason is there for the beastmen to be there if diabolos created it to save the people...

[Seraph]

Hmm, I always thought dynamis was an alternate future where the beastmen had won the war and occupied the cities? What other reason is there for the beastmen to be there if diabolos created it to save the people...

Spoiler: show

Some unexplained event occurs during one of the northern battles of the crystal war and both allied forces and the beastmen participating in the battle were somehow sucked into Dynamis together. The Hydra Corps members eventually descend into madness and become the Hydra shadows there now. This combined with the fact that part of (or all of?) the Shadowlord's spirit drifted there as well seems to have caused the pocket dimension of Dynamis to become the shithole that we have come to experience.

After all this takes place, there is further corruption to CoP Dynamis due to the tainted forbidden dreams of Lion during and after her imprisonment in the Crystal Line during Apocalypse Nigh. Diabolos implies vaguely that he has lost control of the realm and asks you to resolve it. Nothing ever really comes of this because even when you succeed in clearing all the zones there is a plot handwave done about how things will continue to stay broken as long as the dreamer keeps dreaming, which is similar to the whole 'the Dynamis Lord will always exist as long as their is hatred in the world' plot band-aid.

With that said, I think much of the game plot concerning Dynamis was either poorly planned out, or a complete retcon, especially with the CoP Dynamis zones.

[Spira]

dynamis is a dream world where people would no longer have to worry about anything because it could differ from reality. it is a place of comfort pulled over the eyes of those who would embrace it. truth being that those who remain in it are trapped in the dream, trapped in stasis for eternity. dynamis was however tainted by the power that the shadow lord held.. which led to it becoming kind of a not so nice place to be in.

Dynamis is ruled by Diabolos, and yes diabolos is "good", being a servant of altana. His methods (getting people to live in a dreamed up false reality) aren't exactly the most optimistic tho.

[Selamis]

Explained like that, it makes it seem as if Dynamis was a version of a Vana'diel Matrix lol.

[Niiro]

What Spira said. When Roag/SL dies "for reals" at the start of RoZ courtesy of the crystal warriors he winds up in dynamis where things go to shit. Essentially the anger Roarg still held manifested with his dark powers and took hold of dynamis and altered it to his liking; beastmen conquered everything and he's become this all-powerful ruler.

In the plot CSs when you first clear each zone it's all about him and the other expedition members resolving their conflicts so they can rest (or dream) in peace.

Dynamis is supposed to be kinda neutral I guess, but with Diabolos and all it's always portrayed as nightmarish.

[ronin sparthos]

dynamis is a dream world where people would no longer have to worry about anything because it could differ from reality. it is a place of comfort pulled over the eyes of those who would embrace it. truth being that those who remain in it are trapped in the dream, trapped in stasis for eternity. dynamis was however tainted by the power that the shadow lord held.. which led to it becoming kind of a not so nice place to be in.

Dynamis is ruled by Diabolos, and yes diabolos is "good", being a servant of altana. His methods (getting people to live in a dreamed up false reality) aren't exactly the most optimistic tho.

All of the terrestrials are more concerned with self-preservation than anything else. Phoenix seemed to be the optimist in the group with Diabolos and Bahamut being the pessimists and Fenrir and Carbuncle on the fence but even Phoenix required tons of human sacrifices to be brought back in only a fragmented form.

[Septimus]

All of the terrestrials are more concerned with self-preservation than anything else. Phoenix seemed to be the optimist in the group with Diabolos and Bahamut being the pessimists and Fenrir and Carbuncle on the fence but even Phoenix required tons of human sacrifices to be brought back in only a fragmented form.

I wouldn't say that that are more concerned with self-preservation, most of them (everyone except Bahamut) seem to be very fond of the human races. I am sure that self-preservation is a motivation, but I think that most of them would actually would help even if their lives weren't on the line as well.

Spoiler: show

Like we found out in Wings of the Goddess cutscenes that Carbuncle helped Karaha-Baruha to summon Fenrir because he wanted to help Windurst.

If I remember correctly, the Celestial avatars accused the Terrestrial avatars of being selfishly motivated, but I wouldn't trust them at all because they are giant dicks. Odin's careless meddling is primarily responsible for all of the destruction in the past 30 years all so he could find strong warriors so he can destroy more shit for Ragnarok, and he is the only Celestial avatar who has ever shown any regard for humans.

[Ophannus]

What exactly IS the Seed Crystal? Is it the Mothercrystal? It kind of randomly shows up as a the last boss of ACP without much explanation like FF1 Chaos.

[Ophannus]

Regarding Lightbringer/Gordius/Alexander

Spoiler: show

Also I don't think it was explained fully what the Gordeus is. I remember someone saying when it was found, another artifact was found alongside it during the Sandy missions. Sandoria took one artifact and the other was taken by the founder of Aht Urghan, though it was never stated in game, someone hypothesized it was Lightbringer, since the hilt of Lightbringer looks like Alzadaal tech and would make sense with the whole Gordius=Gordion Knot in real life, being Lightbringer is the sword that breaks the Gordion Knot in that myth. Trion mentions Lightbringer makes him feel like a God, so it must be tied to Alexander somehow. The orcs wanted to combine the sword with a warmachine to make some kind of death robot it seemed. That would also fit along with lightbringer being alzadaal technology or having something to do with alexander. I was disappointed at how little they touched on the Olduum civilization in TOAU they gave us barely anything about them and their technology. Nothing much about Astral Candescences, Gordius, Lightbringer, and all that fun stuff.

[Septimus]

What exactly IS the Seed Crystal? Is it the Mothercrystal? It kind of randomly shows up as a the last boss of ACP without much explanation like FF1 Chaos.

The Seed Crystal was a waste of a perfectly good expansion add-on and $10. We wanted a story about how Aldo escaped from Tavnazia and finishing with the reunion between him and his sister. Instead we got some shitty story with a crystal that just shows up, we fight it, and nothing of consequence happens because everyone was dreaming.

Seriously, look at this picture:

http://images.bluegartr.com/wiki/f/f...alline_Art.jpg

Isn't that epic? There's a young Aldo fleeing the ruin of Tavnazia with his sister's image burning in his memory. Who are these people in the background? Did they help Aldo escape? Did they teach him important lessons that would turn him into the man that he is today? Did they protect him from harm? We will never know because we got a terrible story about an evil crystal who tried to destroy the world but couldn't for some unspecified reason. We didn't even get a reunion between Aldo and Mathilde. How hard would it have been to add in an extra cutscene in Selbina and an extra line of text on Aldo and Mathilde? Obviously too hard for $10.

Mathilde was involved because it needed her to sing the Lay of the Immortal or some junk, but really, who it was or what it wanted is of no consequence whatsoever. It was just the product of a blatant cash-grab. (Yes, I am bitter about it still.)

Regarding Lightbringer/Gordius/Alexander

Spoiler: show

Also I don't think it was explained fully what the Gordeus is. I remember someone saying when it was found, another artifact was found alongside it during the Sandy missions. Sandoria took one artifact and the other was taken by the founder of Aht Urghan, though it was never stated in game, someone hypothesized it was Lightbringer, since the hilt of Lightbringer looks like Alzadaal tech and would make sense with the whole Gordius=Gordion Knot in real life, being Lightbringer is the sword that breaks the Gordion Knot in that myth. Trion mentions Lightbringer makes him feel like a God, so it must be tied to Alexander somehow. The orcs wanted to combine the sword with a warmachine to make some kind of death robot it seemed. That would also fit along with lightbringer being alzadaal technology or having something to do with alexander. I was disappointed at how little they touched on the Olduum civilization in TOAU they gave us barely anything about them and their technology. Nothing much about Astral Candescences, Gordius, Lightbringer, and all that fun stuff.

Spoiler: show

The Gordeus was the control center for Alexander. It was basically the brain that allowed the Alzadaal Undersea Ruins function as a body for Alexander. They couldn't get the new body for Alexander to move until it was added to it. (I can't remember if they said that the one in the Walahra Temple was a copy or if they just never explained how it was there and in Alexander.)