FFXI Plot-holes and unclear issues

**Apelila** · 2012-02-16 01:24

Derp, you might be right. It's worded very specifically for the Yagudo and in the plural (stones), and there's only one piece of magicite that gets shown, but its probably just be a translation error.

text of the CS (Magicite, Windurst path)

Ajido-Marujido: The towers are all damaged! How do you explain magic still being drained from the plains of Sarutabaruta?

Ajido-Marujido: What about you Yagudo? What are those things that you continue digging? Those stones...maybe they are the cause of all this?

Yagudo Avatar: Kahk-ka-ka...I commend you on your perceptiveness.

Yagudo Avatar: But the reason Sarutabaruta is becoming a wasteland has nothing to do with those stones.

**Septimus** · 2012-02-16 19:24

Originally Posted by Apelila

Derp, you might be right. It's worded very specifically for the Yagudo and in the plural (stones), and there's only one piece of magicite that gets shown, but its probably just be a translation error.

text of the CS (Magicite, Windurst path)

Ajido-Marujido wouldn't necessarily know that the Quadav and Orcs were digging up anything either since their bases were on different continent and didn't concern the drain of magic in Sarutabaruta. Also, in the Shadow Lord BC cutscene, there are 6 pillars of Magicite in the Throne Room, two from each beastmen stronghold. (The pillars were possibly made out of multiple shards of Magicite. We gave three shards of Magicite to Kam'lanaut that were then "stolen". Why else would Kam'lanaut to go through the pretense of having us get the Magicite shards then pretending that they were stolen unless they needed them to add to the pillars to awaken the Shadow Lord.)

**Sechs** · 2012-03-09 07:59

Originally Posted by Ferr

is that true¿? I thought Kato did only vanilla FFXI and Zilart, but CoP really seems to be made at the same time. Also I dont know who is credited for CoP storyline.

Aside from credits and stuff, it's pretty clear that's what really happened.
Despite CoP's storyline being a bit cloudy or vague in a few spots (more than one, as this discussion proves), the basic plot > RotZ > CoP flows almost perfectly.

The rest tries to fit in one way or another, sometimes it works good, most other times it doesnt, and in general I feel it's more us (the users) trying to make a sense of it other than the authors really caring THAT much for everything to perfectly work like a swiss clock.

**Sechs** · 2012-03-09 08:11

Originally Posted by Rocl

Yes. Promathia became Shinryu after he absorbed your essence, iirc. I don't have FFXI or Pebbles on this PC (not like the latter would work without the former) to double check, but I am fairly certain this is the case. I mean, you could argue Shinryu = Nag'molada since Promathia absorbed him, but it's definitely more Promathia, no?

I never really liked that part.
I mean Promathia is supposed to be supreme and allmighty, creator of Vana'diel with Altana, altough it's her who eventually repopulated it with her 5 tears etc. (or so the legend says)
Such a being shouldn't have the need to merge with a silly terrestrial avatar (half of it actually) who merged with a Kuluu prince who absorbed a fuckton of emptiness unto himself.
I mean, why?

Promathia is supposed to be above all of that, making him merge with something/someone else to become more powerful is like implicitly saying he wasn't powerful enough, and that kinda hurts his epicness imho.
We only beat Promathia in CoP because:
1) He's the bad guy and we're the heroes D:
2) Altana's blessings
3) Help from a lot of powerful friends working together
4) He was still weakened and not fully reawakened

Dunno, maybe it's just me but I didn't like the Prom absorbs Selth part.

**Sechs** · 2012-03-09 08:30

Originally Posted by Spira

Promathia always wanted to die because he was kinda meant for oblivion.. Altana didn't wanna let him cos she loved him so she was the one who destroyed paradise and gave birth to the 5 races harboring fragments of Promathia.

Yes but what I always wondered is when in time does the Zilart thing place.
I assume Zilarts existed in the physical vana'diel (post paradise destruction)?

Maybe they existed in paradise as well, in a slightly different form. Then Altana split Promathia's essence into 5 different races she created to populate a new world that appeared when she destroyed paradise splitting the mothercrystal in 5.
Then the Zilart were placed on the same planet, with no real memory of what/who they were before?

Does this make any sense?

**Septimus** · 2012-03-09 18:45

Originally Posted by Sechs

I never really liked that part.
I mean Promathia is supposed to be supreme and allmighty, creator of Vana'diel with Altana, altough it's her who eventually repopulated it with her 5 tears etc. (or so the legend says)
Such a being shouldn't have the need to merge with a silly terrestrial avatar (half of it actually) who merged with a Kuluu prince who absorbed a fuckton of emptiness unto himself.
I mean, why?

Promathia is supposed to be above all of that, making him merge with something/someone else to become more powerful is like implicitly saying he wasn't powerful enough, and that kinda hurts his epicness imho.
We only beat Promathia in CoP because:
1) He's the bad guy and we're the heroes D:
2) Altana's blessings
3) Help from a lot of powerful friends working together
4) He was still weakened and not fully reawakened

Dunno, maybe it's just me but I didn't like the Prom absorbs Selth part.

Promathia watning to absorbe Selh'teus does make sense. If you look at the cutscene before the Dawn fight, Promathia was interested in Selh'teus.

Spoiler: show

But he wasn't after Phoenix or Selh'teus, he wanted all of the nummy, nummy Emptiness that Selh'teus had absorbed.

As for why we won, but our counterparts on Abyssea lost; they did mention many times that we are more powerful than the people from Abyssea, maybe our counterparts were only level 70. But more seriously, I think it is probably a combination of the power of friendship and Altana's will. Although from a Dolyist's point of view, it was probably more like if the world ended then they wouldn't get subscription fees anymore.

Originally Posted by Sechs

Yes but what I always wondered is when in time does the Zilart thing place.
I assume Zilarts existed in the physical vana'diel (post paradise destruction)?

Maybe they existed in paradise as well, in a slightly different form. Then Altana split Promathia's essence into 5 different races she created to populate a new world that appeared when she destroyed paradise splitting the mothercrystal in 5.
Then the Zilart were placed on the same planet, with no real memory of what/who they were before?

Does this make any sense?

The timeline goes like this: Paradise -> Promathia dies -> Paraidse lose -> Zilart -> Meltdown -> the Five Races arise

Spoiler: show

The Zilart evolved into the Five Races of Altana because of the influecne of the 5 Mothercrystals.

**Sechs** · 2012-03-12 04:45

Originally Posted by Niiro

And how the Super Zilart Bros. apparently continue to govern Jeuno in death.

Tbh they handled stuff kinda good, up to a certain degree.
You never see the brothers after those cut-scenes, they only get mentioned.
It's a good plot device which can be seen in 2 ways
1) New players - the brothers are just away
2) Old players - they still cannot justify what happened to commoners, they use the excuse of the brothers being missing

Back in the days of CoP there even were a few cutscenes in jeuno where text changed according to your progress. I remember experiencing this because I was doing CoP missions with my static, they had already finished RotZ while I didn't, and the text changed slightly for us.
Doubt SE did this for a lot of quests, but at least they tried!

**Sechs** · 2012-03-12 05:20

Originally Posted by Septimus

The Zilart evolved into the Five Races of Altana because of the influecne of the 5 Mothercrystals.

I forgot that cutscene.
But can we say it's "real"? Or just another legend that's far from the truth?
I mean let's take again that timeline again

Paradise -> Promathia dies -> Paraidse lose -> Zilart -> Meltdown -> the Five Races arise

This is the same as I would write probably. But after a closer look:
1) Didn't Altana have to split the Mothercrystal (i.e. paradise lost and creation of Vana'diel) to keep Promathia from obliterating himself? And to do that she "bound" her essence splitting into the 5 races.
2) The 5 races have a part of Promathia inside, the Zilarts do not. So from this point of view it doesn't make sense that the Zilart evolved into 5 different races, does it?

Altough these are my only issues with it. Aside from these I think the evolved thing makes much more sense overall.

Also, I think I haven't seen the so-called goddess "Uggalepih" mentioned so far. Do we know anything other than what the legends says? That she was adhored by the kuluu, that she was jealous of Altana and that for that her people got cursed and become Tonberries?
And I also wonder, am I the only one who got disappointed by discovering "our" universe isn't the original one but just a different one Altana created because she wasn't happy with the first one etc?

I dunno, I'm not a fan of huge time-related plot devices, and even more parallel dimensions plot devices.
It just raises more questions than the ones it answers to, and only create issues making things more complicated than they oughta be.
Just like Altana for example. If she created this dimension it would lead us to think that she transcends parallel universes (just like Atomos), which would also lead us to think that there was only one mothercrystal and one paradise, yet so many different universes.
It may be just my limit, but I really don't like these solutions. I can accept it if we're talking about a temporary time-paradox, but when you start talking about permanently existing parallel universes, it just kinda turns me away instead of exciting me.

Sadly FFXI has been doomed by a low amount of subscribers, and by SE making the wrong business choices, deciding not to invest in FFXI enough, long enough, in the right way, at the right time, on the right platforms.
Too late to turn things back, but it's really a shame.

**Spira** · 2012-03-12 11:16

The Zilart didn't evolve into the 5 races..
I think its more like the 5 races were later evolutions in Vana'diel, because Zilart tainted by emptiness become Kuluu and nothing else really. I suppose it wouldnt be a stretch to say that Hume evolved from Zilart, but that really isnt the case.

The 5 races are formed in the image of people with a distinctly different form of emptiness, presumably because it comes from a different Mother Crystal. This is also the reason why the Ark Angels look so distinct.

As for Uggalepih, she is fake.

**Septimus** · 2012-03-12 16:18

Originally Posted by Sechs

I forgot that cutscene.
But can we say it's "real"? Or just another legend that's far from the truth?
I mean let's take again that timeline again

Paradise -> Promathia dies -> Paraidse lose -> Zilart -> Meltdown -> the Five Races arise

This is the same as I would write probably. But after a closer look:
1) Didn't Altana have to split the Mothercrystal (i.e. paradise lost and creation of Vana'diel) to keep Promathia from obliterating himself? And to do that she "bound" her essence splitting into the 5 races.
2) The 5 races have a part of Promathia inside, the Zilarts do not. So from this point of view it doesn't make sense that the Zilart evolved into 5 different races, does it?

Altough these are my only issues with it. Aside from these I think the evolved thing makes much more sense overall.

Also, I think I haven't seen the so-called goddess "Uggalepih" mentioned so far. Do we know anything other than what the legends says? That she was adhored by the kuluu, that she was jealous of Altana and that for that her people got cursed and become Tonberries?
And I also wonder, am I the only one who got disappointed by discovering "our" universe isn't the original one but just a different one Altana created because she wasn't happy with the first one etc?

I dunno, I'm not a fan of huge time-related plot devices, and even more parallel dimensions plot devices.
It just raises more questions than the ones it answers to, and only create issues making things more complicated than they oughta be.
Just like Altana for example. If she created this dimension it would lead us to think that she transcends parallel universes (just like Atomos), which would also lead us to think that there was only one mothercrystal and one paradise, yet so many different universes.
It may be just my limit, but I really don't like these solutions. I can accept it if we're talking about a temporary time-paradox, but when you start talking about permanently existing parallel universes, it just kinda turns me away instead of exciting me.

Sadly FFXI has been doomed by a low amount of subscribers, and by SE making the wrong business choices, deciding not to invest in FFXI enough, long enough, in the right way, at the right time, on the right platforms.
Too late to turn things back, but it's really a shame.

Originally Posted by Spira

The Zilart didn't evolve into the 5 races..
I think its more like the 5 races were later evolutions in Vana'diel, because Zilart tainted by emptiness become Kuluu and nothing else really. I suppose it wouldnt be a stretch to say that Hume evolved from Zilart, but that really isnt the case.

The 5 races are formed in the image of people with a distinctly different form of emptiness, presumably because it comes from a different Mother Crystal. This is also the reason why the Ark Angels look so distinct.

As for Uggalepih, she is fake.

The Illusory Image in the Chamber of Oracles cutscene is of Yve'noile, possibly the biggest source of information in the game that can be trusted as what actually happened without expecting it to be a legend.

Illusory Image: "A great explosion--the Meltdown--ended the Zilart's evil plan ten thousand years ago. Over the millennia, the power of the crystals has transformed the people of that era to the five races that exist today."

That is pretty clear, since there was not a third race (the Sacrificial Chamber cutscene Grav'iton states that the Kuluu that survived the Meltdown became the Tonberries), this leaves only the Zilart to have evolved into the 5 races.

In the Dawn cutscene, Selh'teus says this:

Selh'teus: "To insure the Twilight God's continued existence, Altana stole the energy of the mothercrystal to create the race of people."

The wording is important, he said "the race of people", not "the five races of people", or "the seven races of people". The Zilart came first, then the Kuluu were Zilart who were born without the Whisper of Souls. (Which could happen to any one, even the noble houses had Kuluu born into them like the Zilart King's daughter Esha'ntarl.)

Really, part of the problem is that CoP really mucked things up story-wise by introducing the Emptiness, Altana needed vessels to hold the Emptiness, but the Zilart supposedly didn't have the Emptiness. It is possible that the Zilart would all have eventually become Kuluu, but as this is just speculation. But Yve'noile's text is pretty clear about the Zilart becoming the five races, any confusion was because they didn't keep the story straight with CoP.

**Niiro** · 2012-03-12 17:22

You could look at it as Altana's creation myth of the 5 races being the XI equivalent of Adam & Eve with the dawnmaidens giving you the facts on what really happened.

Which is more interesting story-wise, rather than Altana being all wise and benevolent and shit she just happened upon the 5 races and used them for the emptiness and whatnot. Stories are so much more interesting when the gods aren't black/white good/evil and are just sorta coasting along without a plan. Altana only ever seems to do fuck all for us anyway, the PC and co. does shit and it's like "oh it was her will all along".

Bitch, please.

**Septimus** · 2012-03-12 17:42

Originally Posted by Niiro

You could look at it as Altana's creation myth of the 5 races being the XI equivalent of Adam & Eve with the dawnmaidens giving you the facts on what really happened.

Which is more interesting story-wise, rather than Altana being all wise and benevolent and shit she just happened upon the 5 races and used them for the emptiness and whatnot. Stories are so much more interesting when the gods aren't black/white good/evil and are just sorta coasting along without a plan. Altana only ever seems to do fuck all for us anyway, the PC and co. does shit and it's like "oh it was her will all along".

Bitch, please.

As I said before about Altana's non-action, why should she have to do anything when she has the player character to do everything for her? (Besides, if Altana intervened on all of the problems, there wouldn't be much of a game to play.)

**arus2001** · 2012-03-12 18:16

Maybe we are Altana?!

**TSFFXI** · 2012-03-12 19:05

Originally Posted by Septimus

Altana's non-action

Spoiler: show

**Apelila** · 2012-03-12 22:37

Maybe Altana's universe reset button only works once, or she can't reset the Universe because of Atomos (since she seems able to do fuck all about that), or she's ok with there being one reality where nothing went straight to hell so all the other alternate realities can DIAF.

**Aldoras** · 2012-03-13 03:55

Originally Posted by Septimus

In the Dawn cutscene, Selh'teus says this:

Selh'teus: "To insure the Twilight God's continued existence, Altana stole the energy of the mothercrystal to create the race of people."

The wording is important, he said "the race of people", not "the five races of people", or "the seven races of people". The Zilart came first, then the Kuluu were Zilart who were born without the Whisper of Souls. (Which could happen to any one, even the noble houses had Kuluu born into them like the Zilart King's daughter Esha'ntarl.)

So Altana stealing the light describes her splitting the original crystal? And with that light she created the Zilart? Doesn't that mean that the Zilart were created AFTER paradise was lost, and thus couldn't have lived in there with the gods?

And on another note, the Zilart who were emptiness-free were immortal right? But still new Zilart were born here and there - that society was bound to run into problems

**Fereydoon** · 2012-03-13 05:35

Originally Posted by Aldoras

So Altana stealing the light describes her splitting the original crystal? And with that light she created the Zilart? Doesn't that mean that the Zilart were created AFTER paradise was lost, and thus couldn't have lived in there with the gods?

And on another note, the Zilart who were emptiness-free were immortal right? But still new Zilart were born here and there - that society was bound to run into problems

The were immortal from natural death, but as evidenced by the Zilart Bros., could still be killed.

**Septimus** · 2012-03-13 16:02

Originally Posted by TSFFXI

Spoiler: show

But instead of sending the Cait Siths back 30 years ago to stop the Multinational Expedition which would have completely prevented the Crystal War, she sent them back 20 years to the Crystal War. I guess we could make an argument for "Fixed Points in Time" and "Timey-Wimey Balls" (although that is a whole different series) but all most all of the strife that has happened in this game has flowed from the Multinational Expedition. (Even the body for Alexander could not have been constructed without the events of CoP and Odin would not have been freed to start Ragnarok had the Shadowlord not risen.)

But I think you are correct, Altana's plan to deal with problems is generally cleave parties and empyrean weapon trials. And it makes sense, there wouldn't be much of a game if every problem just got Deus ex Machninaed away.

Originally Posted by Aldoras

So Altana stealing the light describes her splitting the original crystal? And with that light she created the Zilart? Doesn't that mean that the Zilart were created AFTER paradise was lost, and thus couldn't have lived in there with the gods?

And on another note, the Zilart who were emptiness-free were immortal right? But still new Zilart were born here and there - that society was bound to run into problems

The Zilart were emptiness free, but they still had the Chains of Promathia: Apathy, Cowardice, Envy, Arrogance, and Rage. That is why their society ran into issues.

**Ophannus** · 2012-04-08 18:07

Dude whoever localizes or writes the English script for any dialogue spoken by either Kupofried or Cait Sith is a fucking word smith/vocabulary wizard. Seriously half of these words showed up on my GRE and I found playing FFXI and reading dialogue more beneficial than memorizing words lists.

Countenance
Bombastic
Paroxysm
Prolix
Gramercy
Fractious
Betwixt
Recondite

All these fucking words in one cutscene. Either the person who makes the dialogue is a archaic word generator or he sits there with a victorian-era thesaurus and finds the most obscure synonyms he can find.

**Apelila** · 2012-04-08 21:03

Though he isn't credited here, I'm pretty sure you're talking about Alexander O. Smith. He's the person responsible for FF12's script being amazeballs. (Not to mention Vagrant Story and it's "Holy hell this is the same company that translated FF8" reaction it gave me)

And yes, I just gave adulation's to someone using a word like amazeballs. I feel no shame.

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