Job Adjustments

[kuronosan]

I simply can't bring myself to, just like you can't simply bring yourself to read every post made afterwards instead of a post made hours ago.

[Xanthe]

I simply can't bring myself to, just like you can't simply bring yourself to read every post made afterwards instead of a post made hours ago.

Oh I read them all, I just didn't find it necessary to quote every single person along the way. Just echoing the same sentiments as everyone else here with my own anecdote.

[Lordender]

lol @ domaru sams keeping up with ebody drk's. I went to bed with a big fucking smile across my face last night.

[Hawkhellfire]

Where were people like you when I played SAM? I wasn't even allowed to fight HNMs because SAMs were "gimp".

If SAMs were so great before, why did MNKs and WARs get thrown into these fights?

I have been SAM 75 for two years or more now and even I admit they are completely imbalanced. Stop trying to argue otherwise, this isn't a case of SAM simply being top of the DD ladder, that would be alright. This is a case of DOMARU SAMs being able to parse equal to DDs that actually invest time and effort into trying to be as good as possible.

Either which way, SE can see that SAM need a nerf and thats what they will get. About time.

Ugh, Domaru sams are the worst. Although I never saw SAM as being overpowered myself. I prefer meriting as my WAR over my SAM and have outparsed 9/10 SAM's I've partied with (granted most were lolDomaru sams) while using dual wield.

I don't think "nerfing" SAM is the way it should be. If anything increase the other jobs. Or at least give SAM something more viable then lower SC resistance (which all jobs benefit from).

[Francisco II]

Before:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...82x/merits.jpg

After: Although I forgot to change DRK and DRG... but w/e...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../merits2-1.jpg

[Aymee]

Please someone help me understand.

They are making more spells for DRK because it's an "attacker with magic" and are making more spells for RDM so they can be a more effective attacker? While I understand DRK doesnt really cast and RDM doesn't really melee they're bringing the two closer together for ...what reason, again? Because it looks like we're moving towards...

HEY THAT'S THE SAME FUCKING THING YOU IDIOTS.

Ish, by your logic, why does BLU exist? It already IS the same thing from how you seem to be looking at it. It's dead set in the middle with melee + insane physical dmg spells and some conventional magic. Yea, so we already found the middle. If you've defined each side (the 'original' DRK and RDM) and coalesced to a balance (BLU and unconventional mage tanking)... now sort through it to your desired niche.
The only thing BLU lacks is refresh, and I wouldn't be surprised if a self-refresh is coming. Wouldn't that potentially make RDM obsolete, actually? Very unlikely, but a natural fear for someone who has put a lot of time into RDM.

Honestly, I don't see why it matters and why your reaction is so--er... harsh. Since our server is redneck enough to still use mages for all things HNM, any extra rdm power just gives you stronger tanks! Thus this is a good adjustment, yes? Who cares of things get more similar if the bottom line is helped.
I suppose you see no need to adjust SAM since they're worthless for hnm anyway in the view of the JPN-dominated HNMLS scene on Garuda. So yes. Throw a fit when your niche looks threatened, but entirely not care what the rest of the world is going through. Gogogadgetmagefixation!

SE is really obviously setting up general job types on a spectrum now. Play either end, or play a mix. Putz with subs for variety and the niche you want to play in.

DRK -- BLU -- RDM ...melee with MP, 90% DD to a 25-75% spread to whateverRDMgets. Variety of subs available on all.
NIN -- WAR -- PLD ...blink[/eva] tank to blood/DD/counter to pure MP tricks. All tanks. Maybe put in MNK with war, depending on changes.
BRD -- COR -- Dancer ...Support with no melee or dmg dealt, a few bonus slugshots, and support that's 100% melee.
WHM -- Scholar -- BLM ...Healer, interesting solution to blend some of both, nuker.
RNG -- SAM -- DRG ...Fully ranged and mobile to an active moving melee to pure spear-in-the-face.
SMN -- PUP -- BST ...Apparently what have been deemed the solo jobs. Pure magic pet to a custom pet to a physical beast pet.

...thf is just doomed, regardless. For the love of god, help thf.
...mnk may never be much changed from an /autoattack, /autotarget on, /assist <tank> "afk" job for the casual player. Which is a shame really.

Note how if you pick any of the 3 in each of the 6 classes, you end up with what could certainly be a viable 'oldschool' PT. Throw in THF and MNK instead of SMN and BST (mostly solo jobs) and you get a good'ol healer+support+some kind of nuking+tank+2DD setup.

Sure, jobs can fit into slots on a different spectrum. Like... RNG DRK DRG SAM WAR are simply big weapon big numbers jobs until you get bored and figure out what they can truly do. You can even look farther into the grid and see how if you go from the 'right' of one group and then to the 'left' of the next, you get a somewhat unique experience. RDM to NIN to make it a tank no one expected. Dancer to WHM to learn how to dedicated heal and use MP, or vice-versa with a career WHM who wants to melee some. BLM and RNG might seem to be total opposites, but they're the ranged attack jobs.
...Great, now I'm going to sit around thinking about how I could arrange that so the job opportunity/opposite between classes match better.

Actually. That covers every job, and the logical progression of all 6 of those spectrums can be defended. Which takes me to your manthra tantrum--

WHAT DIRECTLY THE FUCK DO YOU DO IN JAPAN, ANYWAY?

Looks to me like someone has put a lot of time into thinking about all 20 jobs, what their assumed role is, what their expanded roles might be, slowly changed some jobs over time, and are adding their next 'view' of things. I wouldn't be at all surprised if at some point the development team actually sat down and tried to make a chart like what I put above.

Lastly, it's obviously hard to balance out so many job. People find new tricks to existing things, and they get fixed. New content gets added and you have to work backwards, etc.. ToAU jobs they had to be very careful with since they needed to find a way to fit in the face of people finding all types of 'unexpected' uses to the other jobs. 2 more jobs now--both of which look very useful and likely a challenge to master--and SE has specifically said they're trying to fill in gaps. One very simple way to make balancing out different things is to add common characteristics and traits, etc. Instead of taking 20 jobs and start from scratch, starting with 6 classifications just made things exponentially less challenging. Start at the core of each of the 6, then diverge to both ends outward. 3 jobs in each grouping. 18 jobs + a legion of Galka MNKs mine workers + 50000 THFs ready to /wrists.

I don't know what everyone in Japan does, but seeing this unfold right now with the 2 new jobs fitting 2 really important gaps in the 3x6 grid makes me think at least one person is thinking about it.
After all, this XI is serious business. Perhaps the developers are serious for once?
((Mind you, I highly doubt this all is going to end up being revolutionary, but there's potential there. No true kudos to the development team until we can toy around with this all.))

[Infini]

Only thing id be wondering is if they make WHM sleep based on Divine Magic Why dont they add Banish IV Banishga III and Holy II. WHM gets 269 Divine Magic yet its top tier Nukes arent higher than III (Hell mob WHMs get Banishga III ffs and yet players dont -.-) If theyre adding new spells then at least they should add those spells as well even tho they aint powerful exactly they could do a good 600ish Damage which would be nice for a WHM soloing or wanting to support on Magic Bursts.

[Aymee]

Before: [null pic placeholder]

After: [null pic placeholder]

I'll spare readers from looking at the graphs again. Hey guys! 3 posts up ^^ ^^ ^^

In all my pondering how to 'rate' jobs for certain functions, somehow I never thought up this. This is so stupidly simple it's nearly infallible. Could easily be repeated for sky, sea, kings, anything. I do have one suggestion that would refine things into something a lot clearer. Don't mark the ABSOLUTE max and min of a job. Knowing that people decked with everything are presumably the high end... well I don't know how theoretically bad someone might be in comparison. Especially for the jobs lower down, there's a wider spread. Oh, and I'd drag the bottom of the BLU bar way lower than that. ~10% of BLUs actually know how strong they are in merit and most are... no.

Solution: Take 2 standard deviations in both directions of the middle. If you don't know what a standard deviation is, this is basically a way to disclude extreme values (high and low) as outliers. 2 deviations chops off the 5% of the highest and lowest. This could have a significant impact on how it looks... chopping off the very top of WAR makes it look less invulnerable, chopping off the bottom of MNK, etc. THF and BLU in particular would be hard to adjust, since there are very very few amazing ones to merit with but tons and ton of absolutely godawful ones that shame the job.

Example: Let's work off the first graph. I consider myself very accomplished as a WAR/SAM. I'm not going be in the super 5% on top, but I'd like to think my WAR would be on the higher 20% or so the bar. My dot go up around where the 'war' text is. Say I have a McRidaberk psychopath WAR (with merits/skill to back it up--just a ridill don't make you top 5%) in the PT who's making us all look stupid. He'd be near the tip-top of the WAR bar, where we make his dot. Also, I like to merit with a DRG friend obsessed with DRG and decked with about everything but a relic. Her dot would be near the very top of the DRG bar.

Let's look at likely results from that PT. In order of mention, I can imagine it parsing 36/32/32ish. Real numbers aren't important-- the key being the mildly-meritted McRidaberk player has an advantage I can't possibly make up for since I've essentially maxed my potential. The DRG has just about matched me swing-for-swing, however (in some PTs depending on sub/food/support she'll mop the floor with me, too)... that puts her in the same position as I.
Clearly the McRidaberk WAR is an outlier, to outdmg fairly decisively 2 people going all-out (one also being a WAR, mind you). Justification of it being an outlier is the dominance over two other people who are career in those jobs, place high on the bars of their jobs and could easily parse highest in any average merit PT.
My DRG friend would be an outlier, as well. Justification: Even if my dot was in the middle of the WAR line, I'd be way way higher on the chart than even the top DRG. She's like... a super-mega-outlier, since she'd require the line being moved substantially higher.

Now the 2nd graph. From what I'm looking at, I think what the goal is to see SAM in a range similar of MNK or NIN by dropping it down, and pulling up DRG and DRK into the area below that. SAM as-is, even the biggest idiot can trump all but the best of everything else so long as they have a hagun, know what hasso is, and can manage to create a SA-Gekko macro. Let's propose what a 3rd graph would look like, using the idea of outliers and the fallacy in the scaling we toyed with.

WAR: Drag the bottom down to just above the axis. Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to totally screw up being WAR in a merit PT.
MNK: Looks good. Outliers would only snip a tiny bit off the top (Galka BB MNKs) and bottom (Taru MNKs who don't know what destroyers are) since the median player skill on those would be pretty close to the middle.
NIN: Looks good. I'd say lower the bottom, but it would automatically correct itself from the outlier cutting.
RNG: Have it straddle the x-axis, but the lengths look good. Merit PTs are not RNG-friendly. I guess we'll see how the changes go.
BLU: The top is perfect. People totally underestimate BLUs power in meritting. Unfortunately, the 'average' BLU has no idea what their potential is... the bottom needs to be substantially brought down. I mean as low as PUP stuff.
THF: Lower the peak. Axing outliers is probably going to cut out a large chunk of the top of the THF bar, sadly... But we all know a truly gifted thf that can keep up and match dmg numbers of other melee in merit is a VERY rare thing. After those outliers, the average skill on that bar is going to be on the lower end of what's already there.
DRK: Lower the peak a little. I'll assume the dead bottom is reserved for axe/kraken DRKs. Please lower it further.
SAM: In theory, it would look lovely if it were the same as the WAR bar... a little lower peak maybe. Drag out the very bottom to below the axis. Sound fair to everyone?
BST: I have no idea. I don't merit with BSTs much, but they've got it rough. Since you're likely adding pet to dmg, that line looks pretty fair... maybe lower top.
DRG: Substantial movement up. Axe the bottom third of the low end. Raise max to a bit above the old BST max. This is why we're ignoring outliers! DRG probably has a bigger spread of skill in players than anything else. We have my friend and others that go even farther than she that can almost come up to Mr McRidaberk (near the top of the whole graph), but there are some that are in merit PT with their af1 set and sub nin for some unknown reason. Quite literally, DRG would span the entire page from about MNK max to dead floor if you didn't exclude outliers.
PUP: Have not had a PUP in a merit PT ever. So can't give an opinion.

[Lucavi]

When will people level a class based on fun factor instead of big number complex :'(

When their peers stop loling the job. Also, your chart must be based on elitist perception if that's the best you can do to show a dragoon's max potential with the absolute best in gear. I hope this isn't an instance of your ignorance showing.

[SeraphusRagnarok]

What the hell kind of LS were you in >_>
Back in the day SAM/THF DD ONLY come with your Trick Attack and Gekko macros. You'd have to use Meditate because you know you don't actually HIT the HNMs, WARs could come provided they had GAxe and /SAM and MNKs were Chi Blasting. At least, that's how I remember the good ol' days.

And DRGs sat outside /SAM with their 225 sword skill charging 300% Spirits Within every 15 minutes.

[Jeryhn]

That pic is like 3 years old when all that "information" was basically true. Don't get butthurt.

[Eratosthenes]

Fixing the 2h-patch to me shouldn't be about which jobs are broken now vs. before, but rather that their base performance is unbalanced vs. a 1h weapon user's. What I mean by this is that a 2-hander with shitty gear will perform too well relative to a 1-hander with excellent gear.

[Breemer]

DRK with an absorb buff that works like THFs aura steal be hot.

*fap fap fap* that would own so hard

[Lucavi]

Fixing the 2h-patch to me shouldn't be about which jobs are broken now vs. before, but rather that their base performance is unbalanced vs. a 1h weapon user's.

The problem with that is that it takes too much work on SE's part. They'd have to redesign the way the formula was actually calculated -- all they had to do here was raise a few values: they didn't have to start from scratch, which is essentially what they'd need to do to truly balance 1 handed vs. 2handed.

I tell you though; a good start would be to actually put some fucking decent attributes on 2-handed weapons. Juggy still stands alone as the most retarded attribute set on a 1-handed item. I haven't seen anything on a 2-handed weapon (outside of barbarian's scythe) that compares.

And DRGs sat outside /SAM with their 225 sword skill charging 300% Spirits Within every 15 minutes.

Ahh.. memories.

[Kenai]

That pic is like 3 years old when all that "information" was basically true. Don't get butthurt.

BLU and PUP aren't 3 years old. That pic is from...about the time tier 1 merits where released for the ToAU jobs.

And Toth, as a fellow PUP, I can't really agree to saying a PUP is (on average) capable of outdamaging a WAR in a merit party. In certain situations, or against a crappy pickup guy, I have no problem, and damage isn't BAD, per se, but it's just not as good, realistically. I blame this, and the job's other problems, mostly on 3 factors:

1. PUP's gear selection blatently sucks. Salvage gear is effin hard to get, and P. gear, our next best set, is mediocre in the grand scheme of melee gear. I like the Salvage gear, but having nothing in the meantime, and being put on tons of magey gear, is very crappy on SE's part. Even the other pet jobs, while still being somewhat unaccepted, have at least gotten reasonably obtainable gear made just for them, not to metion AFv2. We have some mediocre Hades Santi, the nearly impossible for anyone to realistically obtain Animator +1 (that probably sucks anyway), and the Salvage gear that we have to compete for. Seriously, wtf?

2. We just don't do anything special. None of our puppet's abilities or attachments are groudbreakingly powerful. Some are really nice, but nothing necessary, or even "notable" by another person.

3. The lack of HNM drops. Why would most Pups even want to try to be better at fighting HNMs when someone who actually liked the job had almost no reason to try? It's not like a PUP would get anything outside of Salvage gear-wise. Also, most other jobs either have cut-and-dry fuctionality or impressive spike damage/mob disabling abilities. PUP has neither, and the few places it does shine are ignored, because they aren't "important" enough.

The new WSes should definitely help a lot (we can prolly make Light and Dark now) but still...being denied a lot of basic things other jobs have is crappy. I have NEVER been a big fan of the mindless sheep bandwagon mentality, but PUP really does need it's own claim-to-fame powerful endgame abilities to be truly considered "acceptable". A single attachment could do that, mind you, but SE has to give it to us. I don't really care what some random in-game or forum noob thinks, but ignoring legitamite/irritating job flaws especially with new jobs on the horizon to take focus off them, is a bad idea. The fact that they still aren't lowering the Activate timer also depresses me...

[Pun]

Repose pic (sorry if anyone already posted it)

http://ff11creatersvoice.cocolog-nif...17/photo_6.jpg


I didn't read through all 8 pages (working lol), but with Accomplice, does it let you transfer the enmity gained through the ability via Trick Attack / SATA? I can just imagine THFs ripping the enmity off of mages and planting it on the tank instead.

[Zarath]

I doubt it, TA only transfer the DMG enmity generated when TA was used, and not any enmity the THF already has.

[Aymee]

The new WSes should definitely help a lot (we can prolly make Light and Dark now) but still...being denied a lot of basic things other jobs have is crappy. I have NEVER been a big fan of the mindless sheep bandwagon mentality, but PUP really does need it's own claim-to-fame powerful endgame abilities to be truly considered "acceptable". A single attachment could do that, mind you, but SE has to give it to us. I don't really care what some random in-game or forum noob thinks, but ignoring legitamite/irritating job flaws especially with new jobs on the horizon to take focus off them, is a bad idea. The fact that they still aren't lowering the Activate timer also depresses me...

...I'll assume since you do salvage and have p. assault armor set that you do normal assaults and not Nyzul. ...Unfortunately, it's probably about 50/50 now on whether these will be related to the new WS (whereas conjecture before--the development team has said a little). So add #4 in advance... Salvage gear or Nyzul gear/weapon and basically impossible to do both at once. Both are going to take a ridiculous amount of time... and yes everyone has the same anger about assault tags, but what other job would be so insanely dependent on stuff from both at once? PUP wins.

Adding because of new post: Yar repose pic was posted already. But it wasn't until this time that I remembered how stupid Orcs look with polearms (or any weapon, really). Based on their physique, can't we just have nothing but MNK-type orcs? That would reinforce a good 'stomp-kill' view of them, as they're not all that intelligent. They look as awkward as a taru holding a scythe. Tarus have no knees, Orcs have no elbows.

[test123]

if it's not too late, ask about their plans for DRK elemental spells. This has bother'd me for the longest time. If they are like "wut" explain to them it's useless and a waste of a B skill for DRK to have.

Further suggest removing/reduce MP cost(maybe use HP instead), 50% cast time reduction.

edit: for pvp purposes -ga spells is often used to remove shadows
PLD's Diaga Spell cost: 12 MP
DRK's Poisonga Spell cost: 44 MP

Suggest reducing MP cost of poisonga to 12 MP.

[terraflarex]

Velocity shot... long overdue, honestly.