Breaking the Tanking mechanics - once again

[Lyramion]

Thinking about the -3600VE/min decay rate atm.


As it is now Enmity gear doesnt seem to do much since we mostly play with CE - just using VE as occasional spike hate. if we seriously start to toy with VE enmity gear could provide some real help to "close the circle" between hogging VE and still do your Utsusemi and whatever it takes to stay alive.


Looking at RDM/NIN or NIN/RDM:

Blind has 10 second recast without Haste and Fastcast and gives you 640 VE. Lets say you are rather busy and get to cast it 4 times per minute. That already be 2560 VE. Now you only have to use 4x Single target Barspell to make up the rest of the decay. Taking this wild but possible example that all is 44MP/Minute you need to stop the decay. Anything above will "permanently" rise your VE as long as you keep the base cycle up.

Of course I would go for getting CE up first with Dispel spam. After going into VE crazy mode and build up that.



The real problem I see here is Co-Tanking. You now might be the Overlord of all Enmity but your Co-tank will have serious trouble of sharing hate with you. Imagine you are "1 minute" 3600 VE ahead of your CO NIN/DRK. He would need to activate Souleater, Last Resort and then Stun once to just have chance.



EDIT Ignore this because DRK doesnt get blind:

Lets look into NIN/DRK:

Lets also assume your NIN/DRK now has a clue about VE. He can first up his CE with Stuns, Aspire and Sleep (if he allowed to). NIN/DRK with Haste gear and good support easily gets off 2 Stuns per minute for 2560 VE. Now that leaves you only with 2 Blinds left to cast to stop the decay.

[Kaeko]

Easiest way to close the gap between 2 tanks is curing. Cures apparently provide a nice chunk of VE, we just don't know exactly how much. Also, many mobs are really solo-tankable due to how overpowered Slow II + Elegy can be.

We haven't tested this yet, but it looks like nothing lowers VE other than that decay rate. Cannot prove this until we get into damage taken formulas, but I am leaning towards this. This is the only explanation I can give as to why PLD/WAR has any chance of working - it focuses on VE (which I don't think goes down outside of natural decay), so it can take a pounding yet still keep hate.

[Amastacia]

Tried NIN/RDM on Ultima a week ago, and it failed miserably.

Started off (foolishly) trying to build a mix of CE and VE with Dispel, Sleep, Blind, etc. and later in the fight (maybe at 40%) started spamming the hell out of Barspells, and could not get Ultima to turn and face me until about 20% (and it took an Equalizer hitting the other tank, a NIN/DRK, for me to end up on top of the hate list), and even then it would twitch my way, maybe swing once, then go right back to the other NIN. Perhaps if I'd been spamming Barspells sooner, I would have had more luck.

Maybe some people will love the combo, I'll stick to NIN/DRK. While NIN/RDM might, on paper, be able to generate more hate, it fails pretty hard in the utility department. Given a ~130 MP pool there isn't exactly a lot of opportunity for spiking hate in emergencies a la Souleater, and I'll trade a little bit of hate generation for a little peace of mind. Plus, being able to Stun is pretty damn nice in and of itself.

I think it's cool as hell that there's so many jobs that could theoretically tank effectively, but frankly most contemporary tanks are capable of holding pretty much rock-solid hate so long as other people play a little smart, so I'd assert that the utility vs. raw hate generation argument will become increasingly important. I'm sure there will be situations where utility will be more critical, and others where simply making an unreal amount of hate will carry the fight.

[BerenTebogo]

Oh the horror!

Won't somebody PLEASE think of the M. Feet!

[Kaeko]

About your NIN/RDM story on Ultima.

Everything is situational (how often do people say this?). Proto-Ultima has absolutely pitiful resistance to stun and even on /DRK, it's going to stay for a good 3-4 seconds sometimes. Knowing this, and the fact that it hits like a truck and has horrible TP moves, safety is something you have to look more into when considering a strategy for this fight - not hate generation.

Our group was the one a lot of others base their lower man fights on (the 7 man Ultima using a single NIN/DRK tank). Even now, Ultima is considered one of the harder mobs to tank, and many groups use 2-3 tanks to be safe. If you're preparing to fight something so dangerous, safety is definitely a bigger concern; knowing that you can stun it so easily, that's why we eventually went with NIN/DRK as the tank to solo-tank this mob for us. This was knowing that PLD and RDM have significantly better MDB.

No tank will be the best in all situations I think. If this was ever true, the game would need balancing. I can certainly see unpopularized tanking styles performing better than the current major 3 styles right now on certain endgame fights. Ultima probably wouldn't be one of them though.

[Kaeko]

Lets look into NIN/DRK:

Lets also assume your NIN/DRK now has a clue about VE. He can first up his CE with Stuns, Aspire and Sleep (if he allowed to). NIN/DRK with Haste gear and good support easily gets off 2 Stuns per minute for 2560 VE. Now that leaves you only with 2 Blinds left to cast to stop the decay.

I'd just like to point out that there is a common misconception that DRK gets Blind - it's actually a BLM and RDM spell only.

I believe the usual hate rotation for a NIN/DRK - Stun, Bind, Sleep, Kurayami/Hojo - actually does generate enough hate to overtake the 3600 VE/min decay rate. If it can't quite on it's own, I'm sure you could with + enmity gear NIN has access to. Having Blind would help a lot though

[Lyramion]

True true my bad. Played NIN/DRK for so long and tought I just had sorted my blind spell somewhere hidden


Any tests on BIND yet?

[Kaeko]

Need to test on something that fully resists Bind. We're thinking low lvl fire elemental. Weird things happen when it lands then wears off though so I couldn't tell you right now.

[eva00r]

BLU/NIN can break 3600VE decay rate with in 5 seconds. Assuming you have +20 enmity gear, spamming Temporal Shift, Jettatura, Actinic Burst gives 3888VE, Diamonhide for 6 people also gives 2160 VE and stoneskin but with pretty long cast time. However, the best thing is Diffusion + Exuviation gives 4608VE - that can be use once every 15-20 mins.

[Kaeko]

BLU/NIN can break 3600VE decay rate with in 5 seconds. Assuming you have +20 enmity gear, spamming Temporal Shift, Jettatura, Actinic Burst gives 3888VE, Diamonhide for 6 people also gives 2160 VE and stoneskin but with pretty long cast time. However, the best thing is Diffusion + Exuviation gives 4608VE - that can be use once every 15-20 mins.

Everything you just said either has huge MP limitations or can only be used every 15ish minutes

That's really what holds BLU back on this... everything they have just looks horribly inefficient MP wise

[Ashael]

Easiest way to close the gap between 2 tanks is curing. Cures apparently provide a nice chunk of VE, we just don't know exactly how much.

Purely anecdotal and of little scientific relevance... but I don't think Cures are going to prove MP efficient for sustained, lower man fights. They're just too expensive to keep VE capped.

I co-tank our JoLs as RDM/NIN with an extremely well-geared and well-played NIN/DRK.
This past Thursday I used the understanding I'd gained from y'all's great testing.
Normally I have some difficulties maintaining good hate in relation to the NIN. I see now that I was focusing on too much CE, and using Cures to spike.
This Thursday, I abandoned Cures, except post Convert. Previously I would roll Bind, Dispel, Blind, Para, Sleep 1 and 2 and a self inflicted Cure in varying routines. Last Thursday I ramped up to CE cap using normal methods, and then at the limit, just cycled Blind and Poison, with a Dispel whenever I lost a shadow. After an -aga, Sleep and Sleep2 and Bind were spiked for a total of 6 spells. Poison is just a ridiculously cheap, effective hate tool that I never would have even considered.

As stated, previously, I'd struggle for hate and wasn't terribly efficient. I was enough to keep most everyone safe, but it wasn't my ideal hate level of having JoL spinning about every time one of us completed a cast.
Last Thursday, we achieved my ideal and held ridiculous hate, causing JoL an epileptic fit with his head bobbing. We reduced our time to kill by half and had only one overzealous SAM bite the dust due to constant JA spam, and damage spiking. The NIN/DRK was also abusing several lessons derived from y'all's testing.

Normally using Cures I require devotion to maintain enough MP thru convert cycles. With 6-9 MP cost spell spam spiked with Dispels and Sleeps... I was bottomless. And it was just impressively fun.
I was a PLD first, but I just don't see how PLDs are able to maintain the ridiculous level of hate capable with spam tanks like NIN/DRK and RDM/NIN. I've used PLD on Ouryu, Bahamut and it's just not as insane over the long haul. I always start having MP issues around 25-30 minutes into a fight, trying to constantly do something, anything to keep active. Here's hoping Repose is given to PLDs as well and costs 9 MP;p

With the Cure testing, are y'all using self inflicted Cures, or do y'all intend to abuse Convert to test the varying percentages, and do you think it will scale with level, or merely be related to Cure Level and HP recovered?

Probably not much relevance in my story, but I'm a testimonial to Kaeko™ powered tanking

[Mojo]

My friend(Sisco) & I just tested Bind. 1 CE 640 VE.

[Kaeko]

Was this on a resistant mob?

I know weird things happen after the "bind" effect wears off. I went ahead and added the info and you guys though. I suspect the Bind cast itself is like any normal action, and the "Effect of Bind wears off" effect has some type of CE/VE loss seperate.

I'm also curious as to what your NIN/DRK partner used for his VE? Stun Bind Poison?

[Mojo]

Yes, it was. We choose Yagudo's Elementals(level 5). We killed them until it summoned a fire based elemental. Also, Dispel is 320 VE and Sleep 240 VE.

[Kaeko]

Yes, it was. We choose Yagudo's Elementals(level 5). We killed them until it summoned a fire based elemental. Also, Dispel is 320 VE and Sleep 240 VE.

Added. Also, now that the Bind CE/VE is known, it may be possible tell what the enmity loss of the effect wearing is. 640 VE means it should wear in about 11 seconds, fast enough to have it fully wear before bind actually wears. From there it's easy to set up a test...

3rd player pulls a mob
2 main players cast Dispel (P1=320CE,P2=320CE)
Player 1 casts Cure 1 for 0HP (P1=321CE,P2=320CE)
Player 2 casts Bind (P1=321CE,P2=321CE)
Wait for VE to wear in ~11 seconds
Bind Effect wears ~20-30ish seconds (P1=321CE,P2=321-X CE)

Supposedly the bind effect wears and decreases CE by X CE.

Player 2 can Cure 1 for 0HP until enmity is balanced.

Also, it's interesting to note that Bind and Blind give the exact same CE/VE. Blind is a superior spell for hate it looks like now though because of much better recast time, same cast time, and better MP cost by 3MP. Both look really good though if casting in succession.

[Mojo]

If you dont get around to it maybe my friend and I will, although we're tired and are going to stop for tonight. Gravity appears to be 80 VE. I'll post some stuff about my experience with NIN/RDM later too(I've been using it for some time now and have a decent amount of experience).

[Ashael]

I'm also curious as to what your NIN/DRK partner used for his VE? Stun Bind Poison?

I'll ask him to verify his hate routine later, but I know he rolled Stun, Bind, Poison, and I believe Aspir, Sleep and 1 or 2 NIN spells. Abused SE and LR when available.

[Blight]

dumbest fucking conversation ever.... right next to RDM/NIN tanking anything of signifigance... haste your ass right back to the mage groups and start refreshing

[Stanislaw]

dumbest fucking conversation ever.... right next to RDM/NIN tanking anything of signifigance... haste your ass right back to the mage groups and start refreshing

Did you even read the thread? In detail?

Seriously.

Ignoring this guy, I'd like to congratulate you all on a job well done. This'll help me tons.

[Lyramion]

What a Troll Where is the Alla Card when you need it?