Breaking the Tanking mechanics - once again

[Lordwafik]

It's called experimentation. If nobody experiments, then nothing progresses.

Case point a : All the PLD in the LS are asleep for some reason, Tiamat pops and your HNMLS gathers but has not a single real tank job because they actually sleep at 4AM. Your white mages don't sleep at a regular time slot, and you have 5 of them, and a whole bunch of DDs aswell. What do you do?

Let the other LS take your HNM, or, due to the new found knowledge, you go out and do something with it and actually succeed ?

Nobody's knocking your PLD and saying they're replacing them, SE loves their PLDs, it's showing that you can now situationally do something where as in the past you had to stop and wait.

edit: this will be my last post, i've been told to stop posting or i get banned because apperently having a difference of opinion is against the boards TOS

Difference of opinion or crybaby attitude? Big difference between them.

[Lyramion]

Wafik totally stole the post out of my head.

[Kaeko]

I actually thought that post was a troll post, so I ignored it - I'll try responding now that I realize it was actually meant to be serious.

Certain situations call for certain job strengths. There is no 1 tank or tanking style which is superior in every single situation - as I said previously, if this were true, the game would require balancing. PLD/NIN is not the end-all be all tank in this game. My LS, for example, has 2 Aegis PLDs that we rarely use in leiu of other tanking types like NIN/DRK and RDM/NIN. I don't want to play epenis war with some other LS on another server, but let's just say we're not hurting for those PLDs, nor do we think using them would enhance our play.

Despite the fact we do not use PLD due to preference, I understand how good PLD can be in certain situations. For instance, when we try to beat other LSs to Khimaria, we get owned by other LSs that have an Aegis PLD camped out since he can solo hold it for about 10+ minutes - a NIN or RDM would have a hard time doing that. Likewise, there are situations where using a PLD is not optimal (though it would be well above acceptable still) - for example, attempting a low man Ultima solo-tank attempt.

I personally started this testing out of curiousity - not to prove a certain tanking style worked. I wouldn't have thought barspells were useful as tanking spells. The info is simply available now, and people can use their own creativity to figure new things out. I respect those kinds of people. There is a fine line between looking like a n00b and looking like a genius when you try something new - if it works, you're a genius, if it fails, you're an idiot. But when something actually does work, trends are set and new strategies are popularized.

You say PLD/NIN isn't broke so there is no need to fix it. The concept of what is acceptable is different for different people and LSs. PLD/NIN as it is currently played now, if you want to get truly nitpicky, does have its flaws. I think most may find that acceptable, so they wonder why anyone would bother trying to make a "better" style. From what I've seen on just the preliminary data, there are great improvements that can be made potentially - namely, the idea of reaching "perfect hate" - the cap set by the game, not player limitations.

As far as this testing just "breaking down what people already know", I don't know about you, but I'm not a genius, so if someone had asked me how Enmity worked a month ago, I would have been about 95% wrong. Maybe you knew about the dual hate system, where exactly the 2 cap, to focus on VE after reaching CE cap, that Sentinel caps your Enmity and makes +enmity gear useless, etc. but I sure didn't. I guess your tanks must have just been the most amazing thing ever - I know the ones I see can't compete with that type of knowledge - as you said you must be jaded by that.

All I know is anything you do in this game that is "outside the box" is considered n00bish until it actually works. After that, the ones that laughed at it eventually relent. That's must my 2 cents on this - I guess it's moot since the poster says he won't reply back anymore.

[Stanislaw]

The whole point of this thread is to show how Enmity works. Just because I read this thread doesn't mean I'm going to bust out and buy tanking gear for my WHM. Instead I will use this knowledge to further fine-tune my WHM and my other jobs so I won't be pulling as much hate off my tanks and vice versa. It works both ways.

For that, Kaeko, I thank you. But it seems some people just don't understand or appreciate the effort of what you've done for all of us.

[Blight]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how enmity works... all you're doing is making common sense, common knowledge.

[Lyramion]

The thing is basically simple of a WHM/NIN standpoint. If there is need to tank I can do it - and if I do it I want to do it as good as I can. If there is no need.... what gives... some simple gear swaps and you can do the job of a support role.

This kind of being a "jack of all traits" especially shines when there are HNM pops you need to rush to - without knowing who and what jobs will arrive and when.

[Kaeko]

I guess you really are a genius because based on what has come out in the last 2 weeks, enmity is not all that intuitive - in fact, it's one of the most convoluted things I've ever heard of in this game.

If it's common sense to you, you're the next Einstein. This stuff took me and Ashira a lot of thought and planning just to understand what the hell was going on, let alone to quantify it and prove it through testing.

I would also bet there isn't a single BRD anywhere that knew what Dirge and Sirvente did, let alone that Sirvente was bugged.

[Stanislaw]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how enmity works... all you're doing is making common sense, common knowledge.

Sigh.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

Did you know how much units of hate you get for ALL of these actions?

Didn't think so.

All we knew before were simply 'guesses'. Now we have precise numbers. Why can't you understand the significance of what this means?

[Ohemgee]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how enmity works... all you're doing is making common sense, common knowledge.

Now you're just trying to defend yourself because you've been shot down and corrected. But don't troll this, you might get banned

It isn't UNCOMMON for a WHM to draw hate. I could of told you WHM tanking wasn't so absurd in February when I duo tanked Shiki with a THF (Hex). Regardless of him out damaging me (I was meleeing!), I ended up tanking it without doing much outside of enfeebles, flash, and cures. Not saying its a great example, but it still opens up a realm of experiments. Hell BLU tanking isn't all that absurd.

Edit: WHM's can reach around the haste gear cap (cap with HQ bless but lol @ that).

[Lordwafik]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how enmity works... all you're doing is making common sense, common knowledge.

Water boils . Boiling water is hot.

That is common knowledge.

However what isn't common knowledge is water boils at 100 degrees celcius, if the water is contaminated with a foreign substance, the water boils at a higher temperature, and on the other side of the spectrum, salt water can't freeze and that's why the ocean can't turn into a block of ice.

We know water gets hot and boils when you put it near fire, we know it can freeze, but if you choose to ignore everything else because you only want to aknowledge the tip of the iceberg, then you really are choosing to stick your head in the sand.

[Ohemgee]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how enmity works... all you're doing is making common sense, common knowledge.

Water boils . Boiling water is hot.

That is common knowledge.

However what isn't common knowledge is water boils at 100 degrees celcius, if the water is contaminated with a foreign substance, the water boils at a higher temperature, and on the other side of the spectrum, salt water can't freeze and that's why the ocean can't turn into a block of ice.

We know water gets hot and boils when you put it near fire, we know it can freeze, but if you choose to ignore everything else because you only want to aknowledge the tip of the iceberg, then you really are choosing to stick your head in the sand.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscart...es/thln52l.jpg

[Thevaultdweller]

you're right because thats the roll they fill in this game.... What happens to all those PLD's who get pushed to the side? they have to fill your rolls as WHM and RDM? or some other job then other people have to fill your roll... its a selfishness of wanting to be the "LEET TANK OMG!" you some how feel that tanking is the most important roll in a party and want to tank the big bad HNM.... So you seek out every option available... if you want to tank so bad stop being lazy and level PLD.

I think you're confused. No one said anything about making COR a tank.

[Ryko]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how enmity works... all you're doing is making common sense, common knowledge.

Sigh.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

Did you know how much units of hate you get for ALL of these actions?

Didn't think so.

All we knew before were simply 'guesses'. Now we have precise numbers. Why can't you understand the significance of what this means?

The point is you don't need to know how many units of hate you get for all of those actions, to imply that you ever did is absolutely retarded elitist rhetoric. The practical significance of it is essentially null and void unless you plan on building an enmity parser because last I checked few people are capable of running continually rising numbers for 18 people off the top of their head, let alone a second set of numbers that continually rise and fall.

While I appreciated the small bits of enmity information that actually were one of those things you wouldnt have seen otherwise (the retardation of wearing enmity gear while sentinel is up) I'm of the same mindset that it's not revolutionary for there to be hard numbered confirmation that if you--duh--cure for 0, you're getting less hate than if you cured for 190. For one, accumulating volatile enmity never was and never will be the operative part of tanking. While it helps defend against mishaps from DD's going all out, what's much more important is a DD that doesn't have his head up his ass. If anything the gain and loss of volatile enmity is much more important to the DD than it is the tank (and I'm telling you right now, 90% of the DD's this would be helpful to probably didn't read it regardless of how helpful it is to them), and it's my personal conviction to be of the mind that red mage tanks are on the retarded side of acceptability. I'm sorry if you otherwise but the only people who found this revolutionizing tanking in any way, shape, or form, were idiot savants who understood the concepts but somehow weren't capable of doing a passable job beforehand.

[Ohemgee]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how enmity works... all you're doing is making common sense, common knowledge.

Sigh.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

Did you know how much units of hate you get for ALL of these actions?

Didn't think so.

All we knew before were simply 'guesses'. Now we have precise numbers. Why can't you understand the significance of what this means?

The point is you don't need to know how many units of hate you get for all of those actions, to imply that you ever did is absolutely retarded elitist rhetoric. The practical significance of it is essentially null and void unless you plan on building an enmity parser because last I checked few people are capable of running continually rising numbers for 18 people off the top of their head, let alone a second set of numbers that continually rise and fall.

While I appreciated the small bits of enmity information that actually were one of those things you wouldnt have seen otherwise (the retardation of wearing enmity gear while sentinel is up) I'm of the same mindset that it's not revolutionary for there to be hard numbered confirmation that if you--duh--cure for 0, you're getting less hate than if you cured for 190. For one, accumulating volatile enmity never was and never will be the operative part of tanking. While it helps defend against mishaps from DD's going all out, what's much more important is a DD that doesn't have his head up his ass. If anything the gain and loss of volatile enmity is much more important to the DD than it is the tank (and I'm telling you right now, 90% of the DD's this would be helpful to probably didn't read it regardless of how helpful it is to them), and it's my personal conviction to be of the mind that red mage tanks are on the retarded side of acceptability. I'm sorry if you otherwise but the only people who found this revolutionizing tanking in any way, shape, or form, were idiot savants who weren't capable of doing a passable job beforehand.

Oh good word. Kaeko does most of his entries in a BLM perspective. I know his LS knows how to handle hate fine, its just a service to others to show one method (of many) to get a job done. I really don't use the VE/CE guide as much because I wouldn't go apeshit on anything, curing, nuking, umm DDing etc. In the end, DD's will turn into an MP sponge when they do go apeshit, BLMs will turn hate more when they go apeshit (see Chain-Nuking criteria Kaeko brought up in his LJ), and WHMs who overdo it should keep RR up, or something.

You don't need a guide to tell you your doing something wrong in numbers when you can easily adjust the situation yourself. Knowing Dispel is more hate than xxx is good, but only for a RDM's perspective.

[Kaeko]

I actually disagree with the note on VE not being an operatable part of endgame tanking. a PLD/NIN looks like it gets an extremely high amount of VE in it's current common playstyle. I think VE doesn't go down when you take hits, but you sure do get a massive amount of VE using Cure IV (just don't know how much). 2 PLD/NINs taking an occassional hit and using Cure IVs probably gets more VE than the other 2 major tanking styles, and almost certainly beats the decay rate.

This information is not really "game breaking" to a PLD/NIN - I would agree. To be game breaking, the information would have to show that something major that PLD/NINs do right now is incorrect. Based on just players experimenting and using it for awhile, I don't really see any major flaws in the way it is played (minor things like Sentinel only).

I do think that you and I'm guessing Blight is in your LS as well, can at least give in on the fact that certain tanking styles are not as well established as PLD/NIN, but do have similar potential - this is where the information helps more. I don't think WHM/NIN is a comparable tank as far as utility goes to a PLD... I don't think anyone said that. I do think RDM/NIN is in certain spots though since it has significantly better MDB and not every LS has 4+ Aegis PLDs on call.

You guys also have to realize that PLD/NIN is more simplistic as far as "hate moves" go. They know to use Flash and Cure as much as possible - maybe some tiny strategy involving when to use JAs. Something like NIN/DRK or RDM/NIN has a ton of spells to choose from - it's a problem to know what to use and what is optimal; you don't have this problem as a PLD due to lack of spell variety.

As someone mentioned, when something big pops and you need to rush over, what happens when your big PLD tanks aren't there? It happens in a lot of LSs on a lot of servers. Using data like this to learn how to be versatile and flexible helps LSs out that are willing to do so. Some LSs, like mine, also have a ton of RDMs and not as many PLDs, so this information is a little more helpful to us. Not all LSs are made up of a battlion of PLDs or Aeigs PLDs - information can be more useful for 1 group as opposed to another based on job makeup.

This really comes down to an acceptance that there is rarely only 1 method of doing things in a near-optimal manner. I got no argument that using Aegis PLDs isn't a good idea - I'll only argue that there are other tanking styles which can work just as well and that PLD/NIN isn't the only way to go. This being said, information like the enmity stuff may not be as immediately useful to a PLD, but it is for a RDM or NIN tank because there are so many more spells to pick from - it's hard to optimize without numbers. Again, PLDs don't get a big list of spells - what to use is pretty obvious based on lack of options.

In summary, your milage using this info may vary. To dismiss it just because you (as a PLD or PLD based LS) don't find it all that amazing or useful (which I wouldn't disagree with), does not mean it's not very useful to others in different circumstances. People just don't like being shot down as idiots when they get excited about something they find useful. I'm sure that's something people can agree on.

[Diveos]

but the only people who found this revolutionizing tanking in any way, shape, or form, were idiot savants who understood the concepts but somehow weren't capable of doing a passable job beforehand.

Which explains 90% of the tanks in the game.

Maybe this will actually increase them from passable to actually decent. This also give a good template to build on if you happen to actually experiment with other jobs for tanking.

/shrug I think it's a big step for most players. If you couldn't "Feel" how certain abilities worked for enmity in-game this will also go a long way to improve that.

If you were an awesome tank before this, it most likely won't effect you and will seem like old hat. I personally like having confirmation of a few things i've noticed over the years. If you can't appreciate that, maybe you should take a deep breath.

[Kaeko]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how enmity works... all you're doing is making common sense, common knowledge.

Sigh.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

Did you know how much units of hate you get for ALL of these actions?

Didn't think so.

All we knew before were simply 'guesses'. Now we have precise numbers. Why can't you understand the significance of what this means?

The point is you don't need to know how many units of hate you get for all of those actions, to imply that you ever did is absolutely retarded elitist rhetoric. The practical significance of it is essentially null and void unless you plan on building an enmity parser because last I checked few people are capable of running continually rising numbers for 18 people off the top of their head, let alone a second set of numbers that continually rise and fall.

While I appreciated the small bits of enmity information that actually were one of those things you wouldnt have seen otherwise (the retardation of wearing enmity gear while sentinel is up) I'm of the same mindset that it's not revolutionary for there to be hard numbered confirmation that if you--duh--cure for 0, you're getting less hate than if you cured for 190. For one, accumulating volatile enmity never was and never will be the operative part of tanking. While it helps defend against mishaps from DD's going all out, what's much more important is a DD that doesn't have his head up his ass. If anything the gain and loss of volatile enmity is much more important to the DD than it is the tank (and I'm telling you right now, 90% of the DD's this would be helpful to probably didn't read it regardless of how helpful it is to them), and it's my personal conviction to be of the mind that red mage tanks are on the retarded side of acceptability. I'm sorry if you otherwise but the only people who found this revolutionizing tanking in any way, shape, or form, were idiot savants who weren't capable of doing a passable job beforehand.

Oh good word. Kaeko does most of his entries in a BLM perspective. I know his LS knows how to handle hate fine, its just a service to others to show one method (of many) to get a job done. I really don't use the VE/CE guide as much because I wouldn't go apeshit on anything, curing, nuking, umm DDing etc. In the end, DD's will turn into an MP sponge when they do go apeshit, BLMs will turn hate more when they go apeshit (see Chain-Nuking criteria Kaeko brought up in his LJ), and WHMs who overdo it should keep RR up, or something.

You don't need a guide to tell you your doing something wrong in numbers when you can easily adjust the situation yourself. Knowing Dispel is more hate than xxx is good, but only for a RDM's perspective.

Yes, I play BLM on intiution. I don't need a little hate meter to tell me if this nuke is going to get me killed or if I can shake it off in 2-3 blink hits. Just like I'm sure well established PLDs don't need numbers to feel out where they are in terms of hate. I won't deny, and I don't think most PLDs would deny, that numbers can help you be nitpicky if you're a perfectionist (eg. Sentinel & Enmity Gear)

Numbers are good for PRE-PLANNING. This is particularly useful when trying to predict how good doing something abnormal will be like WHM/NIN. I was more impressed, not by the fact WHM/NIN worked, but by the fact this person predicted something that was not all that intuitive based on my data and it worked. Information is useless until you can really apply it - that's why I was excited mainly.

Also, just bear in mind this info is 10 days old... I have no idea what will be known in the next month, so I don't like to trivialize it, nor make it out to be the most amazing thing since inventing the wheel. I think it has promise, that is all.

[Ryko]

Honestly I have no clue who blight is since no one of that name is in my shell. He might have another name on fairy but I know most of our posters' name on this board so I'll have to ask around. I didn't mean to especially discount the rather meticulous planning and execution that went into the information gathering (and even the whm/nin thing as a result) but you'll have to forgive me for rolling my eyes at a good 90% of the responses that end up getting thrown into these topics, whether they be in jest or otherwise (especially the "do you know how many units?" crap as if it especially matters. Just more pointless pop quizzes so people can reestablish dominance in the upcoming repacking of the dunes.)

[Deftscythe]

[quote=Not Kuno]

dumbest fucking conversation ever.... right next to RDM/NIN tanking anything of signifigance... haste your ass right back to the mage groups and start refreshing

now I will glue a wig to your head

and make love to your face

BOOSH!

Called it.[/quote:2x5jy63n]

That's going in the slide show.

[Kaeko]

Honestly I have no clue who blight is since no one of that name is in my shell. He might have another name on fairy but I know most of our posters' name on this board so I'll have to ask around. I didn't mean to especially discount the rather meticulous planning and execution that went into the information gathering (and even the whm/nin thing as a result) but you'll have to forgive me for rolling my eyes at a good 90% of the responses that end up getting thrown into these topics, whether they be in jest or otherwise (especially the "do you know how many units?" crap as if it especially matters. Just more pointless pop quizzes so people can reestablish dominance in the upcoming repacking of the dunes.)

I understand that most things aren't really that important to pinpoint - for instance, I don't even care what the VE value is exactly and just go with a range on everything (+/- 10ish so you can easily use a stopwatch). In the end, the big picture is how does this help you in game - the info itself is useless unless you can apply into the game.

I also know a lot of people have made this out to be like discovering fire - that's their opinion on it. My personal opinion is it is unknown how useful this information really is until some new big strategy is applied and proven to be successful and novel. I think it's exciting and it is something Ashi and I blew a lot of time into, so I like hearing what people have done. I do think that if you hand people more info, they are more likely to progress faster though.

Also, people like looking at numbers. It's like comforting to hear them, even if they are made up. People don't like hearing explanations like "use this over enmity gear because that +3 enmity doesn't outweight 40 HP". They like hearing "that enmity gear is only +3% so you will only get 50ish more VE on your stun, which isn't even a second more of hate". Something to that effect. You can debate whether or not that mindset is obnoxious, but that's just how it works. Just based on that, people would find this info useful, if anything, for the sake of winning little arguments about gear, etc.