Breaking the Tanking mechanics - once again

[Stanislaw]

Especially the "do you know how many units?" crap as if it especially matters. Just more pointless pop quizzes so people can reestablish dominance in the upcoming repacking of the dunes.

What I said wasn't meant to imply that I'm a 'retarded elitist rhetoric', as you put it. I have worded my words badly when I was trying to get a point across and I guess I offended some people because of it. For that, I apologize.

What I meant to say was that this information could be used in many different ways when the situation calls for it. For many of the great players that post on this board who've had tons of experience tanking HNMs and Bosses in other endgame events, all of this is simply common knowledge turned into actual compilable data. For people like me who are comparably new in the field and/or doesn't have much opportunity in participating in those events who had the general idea of how Enmity works but never the specifics - I've been playing RDM for years and I never knew how Dispel pulled that much hate, for instance - this information is really helpful and gives me a better understanding of what to do and what not to do when the situation calls for it.

What I simply couldn't stand was the implied accusation from Blight saying that this is all a useless pile of garbage when some of us find this information very helpful. If I came off the wrong way, sorry. I really didn't mean it that way.

[Ohemgee]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows how enmity works... all you're doing is making common sense, common knowledge.

Sigh.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13848.html

Did you know how much units of hate you get for ALL of these actions?

Didn't think so.

All we knew before were simply 'guesses'. Now we have precise numbers. Why can't you understand the significance of what this means?

The point is you don't need to know how many units of hate you get for all of those actions, to imply that you ever did is absolutely retarded elitist rhetoric. The practical significance of it is essentially null and void unless you plan on building an enmity parser because last I checked few people are capable of running continually rising numbers for 18 people off the top of their head, let alone a second set of numbers that continually rise and fall.

While I appreciated the small bits of enmity information that actually were one of those things you wouldnt have seen otherwise (the retardation of wearing enmity gear while sentinel is up) I'm of the same mindset that it's not revolutionary for there to be hard numbered confirmation that if you--duh--cure for 0, you're getting less hate than if you cured for 190. For one, accumulating volatile enmity never was and never will be the operative part of tanking. While it helps defend against mishaps from DD's going all out, what's much more important is a DD that doesn't have his head up his ass. If anything the gain and loss of volatile enmity is much more important to the DD than it is the tank (and I'm telling you right now, 90% of the DD's this would be helpful to probably didn't read it regardless of how helpful it is to them), and it's my personal conviction to be of the mind that red mage tanks are on the retarded side of acceptability. I'm sorry if you otherwise but the only people who found this revolutionizing tanking in any way, shape, or form, were idiot savants who weren't capable of doing a passable job beforehand.

Oh good word. Kaeko does most of his entries in a BLM perspective. I know his LS knows how to handle hate fine, its just a service to others to show one method (of many) to get a job done. I really don't use the VE/CE guide as much because I wouldn't go apeshit on anything, curing, nuking, umm DDing etc. In the end, DD's will turn into an MP sponge when they do go apeshit, BLMs will turn hate more when they go apeshit (see Chain-Nuking criteria Kaeko brought up in his LJ), and WHMs who overdo it should keep RR up, or something.

You don't need a guide to tell you your doing something wrong in numbers when you can easily adjust the situation yourself. Knowing Dispel is more hate than xxx is good, but only for a RDM's perspective.

Yes, I play BLM on intiution. I don't need a little hate meter to tell me if this nuke is going to get me killed or if I can shake it off in 2-3 blink hits. Just like I'm sure well established PLDs don't need numbers to feel out where they are in terms of hate. I won't deny, and I don't think most PLDs would deny, that numbers can help you be nitpicky if you're a perfectionist (eg. Sentinel & Enmity Gear)

Numbers are good for PRE-PLANNING. This is particularly useful when trying to predict how good doing something abnormal will be like WHM/NIN. I was more impressed, not by the fact WHM/NIN worked, but by the fact this person predicted something that was not all that intuitive based on my data and it worked. Information is useless until you can really apply it - that's why I was excited mainly.

Also, just bear in mind this info is 10 days old... I have no idea what will be known in the next month, so I don't like to trivialize it, nor make it out to be the most amazing thing since inventing the wheel. I think it has promise, that is all.

To be honest, when RDM/NIN was popularized, we already knew that the spells used by RDMs will have a high VE since we saw what NIN/DRK could do and it basically gave a RDM/NINs a basic outline of what to do at tanking. I'm not dissing what you've done, but I just don't find it should be thanked for since RDM/NINs and NIN/DRKs already HAD a spell rotation way before your testing, (see Ouryu NIN/DRK spell rotation). WHM/NIN as I said before isn't a groundbreaking concept either, it just wasn't applied as much since its a situational tank at best. If I could tank and hold hate in February using the exact same thing as the OP mentioned (which I've done before on Shiki and a late Serket), then I could do it now with numbers to back me up.

Now that the loose approximations are there, you can just change the spell order in which you want to cast in. Even with that, efficiency might drop with MP usage (but I guess thats another topic).

You can call me a genius for knowing WHM/NIN worked before the testings, but you wouldn't catch me tanking, I suck

[Kaeko]

I think it's actually clear now that RDM should use Blind whenever possible over Bind - NIN/DRK doesn't get Blind so has to use Bind. I also have always told NIN/DRKs to use Absorb spells when they have the MP - that turns out to be a pretty bad idea. I actually think the current NIN/DRK rotation is flawed (at least the one I posted) - this is a big deal to me since TK is almost exclusively NIN/DRK tanked.

These aren't really game breaking ideas, but nitpicky ones. I think they are pretty 'big' considering this started only about 10 days ago, but it's not really huge in the grand scheme of things. It's not like discovering fire resist gear on Tiamat.

People don't have to sugar coat if they want to say the information isn't as useful as some posters make it out to be. It's only as useful as people make it when they develop strategy in my opinion. Some people play by "feel", some like to go by the numbers. If you go by numbers, you probably find this more groundbreaking.

I also remember seeing an old 2005 BG thread where Zigma tanks Jorm on WHM/NIN. I knew it worked just by seeing that. It's really about optimization rather than discovering an entirely new tanking style. Huge discoveries, like say fire resist, are based on concepts (like saying using fire resist does something); optimization is based on numbers.

[Ashael]

Now that the loose approximations are there, you can just change the spell order in which you want to cast in. Even with that, efficiency might drop with MP usage (but I guess thats another topic).

I wasn't implying that spam tanks weren't already in use and extremely proficient. Just stating that the quantification of the values allows for a far more efficient Hate/MP ratio. And some of the tools were sorta boggling with their cheap cost and hate value.

[Ohemgee]

I think it's actually clear now that RDM should use Blind whenever possible over Bind - NIN/DRK doesn't get Blind so has to use Bind. I also have always told NIN/DRKs to use Absorb spells when they have the MP - that turns out to be a pretty bad idea. I actually think the current NIN/DRK rotation is flawed (at least the one I posted) - this is a big deal to me since TK is almost exclusively NIN/DRK tanked.

These aren't really game breaking ideas, but nitpicky ones. I think they are pretty 'big' considering this started only about 10 days ago, but it's not really huge in the grand scheme of things. It's not like discovering fire resist gear on Tiamat.

People don't have to sugar coat if they want to say the information isn't as useful as some posters make it out to be. It's only as useful as people make it when they develop strategy in my opinion. Some people play by "feel", some like to go by the numbers. If you go by numbers, you probably find this more groundbreaking.

I also remember seeing an old 2005 BG thread where Zigma tanks Jorm on WHM/NIN. I knew it worked just by seeing that. It's really about optimization rather than discovering an entirely new tanking style. Huge discoveries, like say fire resist, are based on concepts (like saying using fire resist does something); optimization is based on numbers.

Well I guess I'm one of the people that wouldn't exactly find the information useful. If all else fails, and I for some reason subbed NIN, I'll step up and start casting Barspells, Flash, and Cure. But my tanks normally wouldn't die D:

[Yomjo]

I think what Ryko is trying to say is that this may be interesting information, but it's not making bad players good all of the sudden >.>

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Truly knowing how enmity works is far more beneficial than just having a good understanding.

Taskmage and I (ffxionline.com forums) performed some testing which showed that the CE gained per DMG dealt drops as the level of the enemy rises:
Lv1 Enemy: 1 DMG = ~13.33 CE
Lv45 Enemy: 1 DMG = ~2.42 CE
Lv50 Enemy: 1 DMG = ~2.18 CE
Lv55 Enemy: 1 DMG = ~2.0 CE

Looking at these numbers you'll notice that it should be entirely possible for NIN/RDM and RDM/NIN to tank on CE alone. The HNMs should be dead before damage dealers reach half the CE cap. I'm assuming that VE from damage decays at a rate greater than it builds in the long run. RDM/NIN would find it easier to cap CE using Chainspell and Sleep, but NIN/RDM should also be able to reach the cap with sufficient refresh.

---

I'll try to get some numbers for Lv75 Steelshells in a week when I have a chance to play again.

[Berdysh]

Was this on a resistant mob?

I know weird things happen after the "bind" effect wears off. I went ahead and added the info and you guys though. I suspect the Bind cast itself is like any normal action, and the "Effect of Bind wears off" effect has some type of CE/VE loss seperate.

I'm also curious as to what your NIN/DRK partner used for his VE? Stun Bind Poison?

I'm his NIN/DRK partner.. here was my routine (using the info you and others provided, of course),

Last Resort (0/1898)
Souleater (0/1898)
Stun (243/1728) -> Bind (?) -> Sleep (432/0) -> Kurayami: Ni (108/324) -> Hojo: Ni (108/324) -> Aspir (432/0)
(1323 / 2376)
Stun (243/1728) -> Absorb MND (0/864) -> Kurayami: Ni (108/324) -> Hojo: Ni (108/324) -> Poison (0/432)
(459 / 3672)

Those were alternated constantly, CE routine then VE routine. It's crude and inefficient, very much an early application of the great info you all have provided...but it's working in the right direction, and I can't wait to see things improved upon. First numerical value is adjusted CE value, second being adjusted VE value, wearing +35 enmity in my standard spam set. Songs were Victory March/Ballad II, timers were rarely an issue, MP was never an issue (I really expected it to be).

Ashael mentioned our JoL, but today it also held off 3-4 BLMs removing 65% of Proto - Omega's HP in a little over four minutes (I engaged, they started nuking after about 40 seconds, and he never stood up...). lolProto - Omega, not really note-worthy, but it's clearly all a step toward establishing a method of tanking that's able to hold off melee and BLM hate spikes much more consistently.

[Ryko]

The HNMs should be dead before damage dealers reach half the CE cap. I'm assuming that VE from damage decays at a rate greater than it builds in the long run.

The fact that you believe this is the case at all should tell you why throwing numbers at how the game works without taking into account basically 4 years of experience telling you otherwise is rather silly. That or you play with some weirdass negaDD's that don't really exist.

[Kaeko]

Melee damage spikes in endgame are extremely strong. Currently, the 3 major tanking schemes are unable to sustain again well played melees going all out. In many situations, they cannot even sustain against chain nuking BLMs.

The data is nice to have, but it's not substantial enough to draw any conclusions in endgame, especially without an estimate multiplier at level 75.

People need to be careful when they give info - it needs to be STRICTLY about numbers and formulas - please try not to jump to conclusions about actual strategy application until we can get a full picture. The only reason I think you should be comparing early data like this with actual game play is to make sure the numbers make sense logically. Other than that, it's really too early to draw conclusions regarding damage.

[Beckwin]

Damage dealt is both CE and VE, correct?

[Kaeko]

Haven't formally started testing it but I believe it provides both.

[Beckwin]

That's my intuition as well, which explains a lot about DDs going all out being able to pluck hate pretty easily.

[Churchill]

The only thing I see holding hate against DD's going all out is a NIN/DRK with Mar/Mar/Ballad/Ballad/Refresh and possibly a COR refresh because otherwise you don't have the MP to sustain your hate well enough to hold off RNG/SAM/BLM etc.

[Kaeko]

Given that someone just found the VE cap to be 10000, it would depend on how much VE a cure gave. I suspect cure 4 provides a very high amount of VE per HP - in the range of 1500-2000 for a 400HP cure 4.

[Beckwin]

Truly knowing how enmity works is far more beneficial than just having a good understanding.

Taskmage and I (ffxionline.com forums) performed some testing which showed that the CE gained per DMG dealt drops as the level of the enemy rises:
Lv1 Enemy: 1 DMG = ~13.33 CE
Lv45 Enemy: 1 DMG = ~2.42 CE
Lv50 Enemy: 1 DMG = ~2.18 CE
Lv55 Enemy: 1 DMG = ~2.0 CE

Looking at these numbers you'll notice that it should be entirely possible for NIN/RDM and RDM/NIN to tank on CE alone. The HNMs should be dead before damage dealers reach half the CE cap. I'm assuming that VE from damage decays at a rate greater than it builds in the long run. RDM/NIN would find it easier to cap CE using Chainspell and Sleep, but NIN/RDM should also be able to reach the cap with sufficient refresh.

---

I'll try to get some numbers for Lv75 Steelshells in a week when I have a chance to play again.

assuming minimum CE/dmg bottoms out at 1.0 before +/- enmity, and assuming you have 8 DDs in a HNM alliance all doing equal damage, anything with over 80k HP is gonna run into CE cap/problems whether you want it to or not, and everyone can relate personally about good DDs pulling hate off of good tanks (including pld ones, which are largely unaffected by this new info- you flash all you can and cure as much as your mp allows; there's really not a whole lot of options here). I agree with kaeko here about not making vast assumptions yet; not enough is known about the math so we're gonna see experience conflicting with what we do know (or suppose to at this time).

[Churchill]

I can pull hate from an Aegis/Haute/Ares PLD though in about 4m on Khim, and RNG isn't really my best job ;/

[Sarial]

It was mentioned at Fanfest that Dancer will have a Provoke and a Stun moved. If these are TP based, and Dancer can self-cure with TP, I see this as a possible SJ option for NIN.

[Kaeko]

I believe the multiplier for damage goes below 1.0 because the Cure multiplier is 0.7275 at level 75.

Also, as far as those level multipliers, can you say which mobs you were using? HP may matter (I don't think so, but you would have to dispel that) in addition to level.

[Beckwin]

Well, given the odds that melees will be in slight enmity gear/merits, the point still stands for now, and 8 DDs can be a lot for some groups. I've noted for awhile that on say, Fafnir, it's much easier to keep it glued on you when you have more DDs on it- simple math really, the damage done is spread out. It's also why I kinda facepalm when people talk about "holding hate off 9 blms!!11!!" as if it's any harder than 1 blm (in fact it's most likely easier).

I'll be interested to hear about the cure curves you come up with though. cool stuff.