Gold, it's only for looks in America.

[Creeps]

BG: where nerdy gamers become global economists

News flash #2: Some of us, in that thing called real life, go to/have graduated from institutes of higher education. In these places we like to call "universities" or "colleges", we study various subject matter, including this crazy concept called "economics". We even get evidence of knowing what the hell we're talking about called "degrees".

[Tricen]

BG: where nerdy gamers become global economists

News flash #2: Some of us, in that thing called real life, go to/have graduated from institutes of higher education. In these places we like to call "universities" or "colleges", we study various subject matter, including this crazy concept called "economics". We even get evidence of knowing what the hell we're talking about called "degrees".

Don't believe Ondore's lies! No one on BG could have possibly been through college, we're only 12 years old!

[evilbau]

First of all:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21602&p=678107&hilit=fairtax#p 678107

Second of all, to OP, there is already an American minted gold coin with a face value of $50: The American Eagle Gold Coins.
http://austincoins.com/images/Americ...ld-Reverse.jpg
OP you need to start reading between the lines and figure out that 'Liberty Dollar', established in 1998, doesn't get to print an alternative currency to the US dollar and pass it off as legal tender. Furthermore, the website seems established more to spout libertarian dogma than to provide a real solution.

I think I'll restrain myself from re-hashing arguments I put forth previously

[Dense]

No, low inflation is a desirable artifact of fiat. It encourages investment rather than hoarding. Whereas in a gold standard, I could earn a bunch of gold, do absolutely nothing with it for 100 years, and still have the same amount of money.

Watch this through, it completely challenges what you're saying, and what you are probably taught in your schools, but please be aware, I do think taht all of us have been misled by media coverage, and education:

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.sw ... 9002339531

Doesn't impress me.

It's meant to be an explanation of the real source of inflation. A tie to the reason why purchasing power has decreased in your country, and a good reason of where the US taxes are going. Taxes in the US are currently being used to pay interest from borrowed money to the Federal Reserve, a private institution. That act of lending, coupled with the fact that the Fed can simply produce money at whim, leads to the current inflation.

As I said, the video doesn't impress me. Inflation is, in moderate amounts, a good thing. It keeps people interested in reinvesting instead of hoarding, and reinvesting means more jobs, which means productivity moves towards the theoretical maximum. The whole "inflation is caused by increases in the money supply" thing is a bit of a red herring. Moderately-low inflation is a natural artifact of a safely growing economy, where the demand for goods and services in the economy will always slightly outweigh the supply. The fed uses interest rates to expand or contract the money supply to curb or accelerate inflation to a healthy point.

With a fiat money, the fed can expand or contract the money supply at will which will accelerate or decelerate inflation. With gold-backed money, the influx or efflux of money into the system is based on, well, the amount of metal dug out of the ground. As I said, the gold standard is basically a set of gold handcuffs that prevent appropriate responses to the economic crises the market naturally goes through.

I disagree completely. The fed uses interest rates to hedge the bubble effect of the borrowed money from completely overtaking free trade and introducing extremely unhealthy rates of inflation. In this effect, Greenspan is both a genius, and a necessary evil.

Aaron Russo's documentary is a better documentary about this topic, but longer (and perhaps harder for you to sit through), called Freedom to Fascism. He was one of the first to do the historical checking into the Federal Reserve, the Federal Reserve Board, and the IRS. His revelations are pretty astounding, and his evidence and list of references is exhaustive.

Archibald:

The Federal Reserve is a completely private organisation whose purpose is to produce money for the US government. If you watch that clip I showed, it gives a rough overview (albeit over the course of an hour), but here's a quick synopsis:

The government of the US spends too much money. Since they can't fund their expenses, they "borrow" money for the Federal Reserve at interest. The Federal reserve can make money and filter into the economy whenever they wish. Your US federal income tax (which is unconstitutional, btw) pays for this interest.

As explained in the video, a financial institution makes money on the difference between investor's interest and lending interest collected. If I invest my savings into a bank at 2-3%, but they lend that same money out at 6-7%, they are making the difference. This is the basic principle behind banking. Usually, to get my 2-3%, I need to have my money set for a certain term, so they can lend it for that term (if we're talking a direct relationship, for ease of explanation, of course). Now, imagine if they make it so they can give me back my money at any time. Add to that, what if they could loan my investment out 10x at the same time, they would be making 10x the amount as previously. This is where the problem comes in.

But the fed can hedge the problem by simply printing more money.

Why do you think the dollar is constantly losing ground against other world currencies? Because it is constantly being devalued through the printing of more money.

For the record, I could care less about the US having a Gold Standard (to be perfectly honest), but the Federal Reserve is completely robbing the US goverment and the future generations of the US, through the method I've just described.

If you have a vested interest, check out Aaron Russo's documentary, as it has the best citations...

[aurik]

Why do you think the dollar is constantly losing ground against other world currencies? Because it is constantly being devalued through the printing of more money.

Uh, fyi, the trend of the depreciating US$ is very contemporary, and is more a reflection of the retarded fiscal policy of the current government and the massive trade deficit, not the excess printing of money.

But thanks for trying.

[Dense]

Why do you think the dollar is constantly losing ground against other world currencies? Because it is constantly being devalued through the printing of more money.

Uh, fyi, the trend of the depreciating US$ is very contemporary, and is more a reflection of the retarded fiscal policy of the current government and the massive trade deficit, not the excess printing of money.

But thanks for trying.

Seriously, check out that link fully or give Russo's documentary a go. It's a semi-contemporary revelation into this whole mess, and it makes a whole lot of sense for the position of the currency currently, and the ties with the national debt of the US. Humour me on this.

[aurik]

Why do you think the dollar is constantly losing ground against other world currencies? Because it is constantly being devalued through the printing of more money.

Uh, fyi, the trend of the depreciating US$ is very contemporary, and is more a reflection of the retarded fiscal policy of the current government and the massive trade deficit, not the excess printing of money.

But thanks for trying.

Seriously, check out that link fully or give Russo's documentary a go. It's a semi-contemporary revelation into this whole mess, and it makes a whole lot of sense for the position of the currency currently, and the ties with the national debt of the US. Humour me on this.

Its more libertarian reactionary bullshit is what it is, just like those videos that claim 9-11 to be the work of secret jewish NSA-mossad double agents or what have you.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/g5a/20000103/

The USD gained strength against virtually every other world currency between 1996 and 1999, so much for your "sky is falling" claim.

[Dense]

Why do you think the dollar is constantly losing ground against other world currencies? Because it is constantly being devalued through the printing of more money.

Uh, fyi, the trend of the depreciating US$ is very contemporary, and is more a reflection of the retarded fiscal policy of the current government and the massive trade deficit, not the excess printing of money.

But thanks for trying.

Seriously, check out that link fully or give Russo's documentary a go. It's a semi-contemporary revelation into this whole mess, and it makes a whole lot of sense for the position of the currency currently, and the ties with the national debt of the US. Humour me on this.

Its more libertarian reactionary bullshit is what it is, just like those videos that claim 9-11 to be the work of secret jewish NSA-mossad double agents or what have you.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/g5a/20000103/

The USD gained strength against virtually every other world currency between 1996 and 1999, so much for your "sky is falling" claim.

Check this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3198&hl=en

[aurik]

Why do you think the dollar is constantly losing ground against other world currencies? Because it is constantly being devalued through the printing of more money.

Uh, fyi, the trend of the depreciating US$ is very contemporary, and is more a reflection of the retarded fiscal policy of the current government and the massive trade deficit, not the excess printing of money.

But thanks for trying.

Seriously, check out that link fully or give Russo's documentary a go. It's a semi-contemporary revelation into this whole mess, and it makes a whole lot of sense for the position of the currency currently, and the ties with the national debt of the US. Humour me on this.

Its more libertarian reactionary bullshit is what it is, just like those videos that claim 9-11 to be the work of secret jewish NSA-mossad double agents or what have you.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/g5a/20000103/

The USD gained strength against virtually every other world currency between 1996 and 1999, so much for your "sky is falling" claim.

Check this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3198&hl=en

How about you check this first:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_reserve

[Dense]

Why do you think the dollar is constantly losing ground against other world currencies? Because it is constantly being devalued through the printing of more money.

Uh, fyi, the trend of the depreciating US$ is very contemporary, and is more a reflection of the retarded fiscal policy of the current government and the massive trade deficit, not the excess printing of money.

But thanks for trying.

Seriously, check out that link fully or give Russo's documentary a go. It's a semi-contemporary revelation into this whole mess, and it makes a whole lot of sense for the position of the currency currently, and the ties with the national debt of the US. Humour me on this.

Its more libertarian reactionary bullshit is what it is, just like those videos that claim 9-11 to be the work of secret jewish NSA-mossad double agents or what have you.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/g5a/20000103/

The USD gained strength against virtually every other world currency between 1996 and 1999, so much for your "sky is falling" claim.

How did your nationial debt look at that time? It was being corrected, the fed was controlling interest rates to hedge inflation, and things were stable. I see you're getting frustrated, but you're not really listening or reading what I've written. I think you'll see why I find this topic interesting, if you get through a couple of the Russo interviews.

[aurik]

I'm not listening to what you're writing because you're repeating lies, like "the federal reserve is a completely private organisation".

When you come to grips with reality, I'll lend you a listen.

[Dense]

I'm not listening to what you're writing because you're repeating lies, like "the federal reserve is a completely private organisation".

When you come to grips with reality, I'll lend you a listen.

The only governmental tie with the federal reserve is the presidential appointment of the board, who aren't even paid by congress. In that respect the Fed is a private entity. At any rate, you've rated this as being libertarian BS, but in effect, it's something that is happening in your country and no one is taking notice...

[evilbau]

Your US federal income tax (which is unconstitutional, btw) pays for this interest.

It is arguably unconstitutional. I would (and have) contended that it is constitutional under Article 1 Section 8.

And to be more specific, it is not the Fed which 'creates more money' but it is the banks. Although the Fed prints money, it is not the primary source of inflation: it is monetary policy. Low interest rates increase the rate of lending. Your characterization of banks role:

As explained in the video, a financial institution makes money on the difference between investor's interest and lending interest collected. If I invest my savings into a bank at 2-3%, but they lend that same money out at 6-7%, they are making the difference. This is the basic principle behind banking. Usually, to get my 2-3%, I need to have my money set for a certain term, so they can lend it for that term (if we're talking a direct relationship, for ease of explanation, of course). Now, imagine if they make it so they can give me back my money at any time. Add to that, what if they could loan my investment out 10x at the same time, they would be making 10x the amount as previously. This is where the problem comes in.

The last part is the most relevant. The amount (percentage) that they have to keep of savings or CDs are on a fractional basis, which allows them to lend many times what they have in capital. As interest rates drop this leads to the creation of more money; the cause of inflation.

If you look at the big picture, without these controls that you have with a fiat currency, we would have had a economic downturn following the dot com bubble bursting, a run of the banks and possible collapse of financial systems similar to the 20's. Some may say that the Fed was irresponsible in its actions but looking back, it probably saved our economy. We were able to turn a period of almost assured economic contraction to growth. Abuses in credit markets are a by-product of this monetary policy but it was (in my view) preferable to a nation wide economic depression.

All that remains is the Fed's little by little attempts to bring things back to normal. Increasing interest rates to rein things back in, and decreasing again to save the credit and bond markets. In essence the Fed is saving us from ourselves again as lax credit underwriting is hardly their fault.

Moreover, the weakening of the dollar has some benefits which are frequently not discussed. It makes our exports more attractive and weakens imports (for those wacky protectionists out there). It reduces the value and worth of debts, of which we have sizable amounts. We need to take steps back and look at the bigger picture.

[aurik]

I'm not listening to what you're writing because you're repeating lies, like "the federal reserve is a completely private organisation".

When you come to grips with reality, I'll lend you a listen.

The only governmental tie with the federal reserve is the presidential appointment of the board, who aren't even paid by congress. In that respect the Fed is a private entity. At any rate, you've rated this as being libertarian BS, but in effect, it's something that is happening in your country and no one is taking notice...

So what you're saying is when you said "it's a completely private organisation" you really meant "it's not a completely private organisation", just like when you claimed the dollar was continuously weakening against foreign currencies you really mean you just don't know what you're talking about and can't remember anything earlier than 2003.

[Charla]

5 years is enough to call something "continuous", although that just means that the word itself can ignore significant spans of time by focusing on other spans of time. It's pretty obvious that the weakening dollar has little to do with the gold standard argument, given that ALL official currencies are fiat currencies.

Also, please don't pin all the conspiracy theories on Libertarians. Libertarians can't even agree on what the word Libertarian means, let alone agree on a conspiracy theory long enough to start one.

[aurik]

I pinned it on libertarian reactionaries, thank you very much.

[Nibe]

A

[aurik]

Actually, the constitution gives the US Gov't the right to tax, the 16th amendment just means it doesn't have to apportion the revenue to the states based on population.

[Jefe]

Its more libertarian reactionary bullshit is what it is, just like those videos that claim 9-11 to be the work of secret jewish NSA-mossad double agents or what have you.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/g5a/20000103/

The USD gained strength against virtually every other world currency between 1996 and 1999, so much for your "sky is falling" claim.

My fallacy-o-meter is going off the charts (read:irrelevant conclusion).

Nywas, gave up on the thread long ago. So why am I bother replying? I'm bored at work, actually, tiem for me to go! Bye niggras! ('-')/

[Quicklet]

Aurik, I suggest you take a look into some of the arguments put forth by Mises or Rothbard. You will probably disagree with what they have to say outright, but perhaps you could enlighten us on where they are mistaken.