Campaign discussion

[Lucavi]

I noticed that on Hades, both basty and windy were at 0 recon., while sandy was at 1 recon, just like yours. The figures look similar as well, but our Yags are at about 60% strength. This is good, though -- let the disbelievers see some cold evidence and continue to just blame bastok over and over.

[Aymee]

Yags hit pretty hard, but their abilities are fail -- the same weak mess we've always seen, and an item-snatching move which rarely targets the weapons. Meanwhile the quads are pumping out AOE gravity and knock back with 600-900 damage, hitting for 140-380, having thf mobs with retarded evasion, and having defense buffs which can nullify all damage for a good deal of time from 75% of their body radius.

Hell the moves aren't even the problem, its the absurd damage scaling -- theres no way my drg should be averaging 190 a hit on orcs, yet hitting for 25-100's on quads.

*DingDing*

Ok, this sums up what I was trying to say in my above post, only it's 1/10th the length.

Here's how you fight Orcs and Yagudo: TP burn and pray someone is a tank job and has a healer with them so they can actually tank, so you don't die randomly.

Here's how you fight Quadav: Stand in the front cone so you can actually do dmg. Pray there's a smart dispeller around so you hit for 25-50 instead of 5-10. Risk getting 1-shot by ridiculous AOE if you do stand in the only area that lets you dmg the mob.

So, zero dmg, or 1-shot. Tough call. And the NPCs are beyond useless because they have no damn clue wtf diamondshell is. As I said before, this alone is enough to deem campaign broken against Bastok, since no matter what our status/morale/prosperity is our NPCs are useless.

Edit: I fail at grammar and spelling.

[Judai]

Did they add Armor to the Chocobos? I saw in SSs before WotG release Chocobos with Armor but when I first went to Windy and even Bastok(the one the SS showed) I did not see Armor on the Chocobos. Now I just ran into Windy and suddenly the Chocobo has Armor on. Maybe it's because of recon level or they ninja added it in? Or did I somehow just miss the Armor before?

[Priran]

Orcs are pissweak and Quadavs are retardedly strong. If what you said was true, they would be equal - but they are not, Quadav can be hit for 1-5 damage, have near 100% accuracy, and their WS's hit in the thousands. Something's very wrong.

If I'd only fought Bakgodek and No'Mho quadavs, I'd say the exact opposite.

most random quadavs hit like HNMs to me, 250-390 damage, while NM orcs melee me for oh I dunno.. 30-60?..

I've been whacked by MNK and NIN yags for upwards of 100 a hand, and for about 200 from Orcs, which then proceeded to take next to no damage.

Tarus have it good because their NPCs can freaking manaburn through anything. Sandy seems to send out a lot of PLDs with a ton of HP that soak up weaker hits from Orc MNKs on the front lines. They can cure themselves and buy time while players mop up. Bastok has like... what? WARs with freaking rapier-type swords vs the beastmen with an insane defense? A company of RDMs that spam enfeebles?

So have you never leveled a Fellow or do you really think weapon model determines NPC damage? Zonpa-Zippa uses a Caduceus and hits for 700+, it doesn't matter. Speaking of Taru, half of their casts are single-target nukes or enfeebles, and none of them do anything spectacular since they rarely target the same mob.

Sandy's PLDs do nothing except whack things with their sword, spam Banish II, and Protect IV each other. On the other hand, doesn't the RDM brigade shoot things with guns?

The Quadav are not retardedly strong because of max prosperity and morale. They have max prosperity and morale because they're retardedly strong.

So then Bastok didn't come dead last on 30 servers in the last event because no one allies Bastok, no one allies Bastok because Bastok came dead last on 30 servers?

Bastok is always in dead last, blaming turtlemen doesn't have shit on precedent.

Yags hit pretty hard, but their abilities are fail -- the same weak mess we've always seen, and an item-snatching move which rarely targets the weapons. Meanwhile the quads are pumping out AOE gravity and knock back with 600-900 damage, hitting for 140-380, having thf mobs with retarded evasion, and having defense buffs which can nullify all damage for a good deal of time from 75% of their body radius.

By this point I'm pretty convinced that no one in Bastok has fought more than one type of each race of beastman, and that this one type is BLM Yag, RNG orc, and PLD quadav.

Yag NMs have straight 1,000 damage AoE. Orc NMs spam Battle Dance for about 3-500 damage each, plus that Haste or Attack Up move, I forget which. There are normal orcs which take between 10 and 30 damage and there are very evasive and damaging yags. Do normal Quadav use Wrath of Gu'Dha and Ore Lob? Because everyone talks like they do.

Also, I saw someone mention Orc Counterstance but I can't find it, it's actually really strong if a strong orc is using it.

But I'm sure its just bastok's, and the people who support bastok's fault. It has no possibility whatsoever of having to do with an often-glitchy game that SE constantly winds up patching and adjusting -- absolutely no chance.

For the Bastok fights which I've been fortunate enough to not be the only person in attendance, the Bastokan fighters consisted between 10 and 20 people moping around outside aggro distance of the quadav fort, staring at it until the music stops. Sandy and Windy (attacking) fights get about the same usually, but they actually, can you believe it, attack the enemies standing at the forts. Sounds like SE's fault to me!

[Lucavi]

Did they add Armor to the Chocobos? I saw in SSs before WotG release Chocobos with Armor but when I first went to Windy and even Bastok(the one the SS showed) I did not see Armor on the Chocobos. Now I just ran into Windy and suddenly the Chocobo has Armor on. Maybe it's because of recon level or they ninja added it in? Or did I somehow just miss the Armor before?

Retcon -- they posted in the 28th update that some images with WotG weren't loading properly -- my guess is armor was one of them. Probably had the wrong .dat in place.

[Builttolast]

Did they add Armor to the Chocobos?

Yes

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/polnew ... 2126.shtml

- An issue wherein chocobo graphics were not properly displayed in the new Wings of the Goddess areas has been addressed.

[Judai]

Did they add Armor to the Chocobos?

Yes

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/polnew ... 2126.shtml

- An issue wherein chocobo graphics were not properly displayed in the new Wings of the Goddess areas has been addressed.

cool beans, thought i was going crazy~

[Lucavi]

Showtime:

I've been whacked by MNK and NIN yags for upwards of 100 a hand, and for about 200 from Orcs, which then proceeded to take next to no damage.

In the strongest Territories of Yag country, I've been hit at the highest (on my piss-poor drg/whm, for christ sakes) for no more than 70 a punch. Orc damage varies -- their counters sting a bit, and they can hit for the 200's, but THEY are weak, take tons of damage, and there is only one Orc with a potent battle dance, and that's One-eyed: something I've repeated constantly in this thread.

Now with Quads, I've been ore tossed for 1.7k, head-butted for 800, triple-attacked by a thf for 250-a-swing, Raged for anywhere from 600 to a freaky 1.4k, which one-shotted pretty much an entire alliance, I've had my eagle-eye drg reduced to a flailing whiff-fest against thf orcs, had my wheelings hit for double digits (something that hasn't happened since dyna xarc demons), have hit for repeatedly for single digits, and have had my wyvern pull hate off of other DDs, simply from doing his usual decent-speed meleeing.

Yes, Yagudo can hurt -- their whms are annoying as fuck, but we're at the point now where everyone is so starved for campaign that EVERYONE is fighting at EVERY zone, and we are STILL struggling against the Quads.

Since you're so anti-bastokan, how do you explain everyone, and I mean EVERYONE who is attempting to do campaign (since there's only one fight at a time) breezing through orcs, having good, thrilling fights through yags, and getting pummeled by quads (especially at Rolanberry). Is it all Bastok's fault? Is it Bastok's fault that the sandorians are hitting just as weak as the bastokans? Is it Bastok's fault that the windurstan mages are nuking for just as weak as the bastokan mages?

Yet when these same bastokans head into orc country, they romp and tear through them like a hot knife through butter -- the only two mobs in the entire orc army that pose a threat are One-eye (AOE) and Conqurer (punshing melee strikes). When the bastokans head to Yag country, they hit pretty good, and take a beating, but dish out just enough to win the fight alongside the others, EVEN when the Yags are at at the same exact morale that the quads are. Why is that? Could it be the air over there? Perhaps the soil is to blame.

So then Bastok didn't come dead last on 30 servers in the last event because no one allies Bastok, no one allies Bastok because Bastok came dead last on 30 servers?

Bastok came in last because there are fewer true bastokans (many are RMT which do no events), and most bastokans don't even try because they know they won't win. However, Bastok has ranked in first in conquest for 3 weeks in a row now, so they're doing something right. Lastly, don't try to compare an event with Campaign: EVERYONE fights together in campaign, and regardless of how many windurstans and sandorians help bastok, if the battle is won on in bastokan territories, it counts as a bastokan win. With all of this being factual, why is it then that the mighty numbers of Sandoria and the powerful magic of Windurst STILL cannot overpower the Quadav alongside of the hardy Bastokans?

Please explain all of this to me, O' Great One!

By this point I'm pretty convinced that no one in Bastok has fought more than one type of each race of beastman, and that this one type is BLM Yag, RNG orc, and PLD quadav.

Wrong again. I've fought Pld orcs, Mnk orcs, Drg orcs, Ranger orcs, War orcs -- Sam yags, Whm yags, Smn yags, Mnk yags -- Thf quads, Blm quads, Pld quads, Drk quads, ect. The blm quads are a joke, but all others are hella tough. Mnk orcs are about the toughest that they cant throw at you. Whm yags give us the most problems, suprisingly.

For the Bastok fights which I've been fortunate enough to not be the only person in attendance, the Bastokan fighters consisted between 10 and 20 people moping around outside aggro distance of the quadav fort, staring at it until the music stops. Sandy and Windy (attacking) fights get about the same usually, but they actually, can you believe it, attack the enemies standing at the forts. Sounds like SE's fault to me!

Your server must not be so campaign starved that everyone is just flocking to whatever zone has the sword icon. We're pushing about 70-90 PCs per zone, and still cannot possibly rebuff the Quads in Rolanberry or Pashhow.

[Kaslo]

Priran why are you trying to go against the world here? Pretty much everyone is saying something is wrong with Quad's (Not just Bastokans) yet you seem to want to be the Pariah of the Anti-Bastok movement...

[Aymee]

So have you never leveled a Fellow or do you really think weapon model determines NPC damage? Zonpa-Zippa uses a Caduceus and hits for 700+, it doesn't matter. Speaking of Taru, half of their casts are single-target nukes or enfeebles, and none of them do anything spectacular since they rarely target the same mob.

I'm quite happy to have a lvl65 npc. She's also too stupid to know to stand in a certain position relative to a mob to dmg/not dmg it. Like this whole Diamondshell thing, just like the campaign NPCs.
It wasn't a statement to their dmg, it was a statement to what a pathetic job selection they are as a counter to Quadav. The elvaan and tarus have far better types of defense in their NPCs for what they're fighting. Oh, and there's that diamondshell thing you forgot to talk about.

Bastok is always in dead last, blaming turtlemen doesn't have shit on precedent.

People aren't here saying they demand 100% fairness via nerfing everything. Obviously if less people fight for Bastok that doesn't mean Bastok deserves a free ride to hold as many regions. Basically the only things people are truly asking for a change in is the defense ratings of some of the turtles to make them comparable to Orcs and Yagudo, and a change in Diamondshell so that our NPCs aren't useless. You keep forgetting to talk about that...

For the Bastok fights which I've been fortunate enough to not be the only person in attendance, the Bastokan fighters consisted between 10 and 20 people moping around outside aggro distance of the quadav fort, staring at it until the music stops. Sandy and Windy (attacking) fights get about the same usually, but they actually, can you believe it, attack the enemies standing at the forts. Sounds like SE's fault to me!

People are making logical arguments about what's wrong with the system, so instead of answering to that you decide to attack the players.

I said it in my above posts--I don't care if Bastokans are are lazy idiots who spend their time slaving Galka in the mines, but we at least deserve a chance to fight on equal footing.


How about you ignore every single suggestion anyone has made and ignore all the complaints and address ONLY the following two arguments:

--Quadav have an unequal defense/hp[?] in comparison to Orcs and Yagudo.
--Quadav TP moves make Bastok NPC fighters 100% useless, giving Bastok a large handicap. Diamondshell is not something NPC AI can counter, and thus is broken/disadvantageous by definition. Knockback/grav AOE and front cone AOE for 1-shots are also far more likely to kill since everyone must crowd the face of the mob.


That's it. Answer to that please so we can have an actual discussion. Go put the flamethrower away and take an ethnic studies course so your hatred of humes can settle a bit.

[Judai]

Oddly enough, I agree with Priran~ The Quads are strong but not as strong as people are claiming and they obviously have not fought against the harder Yags and Orcs. I simply gave up trying to prove to the whiny bastokians that it's just because nobody gives a shit about Bastok. Yes, the quads have some annoying shit but insted of throwing melee at them maybe use some BLMs to counter the high defense.. My BLU raped some Quads, so idk wtf ya'll talking about. I think Bastokians just don't think about how to actually kill the Quads better.

Sandy nearly lost Ronf the first week here and friends of mine were saying the Orcs were insanly powerful but according to all the Bastokians, Orcs are weak as fuck. I don't know about ya'll but my few encounters with Vatgit have left me lying face down.

[Lucavi]

Sandy nearly lost Ronf the first week here and friends of mine were saying the Orcs were insanly powerful but according to all the Bastokians, Orcs are weak as fuck. I don't know about ya'll but my few encounters with Vatgit have left me lying face down.

Sorry, but your server is in the minority, and the best you can come up with is "nobody cares about bastok". Why then, do Sandorians and Windurstans do the same damage as bastokans? You make it sound like theres some attribute penalty slapped on anyone from bastok -- why can an entire Server alliance not successfully and continously destroy the Quads like they can Orcs and Yags?

Answer that, and I'll abstain.

[arshesney]

Last days after update I *tried* doing campaign, it became the shittiest event ever.

Quadavs are gods, most orcs also (only Poisonhand's troop is worthless) orcs hitting for 200ish countering for 400ish, quadavs 4-shot any PLD, ore toss is about as strong as a nuke, 15 people trying to kill an orc in eldieme only took it at 40%ish before wiping, yet I can solo yadudos without effort, won a sarutabaruta campaign with no npcs with only 2 people, me (blu) and a whm

Spam /cmap for one hour, one hour and half, warp to the battle that popped, IF I'm able to get tags it ends, most of the times it's just ended as I enter the zone.

I wasted about 2k AN warping around trying to fight, well I couldn't.

How did you ruin so badly one of the funniest events to do?

About time to hit that CTRL+Z on last >>> CAMPAIGN <<< and only campaign mods.

[Judai]

Hello, I said like 20x in all my posts I personally have obliterated some Quads. You seem to miss the fact that I personally have witnessed groups destroying the Quads. Unfortunately for Bastok I don't bother to go to their Campaigns, I only fight if I happen to be in the area and have some spare time. I've been Ore Lobbed and lived, Wrath of GhuDa or w/e and lived. Then again, the Yags have that 1k damage no matter what your defence or level is move, but hey I guess that's easy to deal with even when some people don't have 1k HP.

In all the Campaign I have done I have never been one shotted except for the time I got Thundaga 3'd by that Orc BLM for like 2000 dmg.

I think it's safe to say nobody thinks when they fight the Quads. I rarely see many BLMs there to combat the high physical defence. Plenty of us have mentioned plenty of times we killed Quads fine and plenty of times Yags and Orcs have raped us but you dismiss anything that does not pertain to your, "Quadav are Demi-Gods" rants. It's quite useless to argue at this point. Continue your QQ though.

[Aymee]

Anyone that can logically counter and prove an argument against the following 3 points wins the thread. Flaming, whining, or disagreeing for the hell of it are not logical arguments, btw.

How about you ignore every single suggestion anyone has made and ignore all the complaints and address ONLY the following two arguments:
--Quadav have an unequal defense/hp[?] in comparison to Orcs and Yagudo.
--Quadav TP moves make Bastok NPC fighters 100% useless, giving Bastok a large handicap. Diamondshell is not something NPC AI can counter, and thus is broken/disadvantageous by definition. Knockback/grav AOE and front cone AOE for 1-shots are also far more likely to kill since everyone must crowd the face of the mob.

Why then, do Sandorians and Windurstans do the same damage as bastokans? You make it sound like theres some attribute penalty slapped on anyone from bastok -- why can an entire Server alliance not successfully and continously destroy the Quads like they can Orcs and Yags?

[Scobill]

I hate to beat a dead horse here but I'd jut like to say thanks to SE turning Campaign into this when they had it damn near perfect from the start:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...olcampaign.png
They're crowded around the C.A. NPC just waiting for the next battle, if you can't tell. There was 18-20 people there, some tarus not shown and others behind that group there.

The main problems before this last update I heard was npcs in Crawler's Nest, The Necropolis and The shitadel disappeared during campaign and people couldn't do their quests and whatnot. Ok... how do we fix this? Make them not disappear during campaign maybe? Omg... why didn't SE think of this? Oh... that's right they did, they did it with the Scholar NPC, why not just leave the quest ones there? We could still have the long ass battles and people would still get their shit done, I don't see a problem.

Another thing I heard was people were bitching about listening to the music in the new areas. Ok sure, I like the new music too. How do we solve this and yet allow ample time for people to make it to the zones since the campaign map updates like my grandma drives. Hmmm, that's a thinker... Oh wait! I got it... use some form of system message that tells when and where what battles are going to be going on. Man... why didn't SE think of this either? Oh wait... they did. They use this system for besieged why not for campaign? And if they really wanna make it "realistic" just add an option to the C.A.s in the towns that allow them to give you a key item linkpearl, that way it'll work like the Marble Bridge's coaster. If you have the key item, you'll get the messages telling you what areas will be attacked and you can head out there regardless of what the stupid campaign map says or the music in the zone.

/rant off

[Lucavi]

Hello, I said like 20x in all my posts I personally have obliterated some Quads. You seem to miss the fact that I personally have witnessed groups destroying the Quads. Unfortunately for Bastok I don't bother to go to their Campaigns, I only fight if I happen to be in the area and have some spare time. I've been Ore Lobbed and lived, Wrath of GhuDa or w/e and lived. Then again, the Yags have that 1k damage no matter what your defence or level is move, but hey I guess that's easy to deal with even when some people don't have 1k HP.

That's all good and dandy, but so have I and everyone else -- at Grauberg and Gustaberg. "Obliterate" the Quadav at Pashhow and Rolanberry, and then come and talk to us. This is BG, land of the "pix or it didn't happen" mindset, so put your money where your mouth is, and show us just how awesome your server does in slaughtering the hapless quadav at pashhow and rolanberry -- the two places where they are elevated to God status. Nobody is talking about them at Grauberg and Gustaberg, because they are as weak as any other beastmen that foolishly attacks fortified structures.

Again, I have yet to see this massive consistant damage that yags are throwing out. We seperate our yagudo by a wide margin, and attack them with about a 15-to-1 ratio: we sleep the rest, and it yields great results. There's no sleeping 300 quads, though, I'm afraid, especially at Rolanberry when you're trying to assault and the NPCs are attacking their backs for 0 damage because SE didn't program them to be able to react to the abilities the mobs use.

I'm sure if the quads were fighting windy, it wouldnt be as much of an issue, what withtheir reliance on magic and all, but having a rdm/rng shooting a quad in the back for 0 digits when she'd be shooting a yag for 500+ in the same spot is somehow Bastok's fault, and not an error in design by SE.

You're in a rush to chastize SE when they fuck something up that you care about, but since "nobody cares about Bastok", apparently this isn't a problem to you. That selfish mindset will take you far, I assure you.

I think it's safe to say nobody thinks when they fight the Quads. I rarely see many BLMs there to combat the high physical defence. Plenty of us have mentioned plenty of times we killed Quads fine and plenty of times Yags and Orcs have raped us but you dismiss anything that does not pertain to your, "Quadav are Demi-Gods" rants. It's quite useless to argue at this point. Continue your QQ though.

The blms are trying to use the same strats that they're afforded the privilege to do against the other beastmen because they aren't invincible from 75% of their body half the time. Oh, they sleep the quads on Hades, and they nuke them one-by-one as well, but you can't sleep em all for long, when once they wake up, theres 40 enraged turtles running at flee speed straight for your soft taru hide.

Maybe you complain so much about Yagudo AOE because your mages are meleeing up close? Perhaps if they stood back out of AOE range, you wouldn't have to come here and talk up Yag AOE damage like its your one ace in the hole in this discussion. You've neglected to address the key points of AI inbalances, and instead cling to the dual notion that "bastok sucks so nobody wants free xp by helping them out" and "once they do help them out, they play like idiots (IE the same way the play against the other two beastmen races, but obviously they're stupid since the quads are stron- oh wait)". Please make up your mind. Which is it?

[Priran]

I just finished a Grauberg Campaign battle against quadavs where, surprisingly, the sky did not open up and release an unrelenting monsoon of shit. The most damage I took the entire time was just shy of 600, from being the sole target of Banishga II. I hit for over 100 on the NM and someone's Courier Carrie hit for between 200 and 350 depending on which soul-devouring murderturtle he decided to target.

Diamond Shell didn't bother me, the NM never used either NM attack, and the fight was over in a few minutes.

People from Bastok really seem to be struggling with the "some generals lead packs of thalidomide kids, some lead death incarnate" thing. There are strong Orc generals (One-Eye, Bakgodek) and Yag generals (fuck if I remember their names, one lead the Inciters and the other led a bunch of BLMs and oneshotted me with Aeroga III). The only difference between the races seems to be the frequency at which these strong generals appear. GEE I WONDER WHY THAT IS LOL.

[Judai]

Anyone that can logically counter and prove an argument against the following 3 points wins the thread. Flaming, whining, or disagreeing for the hell of it are not logical arguments, btw.

How about you ignore every single suggestion anyone has made and ignore all the complaints and address ONLY the following two arguments:
--Quadav have an unequal defense/hp[?] in comparison to Orcs and Yagudo.
--Quadav TP moves make Bastok NPC fighters 100% useless, giving Bastok a large handicap. Diamondshell is not something NPC AI can counter, and thus is broken/disadvantageous by definition. Knockback/grav AOE and front cone AOE for 1-shots are also far more likely to kill since everyone must crowd the face of the mob.

Why then, do Sandorians and Windurstans do the same damage as bastokans? You make it sound like theres some attribute penalty slapped on anyone from bastok -- why can an entire Server alliance not successfully and continously destroy the Quads like they can Orcs and Yags?

Quads HP is not anymore then other groups but their Defence is high yes. Try using some Magic on them instead of throwing melee.

Quad TP moves only make NPCs useless because the noob players constantly turn the Quads all around. Learn2tank them and turn them so the NPCs aren't whacking from behind. I said, nothing except the Orc BLM ga3ing me has one shot my Taru ass. The most I have been hit for other then that was 1k by Yagudo. I have never been hit for more then 900 by any Quad NMs AoE.

You could always try kiting the NM while people kill the smaller Quads. People can also sleep them or even kite them and work on one at a time. I am constantly sleeping hordes of mobs in campaign so people can work on them one at a time. Some people don't get that though and just hit w/e.

More people go to Windy/Sandy ones then Bastok from my pov so that would be why Quads aren't destroyed with such ease.

Why is Bastokians don't think about how to exploit their enemies weakness and instead QQ and ask for a nerf? I have to assume this is how SE intended them since there has been like 5 maints and nothing has changed with the Quads.

btw, the only Quads I have ever fought against wer ein Rolanberry and I killed plenty with ease. I have never participated in a Campaign in Gusta, Grauberg or Pashow.

edit; I did not complain about Yagudo AoE, I simply used that as an example to your Wrath of GuhDha shit and the fact the Yagudo have an AoE that is even worse.

[Kaslo]

Quad TP moves only make NPCs useless because the noob players constantly turn the Quads all around. Learn2tank them and turn them so the NPCs aren't whacking from behind.

That doesn't work when the NPCs are surrounding the mob, at that point no matter where you point the mob only 25% of the NPCs will be able to hit it. And before you say move the mob to re-align NPCs, if you notice when you do that NPCs tend to re-circle.