Dancer discussion

[ruf]

Responding to wizerd: yeah, I think TP can be used for WS under the right situation. I just had a party with an actual healer instead of two dancers healing and it did seem like there were times when we were just sitting on TP. Anyway I'm only 25 on the job so theres no useful WS and having a near full store of TP has been nice when there were emergencies or particularly evasive mobs.

[Xanthe]

I don't think Flourish is anything like WS...
it simply trigger SC : "If you do WS, its SC effect will be enabled"
Since
WF -> Penta enable compression (SC property: compression only)
WF -> Rampage or DE enable scission (Scission / Primary scission respectively)

I have vague memory where someone said WF -> SB will generate frag.

That's exactly what I described above. Wild Flourish acts as a generic opener and a weapon skill's primary level 1 property will determine the skillchain. Yoshimiki also posted above that he talked with a DNC75 and Wild Fourish > Shark Bite does nothing. If that made something, then Wild Flourish > Evisceration would also have to make Gravitation and not Transfixion, since it's primary element is Gravitation.

[Anakron]

Yea, the extra TP is great for emergencies, especially when you can't sleep a link. Since the Waltzes are JAs, you can basically spam yourself to stay alive until the first mob dies, even if both are beating on you at once (which usually makes Curing impossible).

[Yoshimiko]

Do all steps give 2 finishing moves? If so would Reverse Flourish at 4 be more efficient then at 5?

[Wizerd]

Do all steps give 2 finishing moves? If so would Reverse Flourish at 4 be more efficient then at 5?

Yes, in an exp party or other places where mobs die fast.


I did some testing with Box Step since it's the only one of the 3 steps that can give exact numbers without taking a really long time to test (checking mobs changing accuracy / DEX gear while trying to keep a certain level of Quickstep on a mob would be annoying and difficult).

In Brenner, I went as BRD75/DNC32 with a DRK75/BLU37. I have no idea whether subbing it effects the enfeeble yet.

For the first round of Box Steps, I had the DRK wear his normal gear, and used all my DNC gear on BRD. I got the following values:

0 Box Steps: 287
1 Box Step: 273 (~5% down, 14 defense down)
2 Box Steps: 267 (~7% down, 6 more defense down)
3 Box Steps: 261 (~9% down, 6 more defense down)
4 Box Steps: 255 (~11% down, 6 more defense down)
5 Box Steps: 250 (~13% down, 5 more defense down)


For the second round, I swapped in all my CHR gear on BRD, with the suspicion that CHR may affect the steps - it didn't, at all. I got the exact same numbers at all 5 levels.

For the third round, I had the DRK put up Cocoon and swap in a little defense gear, to bring his defense up to 471. This was also done to test whether Box Step dispelled Cocoon like Acid Bolts do.

0 Box Steps: 471
1 Box Step: 456
2 Box Steps: 450
3 Box Steps: 442
4 Box Steps: 436
5 Box Steps: 430

I found these results a little peculiar. Either way, the results of the Cocoon vs Box Step test were that it was a different effect. This means that Box Step's defense down should stack with Acid Bolts and its equivalents. It also means Box Step won't Dispel Cocoon and other defense buffs.


I'm about to use my wife's character to run some more tests on different defense values, to determine if % has anything to do with it, or if perhaps it's base defense only and Cocoon didn't affect it at all (this would be guess, considering the DRK swapped in some defense gear as well as Cocoon; it would explain why the values went down only an extra point or two at a time, instead of several).


Edit: New tests done, and it seems Cocoon was wonking up my numbers, so disregard the 4xx defense value test. It appears only base defense including gear is what affects the defense down gained from Box Step, which makes sense I think. I don't know how Minne or anything else work with this, so I can't really make assumptions, but Cocoon is definitely very separate.

I tested two things:

The first was whether Dancer subbed changes the defense down values compared to Dancer main. I took my wife's character to Brenner as SCH39, and beat on her first with DNC, then with BRD/DNC, and got the same defense values in both tests.

The second test was just against a couple more defense values. The first was 100 Defense, with an even amount of VIT. The results were pretty simple:

100 base defense
95 with 1 Box Step
93 with 2 Box Steps
91 with 3 Box Steps
89 with 4 Box Steps
87 with 5 Box Steps

This seemed simple - 5% for the first one, and 2% afterwards. I then tried calculating it the same as before and it didn't work out to those exact %s, so I changed the way I calculated the first one, and I've changed the values - they line up to this test, 5% -> 2% following. The only problem is I don't know how the game rounds defense. Some of the numbers would easily round to each level of 2%, but were varying both above and below. The numbers are there, if any math people wanna figure it out.

I tested 120 defense next, and got the following:

120 base defense
114 with 1 Box Step
112 with 2 Box Steps
109 with 3 Box Steps
106 with 4 Box Steps
104 with 5 Box Steps

Which also lined up to a 13% total and the same figures as before, give or take a few decimals.

I wish I had some higher defense values to test this on (such as exactly 200, 300, or 400) but I don't at the moment, and I'm about to take a nap so have fun with my results. :D

[liefe]

Hmm..that tells us something about dancer but I bet the steps are nerfed as /DNC. Any chance that you can try in a lower level cap with DNC main?

[Wizerd]

Hmm..that tells us something about dancer but I bet the steps are nerfed as /DNC. Any chance that you can try in a lower level cap with DNC main?

Just tried it, the steps aren't nerfed as /DNC it seems, I got consistent results but I have to edit my post above.

Some changes/additions/confirmations include:

- Defense down values seem to be 5% at first, followed by 2% each, totalling 13%, not 15%.
- Cocoon (and possibly other defense buffs) had no result on the defense down %, just base defense including gear it seems.

[lost071]

The big thing I'm worried about for DNC is HNMs. I honestly cannot see this being a good healer for HNMs. I mean sure its cures are as powerful basically as a WHMs, but they need TP to use their dances. Other melee jobs have a tough time as it is to gain TP. In order to heal consistently we'll need to be constantly gaining TP.

[Wizerd]

The big thing I'm worried about for DNC is HNMs. I honestly cannot see this being a good healer for HNMs. I mean sure its cures are as powerful basically as a WHMs, but they need TP to use their dances. Other melee jobs have a though time as it is to gain TP. In order to heal consistently we'll need to be constantly gaining TP.

You're right. I see Dancer being an enfeebler for HNMs. It requires 40 TP per minute to use Stutter Step every 15 seconds on a mob. If SE is smart, they will put some Subtle Blow on the original AF when they release it. With gear like Rajas Ring and a Subtle Blow trait or two (/NIN) as well, getting 40 TP from an HNM to keep Magic Evasion -13% on it would be greatly worth it in the long run.

But I agree, healing won't be for HNMs. I can see Dancer being an excellent healer in Dynamis though. I can't wait to get lv75 and try it out in the tank party where they get Double March and Haste too. Can easily replace a WHM in that slot I think.

[liefe]

The biggest weakness Dancer has is that, compared to mages who can start a given battle with 100% MP, this job will basically start at 0%. Once you get the momentum of reverse flourishes going you might be ok, but until then you're pretty much behind.

I don't really see how an auto-regain trait would really be that game breaking. 15 minutes to recover TP? That or maybe the ability to recover small amounts of TP per tick while resting.

That being said, I still think the job has enormous potential. Would be nice if they increased the Haste Samba edit: and Daze effect duration though.

[Max™]

I can see it now.

Dancer's Justaucorp's (or whatever the body piece is called) Latent Effect: Auto-Regain.

Latent Trigger: TP below 60%~100% or so.

Problem Solved, HNM functionality ensured, noone bitches that they get Auto-Regain if it only cuts off at a certain amount.

[VZX]

I wish I had some higher defense values to test this on (such as exactly 200, 300, or 400) but I don't at the moment, and I'm about to take a nap so have fun with my results. :D

256! :D

[Vigion]

The biggest weakness Dancer has is that, compared to mages who can start a given battle with 100% MP, this job will basically start at 0%. Once you get the momentum of reverse flourishes going you might be ok, but until then you're pretty much behind.

I don't really see how an auto-regain trait would really be that game breaking. 15 minutes to recover TP? That or maybe the ability to recover small amounts of TP per tick while resting.

That being said, I still think the job has enormous potential. Would be nice if they increased the Haste Samba edit: and Daze effect duration though.

SE's main intentions for Dancer was to be on the frontlines, I don't think resting for TP would ever be added.

[Max™]

Idling to 300% Tp, no, I don't see it honestly.

Having something where you can always get up to say 60% TP (without /Sam being required) would let you start off from scratch, and shouldn't break things.

[Seigfried Of Pandy]

i have feeling dnc roll when it comes out will be regain

[lost071]

Idling to 300% Tp, no, I don't see it honestly.

Having something where you can always get up to say 60% TP (without /Sam being required) would let you start off from scratch, and shouldn't break things.

You know this is actually a really good idea. It wouldn't really break anything since it would cut off at 60% TP. Until AF is added and we see what benefits it brings, one thing you could do is what a lot of melees do which is either to build TP from mobs in the surrounding area or sleep for 300% TP at the beginning of the battle. The only problem with this is how accurate will steps be against higher lvl HNMs? If you miss multiple steps in a row using reverse flourish really isn't going to give you any net TP. I'm gonna assume that one of the AF pieces is going to "enhance flourish effects" and boost reverse flourish to between 80%-100% tp with 5 finishing moves. They really should add a piece of equipment that has a latent effect "Auto-regain" even if its not one of our AF pieces.

[Wizerd]

Actually, addressing the idea of TP gain at HNMs or TP sensitive NMs, it is very possible for the dancer to be meleeing another mob while maintaining normal steps / cures on a mob or party. Anything that requires you to be engaged (various Flourishes, and all the Steps) can be performed while engaged to a different mob, if you choose the JA from menu and select another mob in range, or use an <stnpc> macro.

It won't help in BCNM battles or anything, but it would help on something like Tiamat. It would add another small level of maintenance to the group unfortunately, though, with an extra mob to worry about - even if the Dancer has full control over it.

Totally still fucked for Khim though.

[Delekii]

make a new brygid the stylist item for dancer that is identical to gaudy harness, but for TP instead. Latent Effect: Regain, caps at 49TP. It means they have to give up one of the best item slots accuracy wise, doesn't give enough TP to be worth it in situations where you can melee, but gives some leighway on nms like khimera. They can even use the same model as gaudy harness since the gaudier the better!

[liefe]

Actually an ability that gave regain that cut off at a certain point is a really good idea. 60TP seems about fair too.

[Anakron]

I can see SE giving us a dance that costs 40TP, and regenerates 60TP over 2 minutes or something.