Dancer discussion

[Max™]

Most people just Dnc/Nin, yeah.

Dnc/Sam would have a spot in certain things I can think of, BC/ENM/KSNM, Mission fights, perhaps for camping long pop window mobs, you get there on time and you can meditate up 300 Tp before it pops usually, enough to make sure you can land however many -Meva steps you need, and toss out some cures to boot.

For Exp, no, people just /Nin.

[Mikayla]

I'd edit my previous post, but since this is completely unrelated I felt it deserved its own:

What gave people the impression that Curing Waltz spells give less Enmity than their Cure spell equivalents? It seems to me that for the amount cured, it gives the exact same amount of Enmity, if not more. I can see the reason people thinking this is because the Waltzes start out curing less than the spell equivalents, but by now this should seem wrong.

Also wanted to ask anyone with DNC at 70+ about Curing Waltz IV; does it give Enmity like Cure V (ie: less than Curing Waltz III), or is there no evident reduction on its hate?

It seems like it has enmity closer to Cure V, but to be honest, I haven't done any concrete testing. This is just from a glance, but I've pulled hate more with Curing Waltz III than IV.

[Nyiri]

Not sure if this has been answered, but have people over 60 tried out dnc/sam? I know sam as a sub really shines with 2h weapons and not having access to Seigan or Hasso may be enough for some to discredit it, but it seems to me like Meditate alongside Reverse Flourish would be great. And the ability to start with at least enough TP to get the first waltzes going, which is a minor annoyance in exp, but could be pretty useful for BCs and the like.
Are people just going dnc/nin the whole way up?

Before playing the job, I sort of expected to want DNC/DRG at 30, as 6% haste and attack+6 are pretty compelling. By the time I'd reached 30, I had spent enough time cotanking that I didn't want to give up Utsusemi.

I also expected I'd want to switch to DNC/SAM at 60... after all, Meditate and Store TP would clearly benefit the job! Similar story there, though. Those cures generate a decent chunk of enmity, and few dancers, myself included, gear theirselves to avoid this. Also, by the time I'd reached 60, my TP rate in XP parties has long since become a non-issue. If my TP rate *were* an issue, it would be because the party needs near-constant beefy cures. In this situation, I expect enmity would swiftly become more problematic than TP rate. The job is sort of self-balancing in this way.

I don't know about other dancers, but I've mostly been levelling the job with meleeburn-style parties where everyone has ninja subjob, including the paladin that I've been semi-staticing with. In this situation, I've been using cures as a form of provoke, letting people get into the range where I can drop my largest one on them, buying myself three shadows' worth of hate, after which the paladin throws out a Flash or the thief drops a SATA, and the paladin is tanking once again. At this point, I can recast utsusemi and be ready to repeat the process. This sort of setup has been extremely effective, and has been pulling down meleeburn experience rates, without a bard.

There are probably situations where support jobs other than ninja would be desirable for a dancer... BC fights, HNM fights, stuff like that. So far that I've played, though, XP parties are not that situation. Pretty much everyone just rides DNC/NIN to the top. What they do from there... I'll see when I get there. 8)

[ruf]

Cool. I really like the idea of dnc being used as partially healer/tank/debuffer/DD. Taking it from 30-37, I was setting up sata and pretty easily pulling hate off the ninja's I partied with even without often relying on animated flourish. I guess with the increased cost of curing waltzes, I imagined it'd be more and more necessary to keep really high TP a majority of the time, though that may end up being more of a way to get the dancer killed than spreading out smaller cures and keeping drain daze on the mob.

[Wizerd]

I also expected I'd want to switch to DNC/SAM at 60... after all, Meditate and Store TP would clearly benefit the job! Similar story there, though. Those cures generate a decent chunk of enmity, and few dancers, myself included, gear theirselves to avoid this. Also, by the time I'd reached 60, my TP rate in XP parties has long since become a non-issue. If my TP rate *were* an issue, it would be because the party needs near-constant beefy cures. In this situation, I expect enmity would swiftly become more problematic than TP rate. The job is sort of self-balancing in this way.

My TP rate has been an issue recently sometimes, and I'm at lv55, but this is mostly only in certain party situations.

Example: 2-3 SAM/WARs co-tanking with Seigan/Third Eye. I tank a decent chunk of these parties too, but they are awesome for damage, and are great when there are no bards or no healers on. I'm also in set with a SCH, which poses some problems for typical Haster, Bard, Dancer(to replace second bard), 3x melee setups. SAM SAM SAM DNC SCH WHM was one, where the WHM and I basically spammed cures, more me than him. That party was easily getting BRD style exp for lv50. My most recent one, which was clocking in at 11-12k/hr, was BRD SCH DNC NIN SAM THF, where the SCH subbed BLM and was able to consistently nuke almost the entire time. Best part is we were fighting Colibri, so I occasionally had my food and TP wiped. When your NIN is 53 on Colibri with no Haste, he tends to get damaged. Same with that SAM who doesn't like to use Seigan, haha. However, I was able to main heal the party pretty darn well, almost always keeping under 100 TP just so that if I did gain hate, I wasn't at a huge loss when it decided to own me.

Point? I agree, the job is very self balancing and it's very nice to be able to spam Cure IVs without consequence. A RDM or WHM can't do that.

I don't know about other dancers, but I've mostly been levelling the job with meleeburn-style parties where everyone has ninja subjob, including the paladin that I've been semi-staticing with. In this situation, I've been using cures as a form of provoke, letting people get into the range where I can drop my largest one on them, buying myself three shadows' worth of hate, after which the paladin throws out a Flash or the thief drops a SATA, and the paladin is tanking once again. At this point, I can recast utsusemi and be ready to repeat the process. This sort of setup has been extremely effective, and has been pulling down meleeburn experience rates, without a bard.

I've found my best parties in good ol' skillchain parties, but again, I'm set with a Scholar so I like to use that potential as I can. I imagine when we get to the level of Helices, we might start doing some slight overhunting on non-reflecting mobs that'll take some nice MB'd Helix spells to the face, but it depends how much HP they have left; may not be worth it, I don't know. But since I only just hit lv55, and am about to enter the TP burn levels, I get to see how well Dancer performs. XD

Cool. I really like the idea of dnc being used as partially healer/tank/debuffer/DD. Taking it from 30-37, I was setting up sata and pretty easily pulling hate off the ninja's I partied with even without often relying on animated flourish. I guess with the increased cost of curing waltzes, I imagined it'd be more and more necessary to keep really high TP a majority of the time, though that may end up being more of a way to get the dancer killed than spreading out smaller cures and keeping drain daze on the mob.

A fun fact about Curing Waltzes... It's more efficient TP-wise to use Curing Waltz IV on someone to cure 500 HP than it is to use Curing Waltz III > Curing Waltz. Compare this to a WHM who has the option of casting Cure V (135 MP), or Cure IV (88 MP) followed by Cure II (24 MP), to cure 500 HP (for a total of 112 MP spent).

The higher your Waltzes get, the better it is to use the higher Waltz to overcure than the lower Waltz to undercure. Our highest costing JA is Curing Waltz IV at 65 TP, and that comes at a cost of about 15-25 seconds depending on accuracy and hastes. A WHM can't put out that kind of healing, nor can a WHM handle the brunt that comes from spamming it.

[lost071]

Cool. I really like the idea of dnc being used as partially healer/tank/debuffer/DD. Taking it from 30-37, I was setting up sata and pretty easily pulling hate off the ninja's I partied with even without often relying on animated flourish. I guess with the increased cost of curing waltzes, I imagined it'd be more and more necessary to keep really high TP a majority of the time, though that may end up being more of a way to get the dancer killed than spreading out smaller cures and keeping drain daze on the mob.

I hate this and I'm really not going to depend on it. Being decent in multiple areas=no spot in endgame. Endgame is all about specialization. People what the jobs that can fill certain roles the best, not jobs that can fill in a couple roles decently. I really like the healing/enfeebling aspect of the job, and I think thats where SE is going to build off of. I mean they said the job was a frontline healer with some support abilities. This makes it similar to WHM or RDM.

[Max™]

I'm sorry, did I forget the other jobs that could impair magic evasion?

That is unique, highly desireable, and placed in a job that can provide tons of extra curing power to boot.

[Lucavi]

/Nin is all you're ever going to see, unless you see some wacky JP doing dnc/whm like an idiot. Didn't you guys get the memo about /nin being the only sub to use for anything?

[Vigion]

I'm sorry, did I forget the other jobs that could impair magic evasion?

That is unique, highly desireable, and placed in a job that can provide tons of extra curing power to boot.

Need to be in same party for that effect huh? Don't know how valuable this would be, because you would have to replace someone. Wonder if replacing a BLM in the party would be good.

[Cylo]

Actually if you have a BLM party, a melee dd party and a tank party... the DNC could be the healer for the melee DD party while still sticking magic evasion down.

I have no idea how this helps merit parties.

[Max™]

Uh, no, last I checked you don't have to be in party to get the Step effects.

Samba's require that.

I know when Dnc's in campaign outside my party use Steps I see the "The Qulun Heavyshell is afflicted with Lethargic Daze [Lv.3]" message.

Pretty sure it's a general debuff to the mob that benefits anyone, so you could put a Dnc in the Tank party to provide a hate buffer between the squishier healers and the tanks for some things, or just have them in any appropriate party with a slot to put -MEVA on the mob for the Blms.

Edit: Like Zy said, you could also put them with the melees, without a refresher needed, and they could keep that part up on their own. Hell, a /Dnc melee or two could do a respectable job keeping a melee party up for many things.

[Cylo]

Uh, no, last I checked you don't have to be in party to get the Step effects.

You're right. And I think I am just realizing the true power of Steps here in large events.
Imagine... landing Quick or Box Step is like giving everyone in dynamis accuracy+ or attack+. Even Bards can't do that. I just hope they don't make it impossible to land on the harder stuff.

Has anyone found a way to improve accuracy of Steps?

[Max™]

Uh, no, last I checked you don't have to be in party to get the Step effects.

You're right. And I think I am just realizing the true power of Steps here in large events.
Imagine... landing Quick or Box Step is like giving everyone in dynamis accuracy+ or attack+. Even Bards can't do that.

*gives Cy a gold star, to make up for calling him Zy earlier*

You are correct Sir!

Same with landing the -Meva one, can't remember the name, but yeah Dnc has a slot secured for many things given it's unique tools, even if it's just a couple of them.

[ruf]

About specialization: the one thing I see more than anything else in this game is a disregard for the intended specialization of a certain. People gear pld for DD, for main healing, and for tanking. Nin has gone from an intended ranged attacker and enfeebler to straight DD and versatile tank. People want to tank on whm, and it seems like it may work in certain situations. There is no such thing as pure specialization in this game as long as players are willing to try unexpected things. DNC, as far as I can see, doesn't necessarily have the greatest potential in end-game situations due to the need to TP on stuff that may either have high evasion or def, resulting in slow TP gain or whatever. However, if the past is any indication, players will find a way around that, and I hope they do. They seem to be given a good number of directions they can be pushed in, and gear/play style can pick which way you decide to focus.

[Anakron]

Has anyone found a way to improve accuracy of Steps?

Should be dependent on main-hand accuracy.

On another note, how often are people landing the Stun on Violent Flourish? I was exping on +7-9 LVL mobs and missed the stun on only 1/4 or 1/5, which isn't that bad. Obviously, you won't rely on it at HNMs but it could help stop, say, gobbie bombs while exping. Might also come in handy to stop Behemoth Meteors and earth-based mobs' (e.g. Jailer of Faith) spells once in a while.

[Charla]

I'm sorry, did I forget the other jobs that could impair magic evasion?

Closest thing I can think of is warlock's roll, but that only affects one pt. I thought dream shroud gave m.acc too, but apparently that's just MAB and MDB.

Wait, don't threnodies reduce resist rate of hit-or-miss (debuff) spells? Or do they only work on magic damage?

[Max™]

Yeah, pretty sure -MEVA is a unique thing to Dnc, and one that Blm's will LOVE them for, along with Sch.

[Xanthe]

I'm sorry, did I forget the other jobs that could impair magic evasion?

Closest thing I can think of is warlock's roll, but that only affects one pt. I thought dream shroud gave m.acc too, but apparently that's just MAB and MDB.

Wait, don't threnodies reduce resist rate of hit-or-miss (debuff) spells? Or do they only work on magic damage?

I'm pretty sure thredonies are like anti-barspells, reducing a target's resistance against a particular element. They should affect both debuffs and damage spells.

[miokomioko]

I'm sorry, did I forget the other jobs that could impair magic evasion?

Closest thing I can think of is warlock's roll, but that only affects one pt. I thought dream shroud gave m.acc too, but apparently that's just MAB and MDB.

Wait, don't threnodies reduce resist rate of hit-or-miss (debuff) spells? Or do they only work on magic damage?

I'm pretty sure thredonies are like anti-barspells, reducing a target's resistance against a particular element. They should affect both debuffs and damage spells.

Thus, reducing magic evasion towards a specific element. So yes, Bard technically does that, if only to one element at a time... and let's not forget elemental Ninjutsu as well if we're being nit-picky.

[Max™]

So there are specific elemental debuffs, but across the board (probably -13%) MEVA, helping other debuffs land, nukes land, and the like. Still a unique thing, and powerful enough to make people want to bring them along.