Dancer discussion

[kooldogy]

I am a newer DNC and interested in making the job the best it can be. I was wondering about Violent Flourish. I read that people seem to notice a difference in Acc after Stutter step. A friend of mine that is 75dnc said they noticed the same effect when boosting Att. Both may be a coincidence in my mind as I have not seen actual testing for either case. Has anyone else noticed a change based on att? She did this by using meat and /war for straight Att boost no acc outside of her normal gear and claimed a noticeable increase in the amount of times the monster would be stunned. I am unaware as to what monster the test was carried out on. - Also wow lots of cool little graphic things to choose from when you make a post ^^

[Shadowhusky]

I am a newer DNC and interested in making the job the best it can be. I was wondering about Violent Flourish. I read that people seem to notice a difference in Acc after Stutter step. A friend of mine that is 75dnc said they noticed the same effect when boosting Att. Both may be a coincidence in my mind as I have not seen actual testing for either case. Has anyone else noticed a change based on att? She did this by using meat and /war for straight Att boost no acc outside of her normal gear and claimed a noticeable increase in the amount of times the monster would be stunned. I am unaware as to what monster the test was carried out on. - Also wow lots of cool little graphic things to choose from when you make a post ^^

Sounds like a placebo effect to me. Stutter and +acc sounds like the best bet to landing stun.

[kooldogy]

Everything is a placebo until tested against one. ^_^ Ty though.

[kooldogy]

Did a very small test cause I am to lazy to do more.

On IT Catoblapas (Dhalmel)

No Stutter step
Stunned 40% of 20 Violent Flourish

Lv.1 Stutter Step
Stunned 70% of 20 Violent Flourish


With such a small sample size it does not prove anything. Especially considering the assumed % down caused by steps is Lv.1 5% 2% increase thereafter. This shows a 30% difference though.

[Anakron]

What do you guys think about the possibility of a DNC (or NIN/DNC) soloing (or duoing with a PLD) Charybdis? I know NIN, BRD, RDM can easily trio it, and I'm thinking how DNC has a little bit of what all 3 jobs bring. DNC has lower Evasion skill and less evasion gear, but has 3 Evasion Bonus traits that will partially make up for the lower skill, gear, and mambo (are there any tests done on how much +evasion mambos provide?). Obviously, DNC can heal and Drain Samba to an extent to make up for the RDM's healing. The only thing that's seriously missing is Haste (and enfeebles if not NIN/DNC), but if I recall correctly, a NIN on mambo will rarely need to use Utsusemi: Ichi, so I think the lack of haste shouldn't be that big a deal. I would think a DNC can get 65 TP much faster than Charybdis gets 100TP (mainly through Reverse Flourish since Charybis will get about 60% more TP through the static +3 TP gain on being hit). Charybdis will also get hits in every now and then, but there's Drain Samba to factor in as well, so I think a DNC should be able to keep up with the healing.

Some trade offs for NIN/DNC over DNC/NIN:
- enfeebles
- better gear choice
- weaker heals
- weaker drain samba
- no reverse flourish
- slightly more evasion? (and 1 more shadow on Ni)

Did I miss anything important that makes this infeasible?

[Graiza]

I'd think nin/dnc + brd/whm could duo pretty easilly, nin decks out in evasion gear and sports some melody+1 earrings and brd drops the mambos, in concept sounds solid at least.

I dont know for sure (never tested it), but think nin still trumps dnc on evasion once you add in the available gear open to each class, not to mention /dnc will boost evasion slightly.

[jibini]

Some trade offs for NIN/DNC over DNC/NIN:
- slightly more evasion? (and 1 more shadow on Ni)

Slightly less evasion.

Nin/Dnc: A- (269) skill, Evasion Bonus I (+10)
Dnc/Nin: B+ (256) skill, Evasion Bonus III (+35)

13 more skill, 25 less evasion.

[Graiza]

nin/dnc gets tier 1 evasion bonus i think as well as the enfeebles, so nin/dnc > dnc/nin on evasion, and the evasion gear for nin > dnc currently.

Then for a duo, if you're looking at them as equal, which evasively they are depending how you look at it, I'd say go with the NIN over DNC simply because of the dmg output difference, but if a dnc can hit charby with a joyeouse, that changes that a lil, but even then i dunno, I have yet to see an exceptionally impressive dancing edge from a dnc even when using flourishes.

I dunno it's all subjective anyways, and i have no intention of testing it personally lol, but with all factors involved (gear, skills, traits, spells, /ja's) I'm in favor of nin on having the edge.

[Falisa]

Curious how subbing joyeuse is from anyone with experience with it.. I've got 4 sword merits just wondering if its worth it or should I get another dagger because of the D skill?

[Shadowhusky]

Curious how subbing joyeuse is from anyone with experience with it.. I've got 4 sword merits just wondering if its worth it or should I get another dagger because of the D skill?

If you want to gain TP like mad, Joytoy. If you want to actually be an lolDD dancer, another dagger.

[Vyvian]

Noticing consistancy

I've been testing some of the other weapons out pretty thoroughly with my friends, I've noticed the following trend:

Weapon Skills who's primary SC possibility (removing L2 possibilities) is Impaction, can be used to close Fusion on Wild Flourish. Weapon skill's who's primary would be Reverberation, can close to make Fragmentation.

SCs who's primary possibilty is Impaction: (Wild Flourish -> any of these = Fusion)
Shield Break, Armor Break, Weapon Break, Shining Strike, Seraph Strike, Judgment, Combo, Raging Fists, Leg Sweep, Heavy Swing, Rock Crusher, Flat Blade.

SCs who's primary possibility is Reverberation: (Wild Flourish -> any of these = Fragmentation)
Piercing Arrow, Sidewinder, Sturmwind, Brainshaker, Shadowstitch, Shoulder Tackle, Blade: Teki, Tachi: Koki, Tachi: Gekko, Split Shot, Slug Shot, Vorpal Thrust, Dark Harvest, Spinning Scythe, Circle Blade, Shockwave.

SE has said Wild Flourish represents all L1 element possibilties at once, but says Gravitation and Distortion is not possible to make with it. It almost implies that there is an order it tries elements, and uses the first L1 element possibility that works. Maybe like a Strong to Weak element order, starting with fire. Fire > Ice > Wind > Earth > Lightning > Water, then Light or Dark.

Fusion is Fire (Liquefaction) -> Lightning (Impaction), so if Fire is first, all impaction L1 scs would make Fusion.

Fragmentation is Ice (Induration) -> Water (Reverberation), so if Ice is second, all reverberation L1 SCs would make Fragmentation.

Gravitation is is Air (Detonation) -> Dark (Compression), but air is 3rd, and all Compression WSs would pair with Induration before Detonation and fail to make Gravitation.

Distortion is Light (Transfixion) -> Earth (Scission), but Light is the last element chosen, and all Scission WSs would pair with Liquefaction or Detonation before Transfixion and fail to make Distortion.

[Graiza]

Curious how subbing joyeuse is from anyone with experience with it.. I've got 4 sword merits just wondering if its worth it or should I get another dagger because of the D skill?

Using a joy would most likely be for playing around and campaign, even with sword merits, supp. and torque, dont see the skill you'd get from that being worth it, it'd still be lower than your dagger skill. Granted you'd be able to hit with it like that. Personally i'd think dual dagger torque and dagger merits would be better, since that way you're DMG (if you do tht is boosted) and you have a more stable accuracy.

[Talrandir]

Noticing consistency

I did some Wild Flourish testing when I hit level 60, and I came to about the same conclusion: Wild Flourish initiates a skillchain that depends on the highest-priority level 1 effect of the closing weaponskill. If the closing weaponskill has no level 1 effect (e.g., Shark Bite, Mercy Stroke), no skillchain occurs.

• Closing with Liquefaction = Liquefaction[/*:m:zyqlfssm]
• Closing with Scission = Scission[/*:m:zyqlfssm]
• Closing with Reverberation = Fragmentation[/*:m:zyqlfssm]
• Closing with Detonation = Detonation[/*:m:zyqlfssm]
• Closing with Induration = Induration[/*:m:zyqlfssm]
• Closing with Impaction = Fusion[/*:m:zyqlfssm]
• Closing with Transfixion = Transfixion[/*:m:zyqlfssm]
• Closing with Compression = Compression[/*:m:zyqlfssm]

This was back before the information from SE, but it was pretty clear that Wild Flourish was acting as most/all level 1 effects at the same time, so I started working up an element order to explain the results. There are multiple possible orders, but weekday order and elemental weakness order (unless you cram Transfixion and Compression into the middle of the list) don't work.

It was only later as I was testing to try to refine the order that I realized that Wild Flourish is weird: Wild Flourish was always creating a result from the highest-priority level 1 closing effect, never from a second- or third-priority effect. This is backwards from a normal weaponskill-to-weaponskill skillchain, where the list of closing possibilities is exhausted before moving to the next opening possibility. Otherwise Sidewinder > Spinning Axe would be Sidewinder B Transfixion > Spinning Axe B Scission for Distortion rather than Sidewinder A Reverberation > Spinning Axe C Impaction for Impaction.

So if I'm correct on this (feel free to flame/correct me if not), the order of elements in Wild Flourish is moot, and the only thing that matters is what the highest-priority level 1 effect of the closer is, and what Wild Flourish produces from that.


Talrandir

[Vyvian]

The element order was more my trying to rationalize WHY fusion and fragmentation are possible, and Distortion and Gravitation are not.

A Strong to weak order does work, if you put Transfixion and Compression last in the order, to explain this, as long as you decide that Liquefaction is first.

If you were to decide wild flourish represents SCs in the order:
Liquefaction > Induration > Detonation > Scission > Impaction > Reverberation > Transfixion > Compression.

All Impaction weapon skills who's first option for a SC is that, like you mentioned, can close off of:Liquefaction WS, Detonation WS, Reverberation WS or Induration WS. My order above Implies that Liquefaction would always be chosen first, causing Wild Flourish -> Impaction to always be Fusion.

All Reverberation WS, who's first option (A choice) is that, can close off of: Scission, Induration, and Transfixion. But going down the list above, Liquefaction doesn't work, so it skips that, Induration is second, and Induration -> Reverberation is Fragmentation.

Compression WS can pair with induration detonation and transfixion, Compression needs to close off of detonation to make Gravitation, but Induration would be chosen first, so you get Compression.

And Distortion requires Scission to close off of Transfixion, but it will instead pair with Liquefaction, the first option, and not make distortion.

Does it matter? Probably not to most people, but its an explanation as to why it works the way it does. I always like to understand the details of how stuff works when its possible. I did originally say that its based off of each WS's primary choice, its (A) choice in this case. Sometimes that actually makes weaker possibilities, there are some WS that have a (B) choice in reverberation and will actually favor a different element just to make an L1 instead.

[astrael]

Does it matter? Probably not to most people, but its an explanation as to why it works the way it does. I always like to understand the details of how stuff works when its possible. I did originally say that its based off of each WS's primary choice, its (A) choice in this case. Sometimes that actually makes weaker possibilities, there are some WS that have a (B) choice in reverberation and will actually favor a different element just to make an L1 instead.

Coincidentally, this lack of information has been driving me crazy on all sites I could find, and so I had been doing the same tests. It seems like it may be "understood" by high level DNC and overlooked as obvious, but I updated the BGwiki tonight to illustrate my findings on Wild Flourish's element priorities. If anything, it helps me to plan ahead for making skillchains with other party members.

Edit: Just to make it clear, I had been working on this priority list for awhile now (note the history on my user page on BGwiki), since I'm a lurker normally I was waiting for someone else to come edit the page

[Not Kuno]

Ty for updating the wiki. :3

[Talrandir]

A Strong to weak order does work, if you put Transfixion and Compression last in the order, to explain this, as long as you decide that Liquefaction is first.

You're right; that's very cool. I'm a dork for missing that.

What I'm most concerned about though is the way that Wild Flourish doesn't behave like a normal weaponskill. If you use that order, or use the great wiki update that Astrael made, it would look like Wild Flourish > Shoulder Tackle (Reverberation/Impaction) is Fusion (using Wild Flourish's A element and Shoulder Tackle's B element), but in fact it's Fragmentation (using Wild Flourish's B element and Shoulder Tackle's A element).

Would a note need to be added to the wiki page about that, or am I not understanding something about the way normal skillchains work?


Talrandir

[astrael]

What I'm most concerned about though is the way that Wild Flourish doesn't behave like a normal weaponskill. If you use that order, or use the great wiki update that Astrael made, it would look like Wild Flourish > Shoulder Tackle (Reverberation/Impaction) is Fusion (using Wild Flourish's A element and Shoulder Tackle's B element), but in fact it's Fragmentation (using Wild Flourish's B element and Shoulder Tackle's A element).

Would a note need to be added to the wiki page about that, or am I not understanding something about the way normal skillchains work?

Good question, I thought I knew the answer to that when you posed it but now I'm not so sure. I had made the assumption that it checks the opening WS vs. closing WS going down the list of the opening WS's elements until it finds a skillchain (in normal skillchains, I am assuming that, if it finds no match vs. closing WS's "A" element, then it restarts the list checking vs. closing WS's "B" element, and then "C" element in worst cases)

Just now I was looking at Aden's Renkei Chart for a case of skillchain B > A taking priority over A > B, and there's not many combinations to check this out on. The only skillchain I could find that matches this scenario is Flaming Arrow > Circle Blade, where, Flaming Arrow (Liquefaction, Transfixion) to Circle Blade (Reverberation, Impaction), where A to A is no skillchain, A to B is Fusion, and B to A is Reverberation. If that skillchain is Fusion, then I need to add the note you suggested to the wiki, if it is Reverberation, then Wild Flourish is operating just like I assumed... the problem is that's not a very commonly used skillchain so I just don't know the answer offhand. Give me a few minutes and I'll check it out with my RNG friend and add an edit to this post.

Edit: Ok, it was Fusion, so you were right. I need to add a note that it only checks the closing WS's "A"/primary element and ignores any others. Thanks for pointing that out!

[Vyvian]

I'm going to agree with Tal, that Wild Flourish can't be 100% described like other skillchains for the reason he originally mentions, instead of exhausting the WS potentials for the first side, its entirely based on the order for what closes.

Its almost as if you have to assume that WS with A, B (or even C in some cases), only have their A choice and nothing else.

Shoulder Tackle is going to stick with its primary choice, Reverberation, so as it cycles through potential SCs..
Liquefaction -> Reverberation = nothing, so that's skipped,
Induration -> Reverberation = Fragmentation ... ok go with that.

The only additional note to make when looking at the chart to figure this out, is WSNM weapon skills + Tachi: Gekko you have to exclude their L2 possibility, and view the chart as if their L1 choice is their primary possibility.

Tachi: Gekko is Distortion/Reverberation, so you rule out distortion, and it behaves as Reverberation, and will close fragmentation off of Wild Flourish.

[astrael]

Trying to make a wiki entry all-inclusive is a pain

I had already noted in the wiki that it won't work with a level 2 or 3 skillchain element, but I added the note that it only works with the primary element of the closing WS, which could be confusing if people are just skimming the entry in the case of level 2/3 WSes like your example Tachi: Gekko. I updated the note at the bottom of the skillchain chart but not entirely happy with the phrasing of it, so I'll try to come up with something a little more clear, but thanks Vyvian and again Tal for pointing out my oversight.