Dancer discussion

[astrael]

I'm just trying to figure something else out now and I didn't find this mentioned anywhere: today I used tuna sushi (CHR+5) at the end of my xp party in Caederva Mire, and noticed a dramatic increase (as in from 0% to over 50%) in the stun proc rate of Violent Flourish without using Stutter Step... amnesia makes it hard to do things with any real planning. I know that there was luck involved or S-E's random number generator doing silly things since it was only a difference of 5 CHR but it did get me thinking, since it's widely accepted that Stutter Step/magic resist down increases the proc rate of stuns, that Violent Flourish would use one of the three magic based stats (INT, MND, CHR) as a base magic accuracy in the first place, and well, this is a CHR-based job so it's probably a no-brainer.

Has anyone else noticed stacking CHR gear or using CHR food increasing their stun success rate with Violent Flourish (or even Desperate Flourish) before I do any more tests? It could help explain why Violent Flourish's stun is more accurate vs. Toughs, Even matches, or weaker (where it is almost 100% reliable). I just find it hard to believe that level difference alone is the only factor, especially if Stutter Step affects success.

[Mikayla]

I'm just trying to figure something else out now and I didn't find this mentioned anywhere: today I used tuna sushi (CHR+5) at the end of my xp party in Caederva Mire, and noticed a dramatic increase (as in from 0% to over 50%) in the stun proc rate of Violent Flourish without using Stutter Step... amnesia makes it hard to do things with any real planning. I know that there was luck involved or S-E's random number generator doing silly things since it was only a difference of 5 CHR but it did get me thinking, since it's widely accepted that Stutter Step/magic resist down increases the proc rate of stuns, that Violent Flourish would use one of the three magic based stats (INT, MND, CHR) as a base magic accuracy in the first place, and well, this is a CHR-based job so it's probably a no-brainer.

Has anyone else noticed stacking CHR gear or using CHR food increasing their stun success rate with Violent Flourish (or even Desperate Flourish) before I do any more tests? It could help explain why Violent Flourish's stun is more accurate vs. Toughs, Even matches, or weaker (where it is almost 100% reliable). I just find it hard to believe that level difference alone is the only factor, especially if Stutter Step affects success.

I've never seen any correlation between Steps/Flourishes and CHR, and I use Tuna Sushi pretty much full time when I use ACC food, simply because the +CHR is useful for Waltzes. I never noticed any differences in step accuracy and Violent proc rate between when I went from Panther Mask to Walahra Turban at 75, and I've spent months now at 75 playing around with stuff.

I don't suppose it's impossible, since I've never really been forced to spam Violent in a party like you would against Imps, but I think with all the CHR testing that went on a while back, someone would've noticed something like this earlier. I suppose if you could parse a wide enough sample size to show that CHR positively effected Stun proc on Violent, it'd be a step in the right direction.

[Tomiko]

I am a newer DNC and interested in making the job the best it can be. I was wondering about Violent Flourish. I read that people seem to notice a difference in Acc after Stutter step. A friend of mine that is 75dnc said they noticed the same effect when boosting Att. Both may be a coincidence in my mind as I have not seen actual testing for either case. Has anyone else noticed a change based on att? She did this by using meat and /war for straight Att boost no acc outside of her normal gear and claimed a noticeable increase in the amount of times the monster would be stunned. I am unaware as to what monster the test was carried out on. - Also wow lots of cool little graphic things to choose from when you make a post ^^

Sounds like a placebo effect to me. Stutter and +acc sounds like the best bet to landing stun.

I doubt it's a placebo.

I'm currently exping in Mire at 67. I was rarelly getting stun procs from Violent Flourish, then I decided to try Stutter Step out just to see if it would help.

Since I started using Stutter Step, I've landed 10/11 Stun Procs, with only the last one I just did not procing.

Even if it's just a minor increase, Magic Acc obviously plays a part in the Stun Procs in my book.

Edit: Maybe it was just a lucky streak, I haven't had any stun procs since I posted this

[Falisa]

Curious how subbing joyeuse is from anyone with experience with it.. I've got 4 sword merits just wondering if its worth it or should I get another dagger because of the D skill?

Replying to myself. At 72 DNC now and... :nikkei: my joyeuse. I only use 2 dagger if im fighting something really evasive. Did a bird merit pt and I was having no problem at 71.

[Bakthi]

I don't really like Joyeuse on mamools, especially THF and NIN ones (of course). I feel like enough of the offhand hits miss that I may as well have equipped a dagger (I got a Cobra Knife as it's the lowest delay one we can use). It does just great in Campaign Battle and on Puks; haven't had a chance to try it on Greater Colibri. I do have a Suppa, but no sword merits.

[kenshyn]

offhand Joytoy + 8 sword merits + suppa + fort torque = <3 :nikkei: :nikkei: :nikkei: :nikkei:

I am working on that atm so far at 71 with sushi acc isn't an issue and tp gain is off the hook with my joytoy which is one of the fastest tp gaining and highest dps weapons we can use by far in a dnc hands is highly effective.

[Kaeko]

Here's some enmity information for you DNCs...

Quick Step - 1 CE | 0 VE

Drain Samba - 1 CE | 300 VE
Aspir Samba - 1 CE | 300 VE

Spectral Jig - 1 CE | 300 VE

Animated Flourish (Single Charged) - 1 CE | 1500 VE

Tests were conducted using a RDM75/DNC29

Also updated this in the Enmity Table in my Blog. I suspect all Sambas are 1/300 while all steps are 1/0. Very odd on steps since it means they basically grant no hate.

[Shadowhusky]

Quick question. I'm not 71+ yet (65 at the moment). But I was planning on dual wielding Behemoth Knife +1 when I hit 70. Now I've been also looking at Jambiya x2 as another option. My question is, does the +2 more damage from the Jambiya's add up to more damage over time instead of the +20 attack from BH+1 x2?

I don't want to hear anything about using a joytoy or any other daggers. That's not what I'm asking.

[Cylo]

Sneak Attack seems to stack with steps and Fourishes I.
Trying to do some testing to see if sneak attack gives extremely high accuracy on these JA's as I would assume.

[Shadowhusky]

Sneak Attack seems to stack with steps and flourishes I.
Trying to do some testing to see if sneak attack gives extremely high accuracy on these JA's as I would assume.

SA never misses (Assuming you're behind the mob). It's single one hit crit. Steps and flourishes are also a single hit. So naturally they stack with SA.

[Cylo]

OK but I didn't expect Stutter step to be 100% on stun procs... it seems like it is when stacked with SA. Just surprised me.

[Mikayla]

Quick question. I'm not 71+ yet (65 at the moment). But I was planning on dual wielding Behemoth Knife +1 when I hit 70. Now I've been also looking at Jambiya x2 as another option. My question is, does the +2 more damage from the Jambiya's add up to more damage over time instead of the +20 attack from BH+1 x2?

I don't want to hear anything about using a joytoy or any other daggers. That's not what I'm asking.

I found Behemoth knives to be the better option over Jambiya.

[Shadowhusky]

OK but I didn't expect Stutter step to be 100% on stun procs... it seems like it is when stacked with SA. Just surprised me.

Uh, do you mean when you landed sutter step that the proc rate on VF landed more?

[Cylo]

oops no I meant violent flourish instead of stutter step

Edit: I repeatedly built up 5 finishing moves, then equipped a warp cudgel... Violent Flourish stunned my target every time with SA, and usually missed without SA.

[Toth]

Hey guys,

I am about to hit 37 within the next two days and I have a question for you veteran DNCs:

Does the job become less tedious and more well-rounded in later levels?

While I am having fun leveling it, I'm finding that the low output of my melee (even with the best daggers) and pathetic weaponskills (34 Viper Bites...) makes me feel like I am cheating my party. In my parties, I tend to lead off with DSII and then alternate Quickstep and Boxstep until they are each level 2/3. I also toss out cures if needed but most parties still invite DNCs WHMs and RDMs together so I usually have a surplus of TP. I would like to use this TP for an occasional WS but the abysmal damage of WSes have not helped kill speeds. Do our WSes and overall damage ever improve as we level (and get access to the higher level flourishes that enhance skillchains and weapnskills) or should I resign myself to the notion that DNCs will never be an effective melee for parties and our role is mostly support and healing?

I'm getting the vibe that if I want to be a melee support, I should continue my COR 36 instead.

[Cylo]

Later on in levels players rely on me more for curing duty and even less for damage dealing.
Typical parties are now:

3DD's and a tank or 4 DD's with blink
1 RDM or WHM
Me

I handle the majority of curing duty occaisional status removal, keep haste samba up, and constantly stepping / reverse flourishes to keep up TP. RDM / WHM is on haste/refresh and regens and backup cures. When I am in charge of curing, I never use TP for weaponskills... I hold it till there is a rough fight or two. TP curing is so much more effecient than MP curing, and it allows for little to no downtime.

If I am NOT curing for whatever reason... I am almost a waste of space. dancing edge, wild flourish and such are nice but I can't pump out the damage a good WAR or SAM can.

When I party I am busy busy busy, always using job abilities through the whole fight.

Btw... Caedarva Mire sucks ass, go to Bibiki Bay instead.

[Mikayla]

DNC can be more or less healing intensive depending on the party setup, but more often than not, you'll end up falling into the more support heavy role most of the time. I prefer COR more for the DD angle, to be honest. DNC is a heck of a lot of fun at higher levels, it's never a boring job in parties, you're always doing something.

Granted, the job is borderline useless in big HNM situations, because it's hurt badly by it's inability to cure outside of party. DNC is a fun job, but ultimately the only times I use it is to solo or in campaign, so if you're looking for the most bang for your buck, level COR.

[Shadowhusky]

Hey guys,

I am about to hit 37 within the next two days and I have a question for you veteran DNCs:

Does the job become less tedious and more well-rounded in later levels?

While I am having fun leveling it, I'm finding that the low output of my melee (even with the best daggers) and pathetic weaponskills (34 Viper Bites...) makes me feel like I am cheating my party. In my parties, I tend to lead off with DSII and then alternate Quickstep and Boxstep until they are each level 2/3. I also toss out cures if needed but most parties still invite DNCs WHMs and RDMs together so I usually have a surplus of TP. I would like to use this TP for an occasional WS but the abysmal damage of WSes have not helped kill speeds. Do our WSes and overall damage ever improve as we level (and get access to the higher level flourishes that enhance skillchains and weapnskills) or should I resign myself to the notion that DNCs will never be an effective melee for parties and our role is mostly support and healing?

I'm getting the vibe that if I want to be a melee support, I should continue my COR 36 instead.

Honestly from my experiances (66 right now), I'm just sitting around most of the time doing nothing. Throw up DS3 and box step all the time and just sit there. From time to time I'll throw out a building flourish and a DE but that's about it. Most of the parties I end up in invite a rdm or whm to heal.

[Bakthi]

In most of my parties, we had an outside 75 RDM, and then later (like in the late 60s) someone from our LS joined as RDM so our SCH could a) have Refresh, and b) stop 2-boxing. The 2-boxed RDM would just haste and sometimes toss cures; the in-party one would just do haste, status cures, and debuffs, and an occasional cure, but I did almost all of the curing. The SCH just nuked. This even when we exp'd for long stretches with no real tank (RDM SCH DNC SAM BST). I would use DE sometimes, especially on berserked Catoblepas, but I always made sure I had 5 finishing moves ready to Reverse Flourish so that I could immediately cure if necessary (I almost never used Building Flourish). I would vary the sambas depending on what was going on; I even got to use Aspir Samba on the 2 occasions we had a PLD.

I enjoyed DNC to 75, but I guess if you have a mage in your party and they won't stand back and let you cure and try to make the most of doing other stuff, it could suck. I imagine there are a lot of WHMs and RDMs out there that probably just can't wrap their head around not being the main healer with no other back-line mages in the party, which would leave a DNC without enough to do.

I would definitely say that COR is, in general, a more useful job to have at 75 than DNC. DNC is an awesome sub right now, but at 75, not such an amazing main (aside from solo stuff and campaign battle, and things like WAR/DNC even seem to get more points there). And if you want a support DD, that's COR. DNC really is a front-line healer with some interesting debuffs; the fact that they melee doesn't really mean they're a DD.

[Toth]

Thank you all for your opinions. I believe I have the answer I was looking for :D I'll just wait until the next update to see what changes the job will go through.