Dancer discussion

[Klain]

Haste Samba does NOT interfere with x-hit builds, all it is is Haste +5-10% for physical attacks.

Where are people still getting this from?

[Deeke]

Yep. It's exactly like Hasso's 'haste'. I think it's just a knock-on effect from when DNC came out and the Haste Samba effect was described by some specifically as a 'delay-reduction'. Wrong, but shit can be sticky.

(By the way, just for the sake of filling in a gap in my knowledge: Hasso and Haste Samba's +physical attack speed.... as they are both 'job ability haste', do they stack with each other?)

[Klain]

Yeah, Hasso and Haste Samba stack.

[Fluid]

I always thought Haste samba was factored after other forms of haste were applied - sort of like Sword Strap, minus the TP reduction. Is that true, or is it additive the same way that hasso is?

20% equip haste + 10% haste samba = 30% haste

or

20% equip haste * 10% haste samba = 28% haste

?

[Tsutsumiko]

Decisions, decisions....

So what shall we go with for DNC Tier 2 Merits? I'm torn cause all 4 of them seem to be really really good. Testing would need to be done on merits like Saber Dance before we can really know if they're worth the points. But honestly, all 4 of the ones announced appear to be really really good.

I'm thinking probably 3 in Saber, 3 in Fan, 1 in No Foot Rise, 3 in the last one? It's just too difficult to pick ; ;

Any suggestions?
Edit: I forgot max total is 10, not 6 lol

[astrael]

It's hard to say without knowing the base recast timers and durations for each of these new Job Abilities (or if merits affect strength of the dances or recast timers), but I'd probably say No Foot Rise capped could be the most useful for general-purpose DNC since it would benefit every aspect of the job (especially with capped Reverse Flourish)

Since Sabre Dance seems geared toward full DD (no healing allowed but stacked with Haste Samba would be nice) and Fan Dance geared toward a tanking option(enmity+ and damage reduction), I guess it's just your preference on how you play the job... Closed Position sounds like it goes hand-in-hand with Fan Dance for more enmity generation with bonus accuracy/evasion in Overwhelm style (since you'll be fighting head on as tank).

It's funny they added a tool to DNC for tanking right when I was just saying last week to my Salvage static "you know, I bet S-E wanted DNC to be able to tank" and started picking up enmity gear to try it out. But it seems like looking at Group 1 and 2 merits together, DNC is one of the few jobs you can really go all out either way but not both effectively.

My opinion is if you merited Building Flourish in G1, go with Sabre Dance full and Closed Position + Foot Rise mix depending on timers, don't even bother with Fan Dance (or just put 1 in it if you want to have all available). I did Haste Samba, Reverse Flourish full, I think those two will work really well with the two enmity generating G2's with cooldown timers, so I'm going to try Fan Dance + Closed Position and see if it works or not as well as I hoped, probably 5 Fan, 3 Closed, 1 Sabre and 1 Foot ideally. If tanking doesn't work out I'll end up with the "DD" set. If you merited Step Accuracy to full, you probably are a healing minded DNC and could really do Foot Rise 5 and a mix of the two TP generating G2's for the rest, that way you'll always have access to TP for heals and debuffs even on HNM you can't melee.

[Talint]

No Foot Rise seems to have the most potential to offer, depending on the timer and how low the ability can be merited.

The rest will just have to be wait and see. If the double attack dance is for the self only, then I don't know how useful it will be. I offhand a Joyeuse, so I wouldn't use it for TP. It might free up a subjob choice or two for endgame stuff to help with TP generation, but it in of itself wouldn't help bring the job to endgame events.

It's funny they added a tool to DNC for tanking right when I was just saying last week to my Salvage static "you know, I bet S-E wanted DNC to be able to tank" and started picking up enmity gear to try it out. But it seems like looking at Group 1 and 2 merits together, DNC is one of the few jobs you can really go all out either way but not both effectively.

I thought the same about tanking until you look at The Dancer Enmity Table. Even for the things on record, all the stuff is volatile, and probably is save for the waltzes; moreover the silly need to have flourishes to provoke.

[astrael]

Wow, Saber Dance lasts the full 5 minutes, only reason to merit this is to have a faster method to reapply if you need to turn it off for curing/refreshing DA rate? I hope Fan Dance works the same way (and the damage reduction is strong), the Double Attack rate is really generous on normal rounds and WS for Saber Dance.

Must say I'm a little surprised how No Foot Rise works (1 level = 1 Finishing Move, 3 min recast), but it still seems like a decent Meditate substitute.

[Tsutsumiko]

Wow, Saber Dance lasts the full 5 minutes, only reason to merit this is to have a faster method to reapply if you need to turn it off for curing/refreshing DA rate? I hope Fan Dance works the same way (and the damage reduction is strong), the Double Attack rate is really generous on normal rounds and WS for Saber Dance.

Must say I'm a little surprised how No Foot Rise works (1 level = 1 Finishing Move, 3 min recast), but it still seems like a decent Meditate substitute.

Thanks for the info. I'll test Fan Dance as soon as I log in. I have enough merits to unlock I think 3 things. I'll unlock Fan Dance for sure.

Then perhaps I'll take some parses down of my ACC vs. Colibri (perhaps 50~100 bird sample) then I'll merit Closed Position and repeat and try to see some results. Get back to you in a bit.

Edit: Is Saber Dance its own status condition? Does it stack with Fan Dance you think? I'll test that as well. Stupid update needs to go faster. Won't be on for like 30 mins ><;;

[astrael]

Yeah Saber Dance has its own unique icon, a little red ball with a sword on it... I really wish I had saved up more merits to test out Fan Dance (especially the stacking bit you brought up, but I bet they do stack, it just severly limits your abilities to just Steps and Flourishes then?)

Closed Position is +3 acc/evasion per merit according to the description, if that helps at all. Surprisingly little DNC discussion going on I noticed

[Ahnuld]

From Alla:

You cannot have both fan and saber up at the same time - the one you use automatically overrides the other.

[Tsutsumiko]

Yeah Saber Dance has its own unique icon, a little red ball with a sword on it... I really wish I had saved up more merits to test out Fan Dance (especially the stacking bit you brought up, but I bet they do stack, it just severly limits your abilities to just Steps and Flourishes then?)

Closed Position is +3 acc/evasion per merit according to the description, if that helps at all. Surprisingly little DNC discussion going on I noticed

It's cause we're the underdog class ^^b

Been playing the job since day 1 and loving it. I know it's not a great job end game (coming from a big HNM shell) but it's getting there! I'm very pleased with the new findings. Northlands runs this week for Dynamis CAN NOT COME SOON ENOUGH!

If the "Enhances 'Violent Flourish' effect" adds a large amount of ACC to the Stun effect like the AF Hands add to Steps, we're in business. Hell, even if they just beef up Violent Flourish damage by a bit, I'd be happy.

[Talint]

If the "Enhances 'Violent Flourish' effect" adds a large amount of ACC to the Stun effect like the AF Hands add to Steps, we're in business. Hell, even if they just beef up Violent Flourish damage by a bit, I'd be happy.

If it increases the stun effect that dramatically, you're looking at a stun every 15 seconds.

I dunno. I seem underwhelmed by the Dance Stances. I offhand a Joyeuse, so the need to double attack is very little with me. Fan Dance might be okay for some kind of tanking... thing, but I don't see it happening. I'll need some reports though about the physical damage negated.

No Foot Rise and Closed Position seem to be the winners.

[Toth]

From alla (and thanks to Junji of KI):

"Both fan and saber can be cancelled - just tested it :3

Fan dance seems to reduce damage by...alot - when fighting colibiri:

Without FD: around 60-80 damage a hit.

With FD: Starts off with 7 damage and gradually worked its way up to around 30-40 nearing the end of the effect. Wow ._.

Also, the effect lasts for 5 minutes - wasnt fighting during the time it was ticking down so unsure if the effect eventually degenerates like stoneskin. My guess is that meriting the timer down will either be good for refreshing fan dance to max defense or getting yer fan dance up again if it does deteriorate.

More info for you - you cannot have both fan and saber up at the same time - the one you use automatically overrides the other."

Pretty incredible abilities O.o

[Tsutsumiko]

From alla (and thanks to Junji of KI):

"Both fan and saber can be cancelled - just tested it :3

Fan dance seems to reduce damage by...alot - when fighting colibiri:

Without FD: around 60-80 damage a hit.

With FD: Starts off with 7 damage and gradually worked its way up to around 30-40 nearing the end of the effect. Wow ._.

Also, the effect lasts for 5 minutes - wasnt fighting during the time it was ticking down so unsure if the effect eventually degenerates like stoneskin. My guess is that meriting the timer down will either be good for refreshing fan dance to max defense or getting yer fan dance up again if it does deteriorate.

More info for you - you cannot have both fan and saber up at the same time - the one you use automatically overrides the other."

Pretty incredible abilities O.o

So can we say that it perhaps reduces Physical Damage by 90% or so (7 damage out of 70ish~) and diminishes to about... 40 or 50 by the end?

Edit: I'm getting the same Data for Fan Dance that the above poster did. I'm not getting hit for much more than 10 damage in the first 60 seconds. Around the end, my peak damage received was like 46. Usually I take 70~80 a shot.

Saber Dance with no DA items on seems a little more disappointing. Only did 1 or 2 fights with it so far but I'm getting numbers like 10 DA/50 Attack Rounds per fight~ I could test more reliably if I had a healer but at the moment it's too dangerous for me to solo alone cause I can't use JAs for this crap and my HP drops super fast cause of it :/

[astrael]

I didn't notice a huge drop in Double Attack rate without Brutal Earring, I almost forgot to reequip it at one point in my other tests lol. I wouldn't feel too bad though, I tested full Ares without any extra DA at all and in 100 attacks only got 1 DA proc, so boo S-E's random number generator (since it had to be at least 2% with legs). Still seems Saber Dance at least is usable if you're not curing, even one merit in it gives you everything you could need.

After hearing your tests on Fan Dance, I'm kicking myself for not taking it, I always wanted to DNC tank (you should see me fight for hate everytime I go out on it hehe). I wonder if it's a really strong Phalanx effect or if it's % damage reduction like sentinel? I bet testing the enmity bonus from this is going to be a pain...

Well knowing what we know now, I'd probably go 1 Saber Dance, 1-3 Fan Dance, 3 Closed Position, 3-5 No Foot Rise. We won't lose much by limiting merits of the Dances to 1 each, I just might go 3 Fan Dance to refresh the damage reduction strength a minute faster if it's strong enough since 3 FM every 3 minutes is still plenty of TP fully merited with Reverse Flourish.

I'm pretty happy with the job especially now, and I don't really share the opinion it can't do endgame, I just don't think it's thought of in a productive way. Most people I've run into outside of my LS just think DNC is a main healer that can't heal everyone >.> Don't think people are even aware or fully acknowledge it can debuff for the entire alliance/instance XD

[Tsutsumiko]

I didn't notice a huge drop in Double Attack rate without Brutal Earring, I almost forgot to reequip it at one point in my other tests lol. I wouldn't feel too bad though, I tested full Ares without any extra DA at all and in 100 attacks only got 1 DA proc, so boo S-E's random number generator (since it had to be at least 2% with legs). Still seems Saber Dance at least is usable if you're not curing, even one merit in it gives you everything you could need.

After hearing your tests on Fan Dance, I'm kicking myself for not taking it, I always wanted to DNC tank (you should see me fight for hate everytime I go out on it hehe). I wonder if it's a really strong Phalanx effect or if it's % damage reduction like sentinel? I bet testing the enmity bonus from this is going to be a pain...

Well knowing what we know now, I'd probably go 1 Saber Dance, 1-3 Fan Dance, 3 Closed Position, 3-5 No Foot Rise. We won't lose much by limiting merits of the Dances to 1 each, I just might go 3 Fan Dance to refresh the damage reduction strength a minute faster if it's strong enough since 3 FM every 3 minutes is still plenty of TP fully merited with Reverse Flourish.

I'm pretty happy with the job especially now, and I don't really share the opinion it can't do endgame, I just don't think it's thought of in a productive way. Most people I've run into outside of my LS just think DNC is a main healer that can't heal everyone >.> Don't think people are even aware or fully acknowledge it can debuff for the entire alliance/instance XD

You're right. I think we just need to change people's minds about how the job is played. Right now, I'm inclined to agree with your merit spread.

I plan
5 NFR
3 Closed
1 Saber
1 Fan

However this might change cause I've been having fun with a "Tempo"~ish style of soloing right now. You throw up Haste Samba and Saber Dance and let them have it. You literally rip through birds. Then when you get low on health, you Fan Dance into a defensive build to recoup damage with Waltzes (while still keeping up Haste Samba) until Saber Dance is back up, then you switch back into Saber Dance and continue to rip through birds (My XP/HR is a lot higher than usual when soloing with this type of attack strategy).

Perhaps it may be best to do 3 in Saber rather than Fan but it's still early. At least 3 NFR and 3 Closed Position are no brainers. The other 4 are entirely up in the air I feel.

[Flippant]

No Foot Rise seems the best in my opinion, but pointless unless taken at least to 3, like stated above. I plan to do:

5 No Foot Rise
at least 1 Fan Dance
and the other four merits would depend on how good Saber Dance really is

Has anyone else done a bit more testing on Saber? 20% doesn't seem that bad, but the fact that it decays on top of that makes it seem not worthwhile (might as well stick with joy). As for Closed Position though, I don't really have any problem with accuracy unless I'm meriting on DNC and forgot my sushi or something (both situations being highly unlikely). So for me, Closed Position is if Saber Dance isn't very good.

[Toth]

You're right. I think we just need to change people's minds about how the job is played. Right now, I'm inclined to agree with your merit spread.

I plan
5 NFR
3 Closed
1 Saber
1 Fan

However this might change cause I've been having fun with a "Tempo"~ish style of soloing right now. You throw up Haste Samba and Saber Dance and let them have it. You literally rip through birds. Then when you get low on health, you Fan Dance into a defensive build to recoup damage with Waltzes (while still keeping up Haste Samba) until Saber Dance is back up, then you switch back into Saber Dance and continue to rip through birds (My XP/HR is a lot higher than usual when soloing with this type of attack strategy).

Perhaps it may be best to do 3 in Saber rather than Fan but it's still early. At least 3 NFR and 3 Closed Position are no brainers. The other 4 are entirely up in the air I feel.

Completely agree with that style of playing. Saber Dance should really only be one merit anyway since its more of a DD mode for TPburns and merit parties rather than party situations.

[Flippant]

Meeh, Fan Dance might be useful for soloing easier mobs, but it decays incredibly fast against hard-hitting monsters.

Tried to solo Purple, the New Black just to get a better idea of how Fan Dance works. Damage taken:
11
33
53
60
60
36
140
106
134
134
96
133
220(crit)
112
126
159
149
112
160
(took fan dance off at this point because I got petrified and was obviously going to die)
104
203
152

In maybe three minutes (less than four for sure). So even fully merited, this has its limitations. Still looks like a Campaigning job to me~