Parser Results: Put em here!

[RKenshin]

If you're counting his total haste with all the gear listed in his equipment screen + a speed belt, then yeah it's 21%. But the set of gear I was referring to was specifically what he had in the screen shot, which would put him at 15% equipment haste + 10% from Catastrophe, along with 10% magic haste. No haste wasted other than like 3% magic haste.

If he kept his gear the same while using speed belt however, he could easily stand to swap in some better DD gear for something like the Walahra Turban. But we don't really know as to whether he did that or not.

[Duwie]

-the drk ...... and has a speed belt for when it ran out of charges(towards the end of the second parse)

Reason why i was asking since he could use some alt gear instead of haste to maximize the effect of his add effect

[underscore]

quote the whole thing lol, there's a reason i said he was "messing around" with it

anyway, needs more multiple relic parses

-edit:
to add a little bit, he doesn't need "alt gear instead of haste to maximize the effect of his add effect" because has everything a drk would need, and was testing the "full haste without sv" drk build that you should be familiar with by now. what he did after the belt ran out minimally affected the parse because i stopped soon after. i think i was fair in expecting you guys to know that someone that would have armadaberk, dusk+1, speed belt, relic would know what they're doing.

actually now that i read it again i even said that he was doing exactly that(testing haste build) in the same line you quoted

oh and if people were curious it really does work, he put up drain spikes and last resort and a couple of times killed a colibri solo before spikes wore out

[Duwie]

I was having a tought time understanding why my question was being recieved this way so I looked it up and lol... thought duration was shorter and recast was much longer I guess i should play around with that myself if I can sneak myself into a pt as drk instead of sam ;x. I thought he did last resort + haste.. go to town then switch to something else once it wore off or w/e, anyways my bad :E. See, its not always safe to assume that someone with rare/expensive shit would know what they're doing since I fit the bill and I didnt in this occasion.

Anyways, was looking at ruke's parse and I'm assuming had he used hasso from the start, amano would have outdoted apocalypse? I always thought that even though the sam would have less haste, you're delay is lower and at the end of the day it would net the sam more hits. This is assuming berserk > last resort/souleater. I had to pick between the two so this topic intrigues me ;x

[Duwie]

I was having a tought time understanding why my question was being recieved this way so I looked it up and lol... thought duration was shorter and recast was much longer I guess i should play around with that myself if I can sneak myself into a pt as drk instead of sam ;x. I thought he did last resort + haste.. go to town then switch to something else once it wore off or w/e, anyways my bad :E. See, its not always safe to assume that someone with rare/expensive shit would know what they're doing since I fit the bill and I didnt in this occasion.

Anyways, was looking at ruke's parse and I'm assuming had he used hasso from the start, amano would have outdoted apocalypse? I always thought that even though the sam would have less haste, you're delay is lower and, at the end of the day it would net the sam more hits. This is assuming berserk > last resort/souleater. I had to pick between the two so this topic intrigues me ;x

[Darkwill]

Attacking from the sides works too right?

Yes. Granite Skin is approximatively 180 degrees so just exit that and you can still damage it. Like Waffik said though,it kicks (acting like a counter, not a normal attack) so it hurts if you can't TE it or are /nin.

[RKenshin]

Anyways, looking at Ruke's parse if he has used Hasso from the start, would Amano out-DoT Apocalypse? I always thought that even though the SAM would have less haste, your delay is lower and at the end of the day it would net the SAM more hits. This is assuming berserk > last resort/souleater. I had to pick between the two so this topic intrigues me ;x

I didn't understand what you were asking at first, but corrected it so it's a little more clear (or at least my interpretation of it).

It's hard to say for sure without doing some math to figure out which combination gets the largest number of swings over the course of a PT. I suppose I'll give it a go... long math post gogo.

Assuming that both have Marchx2, Haste spell, and Hasso on full-time, with the Amano SAM using 21% in haste gear and the Apoc DRK using 25% in haste gear, the math looks like this:
SAM:
- 437 base delay.
- Apply 66% haste.
- ~148 adjusted delay.

DRK:
- 513 base delay.
- Apply 70% haste.
- ~154 adjusted delay.

So if you base it purely on delay, SAM should barely get more hits. However it's not that simple since you have to account for DA, Zanshin, and the use of Last Resort among other things.

Easiest way I can think of to figure this out is to calculate how many hits each combination can get in over a set amount of time. For arguments sake let's say it's over the course of an hour. Also keep in mind that this wouldn't be a realistic situation since you'd basically be beating on a single target non-stop for an hour in order to get a result like this, with no time to disengage/engage/activate JAs/WS/etc.

So, an hour would account for 60 minutes which is equal to 3600 seconds. Each second is 60 delay, so that's 216000 delay.

Over the course of 216000 delay:
SAM
- 1459 swings.
DRK
- 1402 swings.

17% chance to DA for SAM, 7% chance to DA for DRK:
SAM
- 1707 swings.
DRK
- 1500 swings.

As far as I know Zanshin is the same bonus whether it's SAM main or SJ, so I'm leaving that factor out. It's a little too complicated to apply mathematically anyway.

Using Last Resort the second it's ready every time it's ready will net about 28 seconds of 85% haste for DRK (28 seconds to account for the stupid JA delay). Over the course of an hour, you're going to get 12 uses of Last Resort for a total of 336 seconds it will be active.

Before doing the math for that, I have to subtract 336 seconds worth of swings from the previous swing count so I'm not double counting over the same period of time. 336 seconds of swings is 20160 delay of swings, for about 131 swings in that time. Resulting in this adjustment:
DRK
- 1369 swings.

Now, adding the swings from when Last Resort is active. Once again we have 20160 delay to work with, and the adjust DRK delay with Desperate Blows in use is now ~77. Adding a total of 261 swings:
DRK
- 1630 swings.

The final result after applying 95% accuracy is:
SAM
- 1621 swings.
DRK
- 1548 swings.


So under the listed near-perfect conditions for both the DRK and the SAM, a SAM should still get a higher number of swings over the course of a PT (a little under 1% more). Last Resort merits may level the playing field (don't feel like trying to figure out of it does) but from what I've seen most DRKs either don't have them or still wait to use it with Souleater (and I'm too lazy to figure it out now!). Regardless there's the problem that for the most part no one activates JAs the exact second their ready for an entire PT anyway.

However, for the sake of argument you could debate it's more difficult for a SAM to use Hasso full-time as opposed to DRK (but, this mostly depends on the situation).

I didn't include the possibility of haste belt either, mostly because I'm not so confident that the additional ~8% haste it provides will outweigh the time wasted from activating the belt every 3 minutes. Especially since it doesn't overwrite itself and you'll go without haste for the short time you spend before using it. In addition I didn't calculate this for the max haste setup a SAM can get, which would really be 23%.

So, there's room for outside factors and different situations to effect the final results. However I think that the balance between those two swing totals in relation to each other should remain about the same for the average situation, if not nearly all of them.




__________________________________________________ ___

EDIT: Argh, I forgot the original question was about DoT and not delay.

OK, in order to figure out DoT I have to either guess a DRK and SAM's melee averages (which would be pretty inaccurate) or I'd have to use the one from my parse on the previous page (which is rather accurate). However, if I'm using the information from the parse on the previous page I need to adjust the accuracy in the above calculations to truly represent the gear choices and their results accurately. As well as factoring in critical hit-rate/damage, relic high-damage hits, etc.

This is going to be a lot more math than I thought.

Going to work on that now, will edit when done.

__________________________________________________ ___

EDIT2: New final totals for swing count when using 87.01% acc for the SAM and 85.95% acc for the DRK are:
SAM
- 1485 swings.
DRK
- 1400 swings.

Stats for each job based on parse:
SAM
- 208 melee average.
- 3% chance for high-damage melee attack. (minus 44.55 swings for relic proc)
- 520 high-damage melee average. (23166 damage)
- 12.39% critical hit-rate. (- 183.99 swings that crit)
- 317.5 critical hit average. (58416 crit damage)
- .003717 chance for high-damage critical-hit. (- 5.52 swings that crit/relic proc)
- 793 high-damage critical-hit average. (4377 damage)
- 1251 swings left over that do normal melee damage.
DRK
- 236 melee average.
- 3% chance for high-damage melee attack. (- 41 swings for relic proc)
- 472 high-damage melee average. (19352 damage)
- 9.24% critical hit-rate. (- 129.36 swings that crit)
- 359 critical hit average. (46440 crit damage)
- .002772 change for a high-damage critical-hit. (- 3.88 swings that crit/relic proc)
- 718 high-damage critical-hit average. (2785 damage)
- 1226 swings leftover that do normal melee damage.

Resulting final damage based on the above averages and percentages should be this:
SAM
- 346167 melee damage.
DRK
- 357913 melee damage.

So, using the numbers from my parse in combination with the numbers for delay, DRK will win in DoT by a small amount (a little under 1% more). This doesn't include the regular use of Souleater obviously, since the DRK whose numbers I ganked to do this calculation didn't use much Souleater in the PT (minus when he used his 2h). This also doesn't include the ideas from the delay arguments, where you have the fact that SAM can get access to more haste and DRK could merit Last Resort. Although, the melee averages I used for this calculation are with a DRK that has Last Resort merits (as well as some use of Souleater) so it's a slight benefit to the DRK in this calculation. As well as the fact that I sure as hell wasn't using Berserk the second it was ready, so the melee average here hurts the SAM representation in these calculations too.

Honestly if all factors are included and straightened out in the most ideal situation possible for both jobs, I think the melee average would be equal if not in SAM's favor if Souleater was not used at all. With Souleater used at every chance, it would likely be in the DRK's favor by a good margin instead. This is all purely measuring melee damage though.

Feel free to check my math/logic/etc, I ran over it a few times but mistakes still happen.


In hindsight... Man, what the hell compelled me to do all this crap.

[Kirschy]

I'm kinda suprised it hasn't been mentioned... so I'll throw it out there~ Although it's not listed on Ruke's Parse, you can deduce the number of WS used. 184 for the DRK and 211 for Ruke. There was a 933 vs 1226 average difference between the two. Catastrophe is obviously weaker than Kaiten for serveral reasons. What I am mostly pondering is would a mix of Cata + Guillotine be more beneficial than just spamming cata. At what point in gear haste, does the extra damage of Guillotine outweigh the diminishing return of the haste effect from relic? It also raises, at least in my mind, questionable gear swaps to reach a higher gear haste. Turban vs Aces, and even Sniper's+1 vs Blitz. Part of the reason I wonder, is the possibility of more haste options in the future. I haven't realli been able to play around or merit in Haste/Marchx2 situations lately... and I'm interested to hear how other Apoc DRKs have found ways to improve their playstyle.

[RKenshin]

I've always kind of wondered the same; although haven't thought about it in a while until you mentioned it. It's like almost every Apoc DRK is in such a Catastrophe spam brainwash that you almost forget they still have Guillotine.

I've thought about this quite a bit about it and it always made me wonder why no one experimented with a haste build + Apoc's Guillotine, as you mentioned. Catastrophe's haste and HP drain effects are amazing, but both can be at least partially compensated for in different areas (like haste gear and cures). Without Catastrophe's haste effect you could still squeeze out a potential 22% haste, falling only 3% haste of the cap but gaining something like 200-500 damage on your WS average? It probably wouldn't be the most ideal choice if for no reason other than the fact you'd need extremely good gear to get that much haste, and the HP drain is a hard thing to pass up.

I'm actually not sure what Guillotine currently averages with decked WS gear now. Before all these patches I used to hit/break 1k easily with sushi, so I wouldn't be too surprised if an Apoc DRK eating meat after all these buffs could average in the 1200-1400 range if not more. What are people's Guillotine averages like now?

But, in any case, I think that as far as overall damage output goes... A Guillotine spam + 23% haste in gear play style may compete with if not outweigh a Catastrophe spam + 15% haste in gear play style. But, that's just a theory until someone can back it up/prove otherwise.

Or maybe I'll upgrade an Apoc and give it a try!

I wish <.<

[Duwie]

All right you're math backs up some of my thoughts, unfortunately i havent been able to party with apoc drk yet.. would like to do a 2brd 1cor pt with one sometime ;x.

[RKenshin]

That DRK and I wanted to try to get a BRD, BRD, COR, COR PT with an out PT healing us lol. Doubt it'd ever happen but it's a fun idea to play around with!