Red Mage Help

[rrynn]

i guess i just see it as a waste of *potential* mp. you never get that "extra" mp to use if you don't convert for it.

altho not resting, and not having at least a fairly decent hmp set, would be just as big of a waste.

the way i look at it, my converting/using as much mp as i have access to saves mp for other mages who lack the ability to do so and are entirely depended on refresh and resting for mp.

[levish]

Yes timing your MP like that and using it is great for merit parties (I do it myself) but on endgame bosses doing that same thing is probably somewhere around impossible.

For those endgame encounters landing a full strength/proc rate Slow II or Para II will not just save oodles of mp not just from the rdms, it'll also help tanks retain enimity and make things go much more smoothly.

[OctavoGilgamesh]

i guess i just see it as a waste of *potential* mp. you never get that "extra" mp to use if you don't convert for it.

I try to time my converts around my refresh or haste cycle. Since you change minimal gear for both of those (or at least can get an effective spell with no gear changes). Vert -> cure IVx2 -> refresh <me> -> haste <me> -> refresh <p1> -> etc etc. That is your best bet for using up the free mp off of a convert.

I must admit though, I don't remember how many times that I have decided to slow II or blizz III after a convert and changed gears down to my 750mp set, losing 250+ mp

[Gaborn]

What gear do you guys typically use to boost your mp so high? Are there pieces beyond the Zenith set that give large MP+?

[Zoot]

Pieces that don't have HP to MP converts work really well in keeping the ratio. Hume RSE2 hands, loquacious earring, beak necklace +1, a few of the +mp capes and heirarch belt to name a few.

Also +80 from merits.

Idling, converting and meriting in MP boosting gear can be beneficial, but typically you'll be gear swapping so much that only a few enhancing spells get the benefit of casting from an MP gear set at full.

[theo]

Zenith past a certain point actually hurts more than it helps because it eats up all of your HP. I just use a set of general MP and HP gear to get about 1050/1050 on my convert. Try to look for armors that increase MP without an HP penalty. Crimson gear is a good example, or Intensifying Cape.

[Seditedi]

Depends on race... Zenith hurts taru very much, but its pretty nice for elvaan.

[Gaborn]

Doing some digging through equipment during the maintenance.... What are the uses (if any) of the Goliard Saio set obtained from Nyzul Isle. I recently joined a static-ish group for this and am wondering if I should be after any pieces for Red Mage. Also please note reasons why each particular piece is or is not effective.

[Tomiko]

Removed the Job/Set Bonus stuff since it wasn't needed.

Goliard Chapeau
[Head] All Races
DEF: 20 HP +20 MP +20
MND +5 CHR +5 Enmity -4
MP recovered while healing +2

Good for Convert gear and as an HMP item if you don't have AF2 Hat.
Very nice piece for a MND setup.

Worth getting.


Goliard Saio [Body] All Races
DEF: 42 HP +42 MP +42
"Conserve MP" +5
Enmity -5 Haste +4%

Best piece in the set.

I was using AF2 body for Refresh, Haste, etc, but now this is on my list since I got Seveneyes in order to stack Conserve MP as much as I can. This will most likely be the main Body armor I wear once I get it.

Definately worth getting.

Goliard Cuffs
[Hands] All Races
DEF: 18 Accuracy +4 Attack +4
"Magic Attack Bonus" +4
Magic Accuracy +4

I'm not a fan of Magic Accuracy gear, so these don't stand out that much to me. Nice alternative to Zenith Mitts (maybe better? *shrug*), but without the MP.

lol melee Rdm

Decent piece, not gonna make or break ya.

Goliard Trews
[Legs] All Races
DEF: 35 MP +28
Physical damage taken -3%
Enmity -5
Pet: DEF +10

Don't bother, there's much better alternatives to this.
Errant/Mahatma; Zenith; Nashira; Morrigan's; Prince's; Crimson (no -Enmity, but gives mp and hp)

Goliard Clogs
[Feet] All Races
DEF: 19 DEX +4 INT +4 MND +4
CHR +4 Evasion +5
MP recovered while healing +3
Magic Accuracy +2

Good HMP and INT piece in addition to a decent MND piece. Lack of MP sucks, but the stats make up for it.

Worth getting.

Just my thoughts.
Summary: I'd use Hat, Body, Feet out of the set.

[Gaborn]

Outstanding summary Tomiko... That's about as perfect as it gets. Also kinda wondering in general about some more end game Red Mage stuff as finals are almost over and I'll be 75 before Christmas. What originally sparked my interest into RDM was some post somewheres about Red Mages tanking via Ninja sub, Fast Cast, and the high enmity gain of certain spells. This led to a challenge between a RL friend of mine who is a Paladin on who could be a better tank. The information I read on it seemed pretty legit. Is this an actual end game alternative to tanking or is it just wishful thinking for lolmelee RDMs?

[Tomiko]

The shell I'm in prefers Pld/Nin and Nin/Drk, but I've seen plenty of other shells that have used Rdm/Nin tanks for HNMs. It all depends on how your shell runs I guess. Rdm/Nin can be good, but seems like it takes longer to cement hate.

Best suggestion would be to give it a try and see how it goes from there. As long as your shell is willing to give it a shot you don't really have much to lose.

[Zoot]

It's a real possibility. But, you have to know what you're doing and when it's actually useful. It also takes a great deal of concentration on gearing.

The basic idea is that as RDM/NIN, you are a sustainable tank with self healing and CE hate. However, the class lacks spike hate so it's always kind of iffy at the beginning. That means it can take a little while for a RDM to gain hate. Because of this, and also the fact that as a RDM/NIN you depend largely on not getting hit, it's really a great support tank rather than a main tank (imo).

I believe the degree of hate gathered from spells is something like this, respectively:

Dispel, Sleep/Sleep II, Blind

You can also add Cure IV in there, but you'll be casting that hopefully on people besides yourself. If you are co-tanking or support tanking, you will need to use your own judgment to base having hate equal to or just below the other tank/s.

You do not use the same set of gear for tanking as you would doing anything else on RDM.

It is safest to use Emnity gear, Machatuwhv +1 dual weild, Eris earrings etc.

It's best not to try this without a significant amount of fast cast and haste. You'll want AF1 hat, AF2 body, Nashira Serawheels and dusk to be equipped when casting Utsusemi. You also want to be sure you actually know how to blink tank!

You cannot be a penny pincher if you plan to do this. You need a Magic defense set, an Oh shit button set (Consisting of alot of Darksteel +1 or that new set with -damage taken), a Fire resist set, etc.

Have stoneskin, haste, refresh, utsusemi, and appropriate bar on yourself at all times. Typically another red mage will handle enfeebles, but you will probably be expected to Phalanx II the tanks. You will also need to refresh anyone else in your party.

I have to be very honest about this - I wouldn't expect to be tanking anything soon. You'll need to get a feeling for how this job works in the endgame before going through with something like this. Try tanking small time Jeuno HNM's, and do alot of solo work first. Don't expect your linkshell to allow you to tank anything without experience. And sometimes people just don't trust it, that's to be expected from people because it's not exactly an easy role to fill.

[Tomiko]

but you will probably be expected to Phalanx II the tanks. You will also need to refresh anyone else in your party.

I strongly disagree with this.

If you're tanking, your goal/job is to attain/keep hate. You're not going to do that while keeping up Buffs on 4-5 other people. You want to be spamming spells (Bind, Sleeps, Dispel). Also, by keeping up the buffs on the party, you're going to run out of MP very fast since /Nin won't give you a very large MP pool to work with since you'll be wearing Enmity+ and Haste gear over MP gear.

Conclusion: Your role is a tank, not party support. Throw another Rdm in the party for that.

[Zoot]

I do agree with that. However, there are times when you'll be expected to do it if you want to tank (in the case of a shortage of both red mages and tanks). It is possible, I have seen an LS red mage do it. By being able to do this effectively, people accept your role as tank and not merely support more quickly. But it is a lot on your MP pool.

[OctavoGilgamesh]

I basically have a standing macro that includes shit like terra's, vermy (no refresh body or af2 hat) and golliard's trews. The 28 mp is nice and the 3% physical dmg reduction is perfect for this such setup. You can go even further with dmg reduction too. I know you won't get hit a whole lot on rdm, but I've had this setup save my ass more than once.
I think the hands are worthless really, not the legs. Zenith for nuking, Devotee's for slow/para/etc.

[senseless]

The only question remaining to be answered really is what is the max DoT that can come from capped bio3, with rdm/sch. I believe that it may be possible to push 10hp/tick with bio3 and a good setup, if not 11.

[Seditedi]

but you will probably be expected to Phalanx II the tanks. You will also need to refresh anyone else in your party.

I strongly disagree with this.

If you're tanking, your goal/job is to attain/keep hate. You're not going to do that while keeping up Buffs on 4-5 other people. You want to be spamming spells (Bind, Sleeps, Dispel). Also, by keeping up the buffs on the party, you're going to run out of MP very fast since /Nin won't give you a very large MP pool to work with since you'll be wearing Enmity+ and Haste gear over MP gear.

Conclusion: Your role is a tank, not party support. Throw another Rdm in the party for that.

Yea Zoot, that makes no sense, RDM that tank are not expected to refresh/haste/phalanx II anyone, not even themselves...

[Zoot]

Eh, like I said, I agree. It's best when you don't have to. There are plenty of linkshells though that don't really like the idea of a red mage tank. If you come in as a tank wanting to show your worth, then being able to do it is a plus. Especially for low man ventures.

What I basically mean is, if your tank party only has one red mage in it, then expect to have to refresh and phalanx. Another job can handle hastes etc., but as those are in party spells, you may have to cast them.

[layoneil]

Eh, like I said, I agree. It's best when you don't have to. There are plenty of linkshells though that don't really like the idea of a red mage tank. If you come in as a tank wanting to show your worth, then being able to do it is a plus. Especially for low man ventures.

What I basically mean is, if your tank party only has one red mage in it, then expect to have to refresh and phalanx. Another job can handle hastes etc., but as those are in party spells, you may have to cast them.

if no one else wants you to tank than stop tanking. if they want you to tank and they're not giving you the proper support than ask for it or tell them to gtfo.

[Zoot]

When red mage tanking started, everyone said it was just "bored Japanese red mages" and didn't have much utility. Alot of people are still stuck in that mentality.

I'm honestly not arguing that it isn't best to have support. But quite honestly, with the proper gear, I wouldn't call it impossible or even improbable. Especially if you're holding, waiting for members to arrive. Expect to be able to do these things, and you won't find yourself in trouble.

Edit: Also, I'd say it depends on what you're tanking. There are some HNM that just shouldn't even be tried without a secondary red mage.