Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Kaeko]

For Ascension: would it be fair to say that self-target-only spells cannot be made into AoE, and other enhancing spells can? We would still have to ignore Raise as a special exception.

Reraise and Warp were reported not to work. Any word on Blink, Stoneskin, Aquaveil, Phalanx, Blaze/Ice/Shock Spikes? These are self-target only, so I predict that they won't work.

I hope that this turns out to be a useful concept for determining for what does and does not work for Ascension

En-spells and Blink are proven to work. I think stoneskin does as well. I don't really think there is all that much reason to this... might be hard to predict.

I think not being able to use Reraise with Accession and Silence with Manifestation have been my personal biggest disappointments Everything else still looks really exciting though.

[Byrthnoth]

It looks like SCH's position in merit parties is going to be comparable to WHM's but without the Curagas, Protectra/Shellras, -nas, and basically all the other benefits of being WHM. They'll pretty much be a slightly more able main healer than SMN, but without the ability to BP or auto-refresh.

Would you make a blm/rdm main heal in a party? Because that's pretty much what you described.

They have more WHM-specific spells than RDM, calling them a BLM/RDM is a bit harsh. If they subbed WHM they'd probably be a more capable main healer than SMNs, and they'd have all of what I described them as lacking. However, I don't think they'll be particularly more sought after in merit parties than SMN (and possibly significantly less) after the novelty wears off. This will probably end up being a job for someone who already has multiple 75s and levels it so their HNMLS has another way to low-man NMs. Let's face it, there's a pretty significant downside to a DoT based job in a world where merit monsters last from 5-30 seconds.

To make comparison's simpler, has anyone shown that /SCH's Dark/Light Arts are gimped in any way other than having a max of 1 Stratagem?

If they haven't, I don't see how SCH/sub of your choice is superior to RDM/SCH at doing SCH's job (Hybrid nuker/healer). RDM has higher skill when you factor in the 20 from AF/Relic, lower casting time from Fast Cast, the same MP usage/casting time reduction from Dark Arts, and additional MAB traits, along with defensive spells, Refresh, Haste, and Convert. The Helicies, which while lower MP than people suspected, still aren't useful without Modus Veritas in melee/manaburns simply due to the fact that they're DoT on a mob with a 20 second lifespan.

In xp, I think that SCHs are functional and useful hybrid healer/nukers until the high-50s where the ones that aren't full HQ and meritted will start getting resists, then they are given the Helicies and become useful DoT damage dealers/healers. In events like Limbus, I think they'll play a similar role to what I described above, possibly being thrown in to buff a BLM party if not enough BLMs show up and you need to make them go to distance. In long fights against HNMs, I think their DoT contribution will be invaluable, though it could cause some issues on monsters like Proto-Ultima/Bahamut v1 where you generally prepare for an onslaught/Stun every certain HP%.

I really hope Scholar ends up being more functional in merit parties than I suspect, and that it is even better in HNM than I dare dream. However, I'm not holding by breath. Ciao!

[Delekii]

In a merit party, aka a party with 3-4 melee, 1-2 support, and a healer, I would prefer a smn over a scholar for main healer. Whatever the scholar has, they don't have haste. Nothing a scholar has can account for a loss of 10-15% haste in a merit party situation. We don't need more healing, we don't need AoE regen, we don't even need weather effects. Scholars may make more able healers than SMNs, and I don't doubt that, but that doesn't make them more useful in any respect - healing is well and truly covered already in FFXI.

As for endgame aside from merits, I guess there is some viability to some aspects of Scholar, but it's hard to see where they will fit really. A bit of low enmity damage with some limited access to weather effects is nice and all, but its just a redistribution of damage that we can already do..

[Lordwafik]

What do they have over BLM/RDM aside from Cure4 and Regen2 ? Spamming cure 4 is stupid, regen 2 doesn't save lives. Protects/Shells lol, nobody uses them.

if they sub /whm they get -na, but they still don't get the things that make them wanted in TP burns : Haste.

[Kaeko]

I see some possible endgame application for SCH in low manning Einherjar. I think Manifestation is incredibly unique as far as what any other job in the game can do...

While many jobs are known as good "crowd controllers" like BRD, BLM, and /BLM, these jobs do this by using AoE Sleep (e.g. Dynamis). You can't really rely on other action or movement inhibiting enfeebles like Bind and Gravity because of the recast (unless RDM 2hr). Not all mobs in endgame events are sleepable or have durations that can be relied upon - Einherjar being a prime example of this. The ability to land essential Enfeebles with normally crippling recast times (like a Bind or Gravity) on 10+ mobs at once is an application I don't think any other job can potentially rival.

While this is probably something small, it does give SCH at least something that sets it apart from any other job. Helices also look like an incredibly MP and enmity efficient method of DD (just not time efficient). I think it's something to look forward to.

I think SCH plays almost no unique role in meripo though That coupled with the fact that it gets Cure IV is probably going to make it a cure bitch without Haste in the minds of your typical "I must get 15-30k an hour" LVL75 meriter.

[Ruin]

Can SCH use shaman's cloak?

[Custom M]

Yes, it can use shaman's cloak.
I'd also like to point out that people don't cast constantly and black mages and scholars could work together to take best advantage of storm spells. People could cast the bulk, or all of their nukes, in the two minutes it's on. Then rest, rebuff, cure, etc. in the two minutes th storm spell is up.

[Max™]

Well, do Blm's get in TP burn meripos? I've never seen one.

Could a Scholar fit into a Manaburn? I've never been in one, so I don't know the dynamics, but I saw Scholars slotting into groups with the Blm's in my head.

We got the new meripo healer covered with Dnc, Sch isn't a healer anymore than Blm is.

[whoami]

Worst comes to worst sch could just possily book burn using helice's with other dots and bind/gravity. hitting a 100 intial damage is 2k in 1 minute adding in poison II and bio II your looking at 125 (roughyl) per tic damage for 2.2k damage in 1 minute and for only 110ish mp. if its a aspirable mob then with autorefesh theres very little down time to soloing mobs.
Blue mages are in a same sitation for merits in that they can DD or heal but no one relly wants them so they solo/duo/blu burn and it works out fine most the time. We shouldnt be in such a rush to fit new jobs into a pigeon hole or conform to exsisting party/merit party set ups without exploring other choices first.

(proposed book burning could be gravity/bind and use dots with a few mp effecient nukes like drain/blizzard III to speed up kills)

[Max™]

I'm sure book burning will go over well in Midwest Ameri-kuh too, they don't take too kindly ta them lern-ed types 'round them parts.

Perhaps instead of a book burn, they could be called a Bradbury?


People probably wouldn't get it though.

[Delekii]

I see some possible endgame application for SCH in low manning Einherjar. I think Manifestation is incredibly unique as far as what any other job in the game can do...

While many jobs are known as good "crowd controllers" like BRD, BLM, and /BLM, these jobs do this by using AoE Sleep (e.g. Dynamis). You can't really rely on other action or movement inhibiting enfeebles like Bind and Gravity because of the recast (unless RDM 2hr). Not all mobs in endgame events are sleepable or have durations that can be relied upon - Einherjar being a prime example of this. The ability to land essential Enfeebles with normally crippling recast times (like a Bind or Gravity) on 10+ mobs at once is an application I don't think any other job can potentially rival.

While this is probably something small, it does give SCH at least something that sets it apart from any other job. Helices also look like an incredibly MP and enmity efficient method of DD (just not time efficient). I think it's something to look forward to.

I think SCH plays almost no unique role in meripo though That coupled with the fact that it gets Cure IV is probably going to make it a cure bitch without Haste in the minds of your typical "I must get 15-30k an hour" LVL75 meriter.

BLU can rival it, and can do it with style - not only can they do so, but they can also hold hate on, and effectively tank said mobs at the same time as keeping them crowd-controlled.

BLU can cast back to back a total of 3 sleepga-esk spells, two of which are light based. They are short range, but it isn't that hard to gather mobs. BLU can get an absolute tonne of defense and -damage%, can get ice-spikes naturally, has access to slowga, flashga, stunga, bindga, blindga, graviga, and more. Of course, all of these take some work with positioning, but it really isn't hard to catch the majority of a group of Einherjar mobs with every debuff you need - you can apply slow and blind without waking them up, you can solo resleep them even if you have hate by actinic burst > sleep spell. With limited support, 2 BLU can ideally hold any single group of Einherjar mobs. Not to mention, supertank works in Einherjar, so you don't really need any of the above in many situations.

[Sasarai]

I see some possible endgame application for SCH in low manning Einherjar. I think Manifestation is incredibly unique as far as what any other job in the game can do...

While many jobs are known as good "crowd controllers" like BRD, BLM, and /BLM, these jobs do this by using AoE Sleep (e.g. Dynamis). You can't really rely on other action or movement inhibiting enfeebles like Bind and Gravity because of the recast (unless RDM 2hr). Not all mobs in endgame events are sleepable or have durations that can be relied upon - Einherjar being a prime example of this. The ability to land essential Enfeebles with normally crippling recast times (like a Bind or Gravity) on 10+ mobs at once is an application I don't think any other job can potentially rival.

While this is probably something small, it does give SCH at least something that sets it apart from any other job. Helices also look like an incredibly MP and enmity efficient method of DD (just not time efficient). I think it's something to look forward to.

I think SCH plays almost no unique role in meripo though That coupled with the fact that it gets Cure IV is probably going to make it a cure bitch without Haste in the minds of your typical "I must get 15-30k an hour" LVL75 meriter.

BLU can rival it, and can do it with style - not only can they do so, but they can also hold hate on, and effectively tank said mobs at the same time as keeping them crowd-controlled.

BLU can cast back to back a total of 3 sleepga-esk spells, two of which are light based. They are short range, but it isn't that hard to gather mobs. BLU can get an absolute tonne of defense and -damage%, can get ice-spikes naturally, has access to slowga, flashga, stunga, bindga, blindga, graviga, and more. Of course, all of these take some work with positioning, but it really isn't hard to catch the majority of a group of Einherjar mobs with every debuff you need - you can apply slow and blind without waking them up, you can solo resleep them even if you have hate by actinic burst > sleep spell. With limited support, 2 BLU can ideally hold any single group of Einherjar mobs. Not to mention, supertank works in Einherjar, so you don't really need any of the above in many situations.

Biased much?

[eva00r]

I see some possible endgame application for SCH in low manning Einherjar. I think Manifestation is incredibly unique as far as what any other job in the game can do...

While many jobs are known as good "crowd controllers" like BRD, BLM, and /BLM, these jobs do this by using AoE Sleep (e.g. Dynamis). You can't really rely on other action or movement inhibiting enfeebles like Bind and Gravity because of the recast (unless RDM 2hr). Not all mobs in endgame events are sleepable or have durations that can be relied upon - Einherjar being a prime example of this. The ability to land essential Enfeebles with normally crippling recast times (like a Bind or Gravity) on 10+ mobs at once is an application I don't think any other job can potentially rival.

While this is probably something small, it does give SCH at least something that sets it apart from any other job. Helices also look like an incredibly MP and enmity efficient method of DD (just not time efficient). I think it's something to look forward to.

I think SCH plays almost no unique role in meripo though That coupled with the fact that it gets Cure IV is probably going to make it a cure bitch without Haste in the minds of your typical "I must get 15-30k an hour" LVL75 meriter.

BLU can rival it, and can do it with style - not only can they do so, but they can also hold hate on, and effectively tank said mobs at the same time as keeping them crowd-controlled.

BLU can cast back to back a total of 3 sleepga-esk spells, two of which are light based. They are short range, but it isn't that hard to gather mobs. BLU can get an absolute tonne of defense and -damage%, can get ice-spikes naturally, has access to slowga, flashga, stunga, bindga, blindga, graviga, and more. Of course, all of these take some work with positioning, but it really isn't hard to catch the majority of a group of Einherjar mobs with every debuff you need - you can apply slow and blind without waking them up, you can solo resleep them even if you have hate by actinic burst > sleep spell. With limited support, 2 BLU can ideally hold any single group of Einherjar mobs. Not to mention, supertank works in Einherjar, so you don't really need any of the above in many situations.

Biased much?

At least that works for The Ashu Talif #1 assault. Temporal Shift / Actinic Burst / Frypan pwnz

[Kaslo]

idk having weather for my obi's 50% of the time is a hell of a bonus compared to 0% of the time

Actually its worse then this >.<. Would only have the effect for about 30-35% of the time cause of timers on the JA's and them being chained to one another and not being separate.

How do you figure? The only way is if they are using JA's with other spells, which if they are smart they probably won't be doing (In the endgame situation). It would be like a RDM not casting refresh when it wears. Other than that the math works out to 50%

[chesh]

I'm sure book burning will go over well in Midwest Ameri-kuh too, they don't take too kindly ta them lern-ed types 'round them parts.

Perhaps instead of a book burn, they could be called a Bradbury?


People probably wouldn't get it though.

When I was duoing with a friend last night she called it a book club.

Sadly, given the existing game terminology we've come to be familiar with, bookburn is likely the only term anyone will use for a group of SCH.

[Byrthnoth]

Well, first off Manaburns don't really get awesome xp. Horrible Manaburns get about 8k/hr. Standard Manaburns get about 11k/hr. Good Manaburns can push 12-13k/hr. Awesome manaburns might get 15k/hr. You probably need G-horn BRDs and BLMs capable of taking down Wamouras with 3 Tier 4s to see better xp/hr than that. So, a really really awesome Manaburn can probably pull the same xp/hr as a mediocre meleeburn.

That said, given the choice between Scholar/(RDM or BLM) and RDM/SCH or COR in Manaburn, I'd go with the RDM or COR no contest. They contribute more/the same amount of damage (nuking) and MAB+ Roll/Shots, and they have Refresh. I'd take a SCH into a manaburn at about the same point that I'd take a SMN into manaburn. SMNs have their MAB/MDB+ BP, they can keep people alive, and some have meritted magic BPs which can do decent damage. They also lack Refresh.

I just think SCH will end up subbing RDM and soloing like BLM if they want to merit on SCH. Higher Enfeebling Skill (not if you count BLM JSE) and MAB/MDB based DoT would be fine for getting chain 3 on puddings, though they lack Stun and probably can't Sleep a monster through Helix DoT. I could see the strategy for DoT soloing on puddings being: Aspir/Helix -> Silence -> Gravity -> DoTs, then kite it around Aspiring like crazy.

If SE ever puts in higher level monsters that give 3000xp to a party of 6 or something (500/person) that live a little longer, we might see a resurgence of the "traditional" party that does crazy things like SC+MB, and SCH might have a place in that kind of party.


Random question, but can Helices be MBed? Using Yigit and such for MAB, adding in potential stat modifiers, and judging by the +2 damage/spell pattern we saw earlier in this thread, I would guess that 40 damage/tick would not be unreasonable as a final damage of these Helices. If you add on another 30% for MB and that's 52 damage/tick. Then double it using Modus Veritas and that's 104 damage/tick. Could be a pretty kickass form of damage. That said, how many ticks do these things last. The earlier estimations of 50/70 seconds weren't any too flattering. At 3 seconds/tick that's not really that many ticks. There must be a way to extend it >.>! I smell AF stats!

[Kyreth]

idk having weather for my obi's 50% of the time is a hell of a bonus compared to 0% of the time

Actually its worse then this >.<. Would only have the effect for about 30-35% of the time cause of timers on the JA's and them being chained to one another and not being separate.

Betting Storm and Helix modification are 100 percent likely as meritables. I'm looking at Scholar merit mods with great interest at this point, as currently the job is bare bones. Will AF help? Merits? We do not know.

How much haste can we pile on a Scholar to improve those recast times, anyway?

[Naramaska]

Will AF help?

For weather? Likely. Helices? Doubtful, unless you count raw +skill for whatever it is they're based on. Admittedly, AF sets were added when the level cap didn't permit it, but there are no +stats/skills for any traits or abilities post-60 for any job as far as I can tell. The only time you start seeing them is on stuff like AF2--such as PLD's "Enhances Rampart" on the AF2 headpiece.

My guess is there's going to be some AF piece that'll extend the duration of weather effects, or enhance the proc rate/potency of said effects (like BLM AF2 pants). Just wish that outside of +skill, Helix enhancements would be feasible

[Maxxthepenguin]

BLU can rival it, and can do it with style - not only can they do so, but they can also hold hate on, and effectively tank said mobs at the same time as keeping them crowd-controlled.

BLU can cast back to back a total of 3 sleepga-esk spells, two of which are light based. They are short range, but it isn't that hard to gather mobs. BLU can get an absolute tonne of defense and -damage%, can get ice-spikes naturally, has access to slowga, flashga, stunga, bindga, blindga, graviga, and more. Of course, all of these take some work with positioning, but it really isn't hard to catch the majority of a group of Einherjar mobs with every debuff you need - you can apply slow and blind without waking them up, you can solo resleep them even if you have hate by actinic burst > sleep spell. With limited support, 2 BLU can ideally hold any single group of Einherjar mobs. Not to mention, supertank works in Einherjar, so you don't really need any of the above in many situations.

Biased much?

That's like saying somebody is biased for saying BLM can cast Sleepga

[Sasarai]

BLU can rival it, and can do it with style - not only can they do so, but they can also hold hate on, and effectively tank said mobs at the same time as keeping them crowd-controlled.

BLU can cast back to back a total of 3 sleepga-esk spells, two of which are light based. They are short range, but it isn't that hard to gather mobs. BLU can get an absolute tonne of defense and -damage%, can get ice-spikes naturally, has access to slowga, flashga, stunga, bindga, blindga, graviga, and more. Of course, all of these take some work with positioning, but it really isn't hard to catch the majority of a group of Einherjar mobs with every debuff you need - you can apply slow and blind without waking them up, you can solo resleep them even if you have hate by actinic burst > sleep spell. With limited support, 2 BLU can ideally hold any single group of Einherjar mobs. Not to mention, supertank works in Einherjar, so you don't really need any of the above in many situations.

Biased much?

That's like saying somebody is biased for saying BLM can cast Sleepga

Not really.

He wasn't simply stating what BLU can do (which is completely off-topic in this thread anyway) he started it with the intention of proving BLU could do anything SCH can do, only BETTER.

Not only is this unknown and unproven at this time, he also fails to acknowledge the faults with BLU doing this (Range being a big one) and is in my opinion being horribly biased.

EDIT: Not that any of this matters, this is a SCH discussion thread, lets keep it that way.