Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Gilthas]

That said, given the choice between Scholar/(RDM or BLM) and RDM/SCH or COR in Manaburn, I'd go with the RDM or COR no contest. They contribute more/the same amount of damage (nuking) and MAB+ Roll/Shots, and they have Refresh. I'd take a SCH into a manaburn at about the same point that I'd take a SMN into manaburn. SMNs have their MAB/MDB+ BP, they can keep people alive, and some have meritted magic BPs which can do decent damage. They also lack Refresh.

Because every manaburn has to be totally BLM based...

I don't think people are saying replace your RDMs with SCH! They are saying you can throw SCH into the mix, ie filling in for a BLM, at camps like Puddings and still preform well. I have been in manaburns as BLU as both a nuker (Puddings) and a puller (Roaches) and more than pulled my weight, plus was a fun alternative to normal merit parties. I see no reason a SCH couldn't manaburn Puddings with BLMs, outside of elitists that are BLM onry.

The thing is, SCH is just going to be a "well just take the SCH since we can't get a BLM, RDM, BRD or COR". Being the 5th choice isn't actually a great thing.

Once again SCH just gets lumped in with RDM BRD COR? No if you read I view it as an alternative to BLM nor RDM COR BRD. If you have a RDM COR or BRD already you don't need anotherone usually in a manaburn, so in that case SCH has a decent priority behind BLMs, you just bring back up the elitist BLM onry mindset of manaburns.

Decent? RDM/SCH would probably be ahead of a SCH if what they needed was nuking power for Pudings, they're certainly not replacing a BLM against Wamouras, might as well manaburn with one less member.

[Toth]

Decent? RDM/SCH would probably be ahead of a SCH if what they needed was nuking power for Pudings, they're certainly not replacing a BLM against Wamouras, might as well manaburn with one less member.

Seeing how no one has really tested a SCH's nuking power post 70, it's all just assumption. You may be surprised.

[Genosync]

Decent? RDM/SCH would probably be ahead of a SCH if what they needed was nuking power for Pudings, they're certainly not replacing a BLM against Wamouras, might as well manaburn with one less member.

Seeing how no one has really tested a SCH's nuking power post 70, it's all just assumption. You may be surprised.

Going to go out on a limb here and guarantee you I can do more damage on my RDM than Scholar, but it's ok.

[Jer]

Does Scholar get Magic Attack Bonus as a job trait? I don't remember seeing it on the list.

[Sasarai]

Decent? RDM/SCH would probably be ahead of a SCH if what they needed was nuking power for Pudings, they're certainly not replacing a BLM against Wamouras, might as well manaburn with one less member.

Seeing how no one has really tested a SCH's nuking power post 70, it's all just assumption. You may be surprised.

Going to go out on a limb here and guarantee you I can do more damage on my RDM than Scholar, but it's ok.

I'd have thought you would have more tact than to make such a baseless blanket statement without any proof, info and/or evidence at all. Apparently not.

You may be right, but if you aren't, you have just made an ass of yourself.

[Maxxthepenguin]

SCH/RDM or SCH/BLM should be nuking better than RDM with equivalent gear (that doesn't exist yet but probably will) simply due to the int increase >_>

[evilpaul]

SCH doesn't get Zenith Mitts and I don't think gets Morrigan's either? RDM has some gear advantage, but having constant Lightning/Blizzard weather instead of Earth weather on Mount Z would be a nice change imho.

Like people have mentioned, we don't know what SCH Artifact will do yet. It could make Dark Arts increase to A- skill (and decrease white magic to E). It could make the weather spells be double weather. We simply don't know yet, and it could make a big difference in what people end up wanting to use SCH for in merit parties and endgame events. I'm not expecting 30k+/hr merit parties for SCH, but manaburns look like a possibility.

[nivlakian]

SCH/RDM or SCH/BLM should be nuking better than RDM with equivalent gear (that doesn't exist yet but probably will) simply due to the int increase >_>

Given that we know the equations for magic damage. It comes down to:

Who has higher base MAB?
RDM naturally has 2 MAB traits, SCH has none and needs to sub BLM to be equal.

Who has higher base INT?
I don't know the difference in INT of two people of the same race at 75.

Who has access to more INT gear?
Both jobs have access to nearly equal amounts of INT gear. Errant, etc.

Who has access to more MAB gear?
RDM can use Zenith Mitts and AF2 boots for additional MAB. Both jobs can wear novio, moldavite.

Overall, it seems to me the difference in nuking power will not be that great assuming the SCH subs BLM. However, if the SCH is constantly keeping weather spells on, then SCH has an advantage.

[Toth]

SCH can wear both Yigit Gages ( INT and MND +5, MAB +2) and Goliard Cuffs ( MAB+4) to make up for the lack of Zenith.

[Lilswitche]

I just wanna show the Base INT Differences. I only have 75BLM 57RDM and 61SCH to do this though. I'm taru btw.

75BLM/37RDM -> 79
75BLM/37SCH -> 80
57RDM/28BLM -> 68
57RDM/28SCH -> 67
61SCH/30RDM -> 71
61SCH/30BLM -> 73

It's definite that SCH natively gets more INT than RDM. SCH does get less INT than BLM, but I think it'll be pretty darn close.

[Byrthnoth]

SCH/BLM can wear Yigit Head/Body/Feet/Hands, Mahatma Slops, Prism Cape, Penitent's Rope, Elemental Torque, Novio/Moldavite Earring, Tamas/Snow Ring, Phantom Tathlum, and Aquilo's Staff/Bugard Strap +1. With capped elemental merits, this might be enough skill even starting from a B- (246+7+16 = 269), though it might be shakey.
RDM/SCH can wear AF1 Hat, Morrigan's Body/Legs/Hands, Yigit Feet or AF2, Prism Cape, Penitent's Rope, Elemental Torque, Novio/Moldavite Earring, Tamas/Snow Ring, Phantom Tathlum, and Aquilo's Staff/Bugard Strap +1. With capped merits again, this would be more skill than SCH due to the AF1 hat. Relic/Relic+1 legs could also be used on particularly resist-y monsters. (246+7+10+16=279, with Relic +1 being another 12 for 291)

Gear-wise, RDM has a pretty substantial advantage. However it's mostly in Morrigan's (especially body), which most people will never wear, and AF, which hasn't been released for scholar yet.

Thing is, as people have said, elitist manaburns generally top out around half the xp/hr of elitist meleeburns. Being 5th pick for a merit party fated to be mediocre at best isn't good, and sometimes people *are* just better off going with 3/4 instead of inviting a 5th that they know isn't going to pull their weight. Hell, I wouldn't invite a RDM/SCH to nuke, why would I invite a SCH/BLM? Fewer defensive spells, no Refresh . . . SCH is also kind of fourth pick for meleeburn main healer, but if you have a meleeburn desperate enough to invite a SCH to main heal, do you really want to be part of that party?

The long timer for on helices ticks is a pretty big disappointment. I really hope SE adjusts this. I don't think having high regular DoT would be particularly harmful to the game as a whole, I just think it would give SCH a spot in the overall scheme of things.

In other news: I'm seriously considering making a mule Mrpotter and leveling SCH on it. <,< But considering how poorly my idea to make a mule MrT and level PLD on it, then wear all the Gilt armor went, this might not happen.

[Judai]

SCH can wear both Yigit Gages ( INT and MND +5, MAB +2) and Goliard Cuffs ( MAB+4) to make up for the lack of Zenith.

Don't forget Yigit Head and Feet. SCH and RDM shouldn't be too far off, RDM is a bit ahead prolly in gear but SCHs Weather spells w/ Obis will push them ahead easily. RDM can get like 2 more MAB, unless they have Morrigan's Robe(how many do?)

[Max™]

Obi+Weather in your favor should be a HUGE boost to the Scholar.

I really think we need to wait to see how abusive this can be from the merited/decked Blm's/Rdm's who are leveling Scholar and dinging into merits/everything they've accumulated.

If Helices maintain the initial damage over the full duration of the tics, imagine people pushing 200 Damage helices for basically hateless damage compared to others, and then stacking in just sub-BLM tier nukes.

Rotating the Strategems, using Modus when Strats aren't available to make up for the loss of the better nuking, I'm no mage, but the tools Sch has put it in the Blm type DD slot in my mind, not some weird hybrid.

[Gilthas]

I just wanna show the Base INT Differences. I only have 75BLM 57RDM and 61SCH to do this though. I'm taru btw.

75BLM/37RDM -> 79
75BLM/37SCH -> 80
57RDM/28BLM -> 68
57RDM/28SCH -> 67
61SCH/30RDM -> 71
61SCH/30BLM -> 73

It's definite that SCH natively gets more INT than RDM. SCH does get less INT than BLM, but I think it'll be pretty darn close.

SCH seems to have the same INT growth rate as SMNs by your data.

[Genosync]

SCH can wear both Yigit Gages ( INT and MND +5, MAB +2) and Goliard Cuffs ( MAB+4) to make up for the lack of Zenith.

still don't see it equal to MAB+5 but that's ok

[Judai]

SCH can wear both Yigit Gages ( INT and MND +5, MAB +2) and Goliard Cuffs ( MAB+4) to make up for the lack of Zenith.

still don't see it equal to MAB+5 but that's ok

Yigit Gages and Zenith Mitts show near identical numbers on RDM. They were the same on most of my nukes until I got below 50% MP and added Ugg Pendant, then Zenith did 1-2pts of dmg more then Yigit. Yigit hits for 1-2pts more then Goliard as well.

On Tier 3 nukes 2INT pretty much equals 1MAB but in some cases INT pulls ahead and in others MAB wins. Errant Hppl. does 1-2pts more dmg then Yigit Gomlek. (10INTvs5MAB) The only thing RDM can get that SCH cannot and really makes a difference would be Morrigan's Robe(AF+1Hat/M.Hands/M.Legs would help a small amount as well). The one thing SCH gets over RDM is.. Weather Bonus! Which will add 10% damage with Obi(or just random chance to proc w/o) and will easily push it past RDM nuking. Also, SCH has the ability to increase it's Nuking damage with Ebullience, although I do not know by how much.

I can easily see the potential for SCH to out damage RDM in a nuke by nuke case, although RDM has the upper hand with Refresh, Haste and Convert in a speed nuking set-up or long term even. We will have to see how SCHs nukes are at 75 though.

[Genosync]

all I know is, when I saw scholar couldn't equip morrigan's robe, I wanted to die inside.

[Judai]

Yea, SE has been slapping the newer jobs in the faces. No AF2 or AF+1 for BLU/COR/PUP yet.. No Abjs/God gear or even Salvage gear for SCH/DNC.. No AF yet but that was expected with how they did BLU/COR/PUP. So far SCH/DNC got the bigger slap in the face but it has been a year for BLU/COR/PUP and nothing new~

SCH definately has the potential though, even with the lesser gear choices. Yigit gear is a better nuking set then most people realize.

[Synergy]

Everyone here saying SCH gear is sub par to RDM gear couldn't be more right. SCH sucks balls compared to them why did SE even make them if they can't even match RDM gear....



Oh wait, could it be that SE isn't done with SCH and their gear yet? Nah, that's highly unlikely, I think its 100% complete, I heard DNC and SCH weren't getting AF or merits.

[Not Kuno]

It'll take a lot to bump SCH past what a RDM can do. No Morrigans/Zenith hurts it really bad. It'll take some really good AF to get past that.