Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Lordwafik]

Oh wait, could it be that SE isn't done with SCH and their gear yet? Nah, that's highly unlikely, I think its 100% complete, I heard DNC and SCH weren't getting AF or merits.

People are using past experience with new jobs as evidence to prove that they aren't getting new things.

BLU and COR got added onto crimson and other end game gear when the expansion came out, they never got added onto any other previously existing armor in any further patches except for a whopping one case where they were added onto a particular subligar.

I am crossing my fingers that they aren't done yet with gear - looking at the salvage sets and what they've said in the past about AF : "We add AF stats after we see how players play with the jobs" there is a slight chance that they'll be added onto sets that have multiple jobs (for example - will SCH get marduk or morrigan? Will dnc get nashira or homam?) , but considering both jobs have gear sets all the way up to level 75, they both have nyzul sets (goliard / denali ) , they both have Assault sets (Yigit / pahluwan ) , and SCH even gets herald gaiters, I find it highly unlikely they're gonna get anything nifty this time around unless it's from something new.

However once again, they bumrushed the expansion to get it out before christmas, and there's a whole lot of incompleteness about it. The other two expansions had way more content in them apon release, and had more than just a sand worm to fight, so really if you want them to add jobs to current sets, the best way to do it is to put it in comments and suggestions and hope they listen (and add them) before the next patch comes out.

[eva00r]

-10% Bonus for the correct day
-10% Bonus for the correct weather
Both will be granted with correct elemental obis, in which SCH have 8 elements of helix spells while RDM only have 6 elements of III spells. SCH will be the prime magic DD of 'Light' and 'Dark' element, or even better than BLM in this aspect. Plus, Ebuillience can push this by 20% further every 4-8 minutes and Modus Veritas every once in a while.

However, the only drawback of SCH is when you landed dot spells, you can't sleep the mob. This can be troublesome in some particular situations.

[Kaeko]

Sorry if I'm asking something that's blatantly obvious in the thread, but...

So Helix spells have a DoT that works roughly "every 4 normal ticks" for 5 ticks? Would this imply every 12 seconds for the duration of a minute for 5 total ticks? I think an earlier report said the duration (without weather) was closer to 50 seconds, so maybe it is "1 tick every 10 seconds" (the time it take to /heal) for 5 ticks or 50 seconds?

So I guess it seems like whatever you do on the Helix spell, you can just multiply that by x6 for the total damage? In one of Kohanacat's reports, she said that having weather made the duration 70 seconds, so the correct weather may not only give you the damage bonus on the initial hit, but also add 2 more ticks (multiply by 8 instead of 6)?

I'd be interested to see what a "Double Weather" situation does for Helix spells. Regardless of if you get an added bonus, I think these could be very potent with the proper gear, assuming the resist rates are not a major issue.

[Naramaska]

However, the only drawback of SCH is when you landed dot spells, you can't sleep the mob. This can be troublesome in some particular situations.

This seems almost exactly what Modus Veritas was made for. Shit hits the fan--pop Modus, halve the remaining duration, and get your DoT's under control fast.

[Lilswitche]

However, the only drawback of SCH is when you landed dot spells, you can't sleep the mob. This can be troublesome in some particular situations.

This seems almost exactly what Modus Veritas was made for. Shit hits the fan--pop Modus, halve the remaining duration, and get your DoT's under control fast.

I was thinking the exact same thing, as well as the fact they don't stick for as long as regular dots. As such, I hardly deem the "Incase shit happens" scenario as a viable argument to not applying the helices.

In most cases, if you're thinking about sleeping the mob, you're not going to wipe within the >30 secs it takes for it to wear off (assuming the dot had JUST been cast and you pop your JA). Likewise, alot of the big HNM can't even be slept and most competent groups don't need to sleep them anyways.

[Gilthas]

Everyone here saying SCH gear is sub par to RDM gear couldn't be more right. SCH sucks balls compared to them why did SE even make them if they can't even match RDM gear....



Oh wait, could it be that SE isn't done with SCH and their gear yet? Nah, that's highly unlikely, I think its 100% complete, I heard DNC and SCH weren't getting AF or merits.

We can only judge jobs by how they are now. When SE adds more stuff to them then we can judge that. Speculating about how their AF might be awesome is pointless.

[Kohanacat]

Hello again!!

I am now SCH72. I was browsing SCH forum on Alla and was a little upset by someone posting about AOE SCH buffs (Like Stoneskin and Phalanx) being useless and based off recipient's skill. I've been using Stoneskin in parties for awhile now, and had my first party using Phalanx today, and didn't think it was true so me and Vylia decided to test it out.

Stoneskin Testing
For Stoneskin we went to Western Altepa Desert. I was on SCH/whm and Vylia was on BST/nin. We were going to let pet tank, buff Stoneskin, and wait for 1000 needles. I'm bad at math, but Vylia found the Stoneskin calculations online so we could predict ahead of time how much damage we would take if it was based off my skill (we would take equal damage anyway if this were the case.) It worked perfectly and I think it's pretty clear that SS is definately based of the SCH's skill/mnd. I had 241 Enhancing with Light Arts and 62+21 MND. If anyone wants to see the math worked out I'll get my friend to tell me the formulas.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...oneskinyay.jpg

Phalanx Testing
We also did some testing with Phalanx, since this test wasn't as clear cut as the 1000 needles test I can't say for 100% sure that this concludes it's based off SCH skill, but it seems pretty likely. I switchd to SCH/rdm and we went to Kuftal Tunnel. We let a Robber Crab smack Vylia around for 10 hits, charmed it and healed Vylia up, buffed with AOE Phalanx, then let the same crab smack him for another 10 hits. I will post the damage taken (there was no Protect up):

No Phalanx: 69, 78, 120 (crit), 83, 58, 69, 72, 60, 75, 68
AOE Phalanx: 41, 45, 28, 47, 55, 49, 42, 39, 42, 51, 46

We also looked up the formula for this, and with no (zero) Enhancing skill Phalanx should've given Vylia no damage reduction if it were based on his Enhancing skill.

Enspells
This seems to be based of the recipient's stats, but our testing wasn't very .... scientific? On the spiders in the desert I was hitting consistantly for 17 extra damage with enblizzard. Vylia was hitting for mostly 8's but did occasionally (rarely) get a 15. I think the formula was too complicated for us so we didn't really do much with this. Sorry. D:

---

Haven't made much progress on helices, because I can't figure out what is effecting duration. I even loaded up timestamp but the durations are just as crazy as my /clocks. I've had 61 seconds (Initial damage+7 ticks) with no weather, all the way down to 41 seconds(Initial damage+4 ticks) with weather up, and the initial damage hitting unresisted. We are holding off on testing these more until I get an obi or two to help test with.. We did this by casting helix on a mob, and immediately charming it and spamming pethpp so we could see when ticks occured. We tried to timestamp exactly how many seconds between ticks as well using this method, however due to command errors the timining was still very inprecise. I was getting 9-12 seconds between ticks (but im guessing the 12's were due to spam delay) just to put an estimation out there.

Sorry for the innacuracy of the "every other tick" comment regarding helices as well. I didn't know any other way to test/explain it at the time. ^^

Thank you!!!
Kohana

[Kohanacat]

Sorry if I'm asking something that's blatantly obvious in the thread, but...

So Helix spells have a DoT that works roughly "every 4 normal ticks" for 5 ticks? Would this imply every 12 seconds for the duration of a minute for 5 total ticks? I think an earlier report said the duration (without weather) was closer to 50 seconds, so maybe it is "1 tick every 10 seconds" (the time it take to /heal) for 5 ticks or 50 seconds?

So I guess it seems like whatever you do on the Helix spell, you can just multiply that by x6 for the total damage? In one of Kohanacat's reports, she said that having weather made the duration 70 seconds, so the correct weather may not only give you the damage bonus on the initial hit, but also add 2 more ticks (multiply by 8 instead of 6)?

I'd be interested to see what a "Double Weather" situation does for Helix spells. Regardless of if you get an added bonus, I think these could be very potent with the proper gear, assuming the resist rates are not a major issue.

It only seemed to make the duraton longer, but truly the results I'm getting are pretty random. I think when I was doing that testing, I must've gotten a few lucky full durations, because the past few timings I've done with weather don't correlate. I seem to get just as many short durations as long durations. When I was testing I didn't get a 10% initial damage bonus every time either so it's difficult to say what the effect of weather really is meant to be. I just find it kind of odd for them to read "greatly effected by weather" but not have a greatly noticeable change in damage or duration when weather is up, it's almost like you need to have an obi to reap the benefits of the "great effect". Going to go farming tomorrow for one, hopefully it will clear things up a bit for me.

I guess what I'm trying to say in regards to your question, is until we nail down what effects duration and how to manipulate it(if it can be) it's hard to say what we can multiply the initial damage by to know how much damage they are doing. I've seen from 4 to 7 ticks before it wears (so x5 or x8 if you include the initial damage) and some inbetween. I've seen short durations with weather on and long durations with no weather so it's very hard to say what's going on.

[Toth]

Great stuff!

It does appear that the Helices are either a bit bugged or very random. I won't be shocked to see this addressed in the next patch.

Luckily, the amount of MP used for these spells isn't a deterrent to use them :D

[Khamsin]

They should change enspells to be based on the caster's stats, not the recipient.

And while they're at it, they can fix avatar's enspells, too. They're also based on the recipient, I think.

[Kyreth]

They should change enspells to be based on the caster's stats, not the recipient.

And while they're at it, they can fix avatar's enspells, too. They're also based on the recipient, I think.

It'd be a heckuva lot more effective if they simply checked the caster, like Phalanx II does.

[Sekkite]

Great info Kohanacat.

For Phalanxga testing, why not go get some with a low level job, like less than 10, phalanxga them and have them fight an EM. That would be 100%, clear cut proof for the results of it. That's not to say the evidence you posted wasn't convincing, but you did say that they weren't definitive.

[Kyreth]

Just take another Thousand Needles test. Phalanx absorbs damage from that, too. If damage taken is identical by all, you have a winner.

[nekoshoonen]

Great info Kohanacat.

For Phalanxga testing, why not go get some with a low level job, like less than 10, phalanxga them and have them fight an EM. That would be 100%, clear cut proof for the results of it. That's not to say the evidence you posted wasn't convincing, but you did say that they weren't definitive.

most buffs are gimped when given to someone when they aren't of level to be able to cast them on themselves if they were the right jobs

see Haste/Protect4 from a PL

[Sekkite]

Great info Kohanacat.

For Phalanxga testing, why not go get some with a low level job, like less than 10, phalanxga them and have them fight an EM. That would be 100%, clear cut proof for the results of it. That's not to say the evidence you posted wasn't convincing, but you did say that they weren't definitive.

most buffs are gimped when given to someone when they aren't of level to be able to cast them on themselves if they were the right jobs

see Haste/Protect4 from a PL

True. Kyreth's test would be best then.

Edit: As for en-spells, adjust gear so both of you have the same MND/INT/whatever the modifier is for en-spells. Cast en-spellga and watch the numbers.

[Admo]

Enspells
This seems to be based of the recipient's stats, but our testing wasn't very .... scientific? On the spiders in the desert I was hitting consistantly for 17 extra damage with enblizzard. Vylia was hitting for mostly 8's but did occasionally (rarely) get a 15. I think the formula was too complicated for us so we didn't really do much with this. Sorry. D:

This is very strange. If enspell-ga was based on the enhancing magic of the recipient, wouldn't your friend be getting the en-damage effect of 1? O.o

[Charla]

Might factor in something like dex or dex + str too. Or maybe it's using their 0 enhancing skill and just applying the minimum damage per hit, which depends only on level.

[Admo]

As far as I know of, enspell damage relies solely on your enhancing magic skill (baring any +enspell damage equipment).

[Lilswitche]

Enspells
This seems to be based of the recipient's stats, but our testing wasn't very .... scientific? On the spiders in the desert I was hitting consistantly for 17 extra damage with enblizzard. Vylia was hitting for mostly 8's but did occasionally (rarely) get a 15. I think the formula was too complicated for us so we didn't really do much with this. Sorry. D:

This is very strange. If enspell-ga was based on the enhancing magic of the recipient, wouldn't your friend be getting the en-damage effect of 1? O.o

I've noticed that most often times when doing en-spellga that you will hit for only 1 damage, the occasional 7 or 14 damage procs. If you look into the mobs weakness, use that en-spell though, and you'll see consistent 7 damage and occasional 14 damage procs. (Was using En-Blizzard on Crawler's in Aydeewa Subterrain, good procs. However, on the puktraps they were all proc-ing for 1 damage). Note that this was posted a page or two ago by someone, so feel free to read that.

[Spekkio]

if i had to conjecture, i would guess that en spells set their maximum damage at the time of instantiation based on the enhancing magic of their caster, then erroneously (at least imo. may be by design.) calculate resists based off the player who is under the effect of the spell. the fact that the bst receiving the en-spell got almost exactly half of your damage out of it, leads me to believe it's resisting, rather than capping out, especially due to the single spike effect.

this would be easy to test. get on a job that has no native enhancing magic and sub scholar which would give a very meager enhancing skill. receive the effect of en-whatever and see what your damage is. after that, activate light arts, giving a b skill in enhancing and see if the mode of the numbers changes and see if the maximum of the numbers change.