Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Toth]

To just add to this enspellga discussion, I am fighting Rumble Crawlers right now and have noticed something interesting. Everyone I cast enblizzard on does 5-10 additional damage. The PLD however is getting 10-15s. So it appears enspells are based on a SCH's enhancing but if someone has a higher enhancing skill level, theirs will take precedence.

[KodoReturns]

To just add to this enspellga discussion, I am fighting Rumble Crawlers right now and have noticed something interesting. Everyone I cast enblizzard on does 5-10 additional damage. The PLD however is getting 10-15s. So it appears enspells are based on a SCH's enhancing but if someone has a higher enhancing skill level, theirs will take precedence.

The damage to be done is based off of the SCHs enhancing skill, but the resist rate procs on every hit, based off of the user's skill. PLD has native enhancing, so it won't be resisted nearly as much. The rest of the melees however, will be getting a lot of partial and full resists.

So, the potency of the En-spell is going to be from the SCHs skill, whereas the accuracy of how often it goes unresisted is going to be from the user.

[Khamsin]

'grats on 75!

Any experience with it in anything endgame-related yet? :X


(And is that really Seers gear? <_<)

Also, what role does SCH have in merit parties, now that someone is actually 75 to know?

[ruf]

The job everyone crapped on before being able to play it now has more pages than dancer! Scholar wins.

[LD]

Er, actually, people were crapping on Dancer more before it was played and Scholar was the favorite. Then it was discovered SCH wouldn't be getting a few desirable spells, then it turned around...

I'd also like to know exactly how Scholar functions in a merit-level PT. Due to their high speed nature and the MP-efficient, yet slow Helixes, it seems like one would have to fall back on their healing and buffing abilities.

[Maxxthepenguin]

To just add to this enspellga discussion, I am fighting Rumble Crawlers right now and have noticed something interesting. Everyone I cast enblizzard on does 5-10 additional damage. The PLD however is getting 10-15s. So it appears enspells are based on a SCH's enhancing but if someone has a higher enhancing skill level, theirs will take precedence.

The damage to be done is based off of the SCHs enhancing skill, but the resist rate procs on every hit, based off of the user's skill. PLD has native enhancing, so it won't be resisted nearly as much. The rest of the melees however, will be getting a lot of partial and full resists.

So, the potency of the En-spell is going to be from the SCHs skill, whereas the accuracy of how often it goes unresisted is going to be from the user.

If the resist rates were based on 0 enhancing skill it would resist 100% of the time.

[Spekkio]

To just add to this enspellga discussion, I am fighting Rumble Crawlers right now and have noticed something interesting. Everyone I cast enblizzard on does 5-10 additional damage. The PLD however is getting 10-15s. So it appears enspells are based on a SCH's enhancing but if someone has a higher enhancing skill level, theirs will take precedence.

The damage to be done is based off of the SCHs enhancing skill, but the resist rate procs on every hit, based off of the user's skill. PLD has native enhancing, so it won't be resisted nearly as much. The rest of the melees however, will be getting a lot of partial and full resists.

So, the potency of the En-spell is going to be from the SCHs skill, whereas the accuracy of how often it goes unresisted is going to be from the user.

If the resist rates were based on 0 enhancing skill it would resist 100% of the time.

both singing/insturment skill as well as chr play a role in the accuracy of songs, it's possible it's partially stat driven for calculating the resist rate of the damage. it would be immensely easy to test though, by the method posted above. get a job w/o native enhancing skill, sub sch, have someone else en-spell you, note damage, then fire up light arts and see if it changes.

[Toth]

I couldn't party long today because of work but I continued to be elated by the results of enspellga. Crawlers and beetles fell much faster with the extra bonus. Plus, it tends to last the entire 4 minutes between Accensions and really adds a great deal of damage (potentially 10-20% extra damage per attack round from the melees) for only 36mp. Add in Haste and Haste Samba and you get insane damage here. Caution, however, for so far this tactic works best when you have a paladin tank and dual wielders. With DRKs, DRGs, and SAMs, the benefit is a bit lessened. Still, extra damage for miniscular MP is always efficient :D

[Kohanacat]

I'll probably get a lot of criticism for saying this, but personally, I wouldn't use my SCH for merit parties - whether they be burn parties, or manaburns. SCH shines in that it can fit multiple roles - it can be a healer in burn parties, or nuke in manaburns - but I have other jobs leveled that can fill either role a lot better in a merit situation.

In a melee/TP Burn party, the ideal setup would be something like healer - support buffer - melee x4, or something a long those lines. SCH - BRD or COR - Melee x4, or even SCH - BRD x2 - Meleex3, are both very viable setups, and with appropriate gear the SCH should not (I didn't) have any problems with MP, so a RDM's ability to Refresh isn't the main issue here. The problem is Haste, and although you can do very well with either of those setups, you aren't going to do nearly as well as a party with a haster in the SCH's slot. You could invite a WHM/RDM/SMN to haste, but honestly a decent mage at this level shouldn't need support healing, and a SCH's nuke's/helices won't keep up with damage output of a melee job. Even if you could keep up for a few fights by spamming nukes constantly, you'd run out of MP eventually. Monsters just die too fast for helix spells to add up well.

I don't do manaburns often, however like melee burns, SCH can fit in here but simply wouldn't be ideal. My opinion might have been different on this if the weather spells weren't so limited with their 2 minute recasts. I've thought of ways around this, but there's just no way to keep the most preferable weathers up (thunder & ice I'd be guessing) on more then 2 BLM on a constant basis. Celerity halves casting time and recast, so if you conserved strategems only for Celerity you should be able to keep 1 weather (thunder maybe) on 2 BLMs almost all the time, then you can cast 1 other weather (ice) on a third BLM. You could Accession > Thunderstorm, and when it wore Accession > Hailstorm as well, rotating between them to keep a preferable bonus on everyone at all times. I'm not 100% you'd always have strategems up (if you started your rotation with full charges and only buffed when battles began, IE not during resting time) but that may be one way to keep everyone buffed.

I'm not a BLM, but I have a feeling with Windstorm, Aero spells with a 10% bonus would not meet the potential of Thunder/Ice spells with potency merits (perhaps even without merits), so you really only have two damage boosting buffs to your disposal, and they only boost one type of element by 10% - so unless the BLM is only using one element to nuke you're contribution to thier total damage would always be bit less then 10% even if weather was always up (assuming all the BLMs you are buffing have the appropriate Obi to keep weather active fulltime). Of course, a SCH has its own nukes and helices to supplement this. I still don't think it can meet the utility of a RDM or the damage potential of a BLM.

Once again, please don't take this post the wrong way - lots of people are asking the role of SCH in a merit situation and how it stands up in this light. This is my opinion, based on my experience leveling SCH. A SCH works fine in either party type, but lacks the ability to excel in either. This is not to say SCH is not a great job overall, or that it doesn't have amazing endgame potential - just that you'll probably almost always find something more efficient to merit with.

Sorry for long post, hope I haven't offended anyone,
Kohana

[Toth]

Interesting stuff, Kohana. In regards to manaburns, a good manaburn should have the BLMs using only four key spells: Blizzard IV, Thunder IV, Blizzaga III, and Thundaga III. The target mobs should be dead or nearly dead after each initial volley IF your BLMs are geared correctly and not terrible. Tier IIIs, stun, and a few other debuff spells can be thrown in as needed to finish the job. The key for SCH is how much your Blizzard III and Thunder III do with and without Ebullience. I suspect quite decently, especially with weather and obis. 4 BLMs 1 BRD and 1 SCH still seems like it will be the elite manaburn setup for me but we shall see.

[Delekii]

Interesting stuff, Kohana. In regards to manaburns, a good manaburn should have the BLMs using only four key spells: Blizzard IV, Thunder IV, Blizzaga III, and Thundaga III. The target mobs should be dead or nearly dead after each initial volley IF your BLMs are geared correctly and not terrible. Tier IIIs, stun, and a few other debuff spells can be thrown in as needed to finish the job. The key for SCH is how much your Blizzard III and Thunder III do with and without Ebullience. I suspect quite decently, especially with weather and obis. 4 BLMs 1 BRD and 1 SCH still seems like it will be the elite manaburn setup for me but we shall see.

What is this, 2004? I haven't used thundaga3 on a single mob for at least a year, if not 2.

Furthermore, 6 member manaburns are not the most efficiant, especially on puddings, AND corsair on average gives almost as much damage bonus as well as an extra form of refresh or exp bonus

[Seigfried Of Pandy]

sorry for the random noob sch question admist all this advanced discussion but all your stratagems combined only have 3 charges or does each specific one have 3 charges? cause i thought it was the latter but from what im reading it seems like the former

[Lordwafik]

Interesting stuff, Kohana. In regards to manaburns, a good manaburn should have the BLMs using only four key spells: Blizzard IV, Thunder IV, Blizzaga III, and Thundaga III. The target mobs should be dead or nearly dead after each initial volley IF your BLMs are geared correctly and not terrible. Tier IIIs, stun, and a few other debuff spells can be thrown in as needed to finish the job. The key for SCH is how much your Blizzard III and Thunder III do with and without Ebullience. I suspect quite decently, especially with weather and obis. 4 BLMs 1 BRD and 1 SCH still seems like it will be the elite manaburn setup for me but we shall see.

aHAHAHAHAHHAhaahhaHAha

This is why you are loltoth.

A good manaburn gives highest damage while conserving the most MP, take a guess what a -ga spell doesn't conserve! I'll give you a hint : It starts with an M, and there's a P in it somewhere.

[Spekkio]

he forgot burst2 too. nothing pisses me off more, even as a taru blm, than watching someone nuke with b2 in dynamis or elsewhere when endurance is an issue. there's a reason i rest only a fraction as much as the other blm. ^^ also, drain is a very good MP/damage ratio. might want to add that to your list of "finishing" spells. ^^

[Toth]

Perhaps I need to clarify a bit as people have grossly misunderstood my information. When I said Thundaga III and Blizzaga III, I was referring to how good manaburns can kill Hilltop Puppetmasters and their maton with a well timed Thundaga III and also -ga wamoura princes for some excellent chains if puddings are full. Throw in Blizzaga 3 instead if Earth Weather or Earthday is up. If you seriously think I would mean nuking with -Gas anytime, then you are looking too hard for something to jump on me

Any BLM worth his salt knows the importance of MP conservation (and I though BG people would understand that with saying but oh well...)

But yes, I did forget Burst and Freeze 2s so shame on me.

edit: Drain and Aspir were kind of a duh since we were taking about spells you want effected by weather - Unless you want the SCH to kill himself casting even more weather spells.

[Lordwafik]

Wow, if I am lol, I'd like to know what you are

Awesome.

[Toth]

Pray tell how you can get an awesome manaburn with 6 BLMs when you kill faster than pops? My best recent manaburn has been 12k an hour killing every pudding that has popped (with 3 Novio BLMs). I haven't cracked 12k yet on princes with the same setup however.

[Kohanacat]

Interesting stuff, Kohana. In regards to manaburns, a good manaburn should have the BLMs using only four key spells: Blizzard IV, Thunder IV, Blizzaga III, and Thundaga III. The target mobs should be dead or nearly dead after each initial volley IF your BLMs are geared correctly and not terrible. Tier IIIs, stun, and a few other debuff spells can be thrown in as needed to finish the job. The key for SCH is how much your Blizzard III and Thunder III do with and without Ebullience. I suspect quite decently, especially with weather and obis. 4 BLMs 1 BRD and 1 SCH still seems like it will be the elite manaburn setup for me but we shall see.

Can you explain why SCH would be ideal over a RDM or COR? If a SCH is using Ebullience there is no way to keep Ice or Thunder weather up on more then 2 BLMs, since like I explained, due to the recast of weather, JA would be necessary. I don't understand what a SCH would be giving to that party that is better then a RDM or COR could give (extra MP through Refresh/Tier III nukes or MAB roll etc). If weather spells could be kept up constantly on more then 2 BLMs while still being able to use Ebullience, I would agree with you, but maybe I'm missing something?? In a situation like you decribe a Helix wouldn't get off more then initial damage + one or two ticks at most. I'm really not trying to be a pessimist, but if SCH really would be an A+ addition to a manaburn I would surely like to try it out. I just don't see how it adds up.

[Lordwafik]

Pray tell how you can get an awesome manaburn with 6 BLMs when you kill faster than pops? My best recent manaburn has been 12k an hour killing every pudding that has popped (with 3 Novio BLMs). I haven't cracked 12k yet on princes with the same setup however.

I split BLMs up and go 3/3 on each side. I hope you're not a "Chain 11" pudding party blm. Those guys annoy me to bits.

[Evelyn]

maybe it would be more useful if a SCH used a helix to pull with? by the time it gets to the BLMs it would have an extra tick or two of damage no?

Maybe I'm just being stupid, I'm not a blm nor do i regularly do manaburns