Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Aemora]

I only tend to Duo or Trio Puddings...

Fuck your shitty Manaburn 6's with gimpy gear on lfp pplz...

...Can easily match your 12k/hr with 3 ppl npnp.

Anyway, this is a lolSch discussion!

[Toth]

Interesting stuff, Kohana. In regards to manaburns, a good manaburn should have the BLMs using only four key spells: Blizzard IV, Thunder IV, Blizzaga III, and Thundaga III. The target mobs should be dead or nearly dead after each initial volley IF your BLMs are geared correctly and not terrible. Tier IIIs, stun, and a few other debuff spells can be thrown in as needed to finish the job. The key for SCH is how much your Blizzard III and Thunder III do with and without Ebullience. I suspect quite decently, especially with weather and obis. 4 BLMs 1 BRD and 1 SCH still seems like it will be the elite manaburn setup for me but we shall see.

Can you explain why SCH would be ideal over a RDM or COR? If a SCH is using Ebullience there is no way to keep Ice or Thunder weather up on more then 2 BLMs, since like I explained, due to the recast of weather, JA would be necessary. I don't understand what a SCH would be giving to that party that is better then a RDM or COR could give (extra MP through Refresh/Tier III nukes or MAB roll etc). If weather spells could be kept up constantly on more then 2 BLMs while still being able to use Ebullience, I would agree with you, but maybe I'm missing something?? In a situation like you decribe a Helix wouldn't get off more then initial damage + one or two ticks at most. I'm really not trying to be a pessimist, but if SCH really would be an A+ addition to a manaburn I would surely like to try it out. I just don't see how it adds up.

Getting back to the real discussion, what are your Thunder IIIs and Blizzard IIIs typically doing with and without Ebullience. That would be a good starting point to seeing about SCH's place in manaburns.

[Spekkio]

Any BLM worth his salt knows the importance of MP conservation (and I though BG people would understand that with saying but oh well...)

heh. haven't seen some of the latest crop of blm, have you? you'd be surprised just how many blm i STILL see nuking trees (without sapling links, mind you) with thundaga3 and burst2 because "it does more damage." /rant off
back on topic though, i think it can be effective in a manaburn under the right situations, but i agree, it will generally be less effective than another blm or a refresh. still, if i had to choose between a sch i was familiar with and was known to be capable and a blm i knew nothing of, i'd take the sch. bad blm will likely do less than a good sch.

[Toth]

Oh yes Spekkio, I have seen them too...but I am hopeful that those who read boards such as these and actually take into heart new strategies and tactics to improve...

[Kaslo]

Any BLM worth his salt knows the importance of MP conservation (and I though BG people would understand that with saying but oh well...)

heh. haven't seen some of the latest crop of blm, have you? you'd be surprised just how many blm i STILL see nuking trees (without sapling links, mind you) with thundaga3 and burst2 because "it does more damage." /rant off
back on topic though, i think it can be effective in a manaburn under the right situations, but i agree, it will generally be less effective than another blm or a refresh. still, if i had to choose between a sch i was familiar with and was known to be capable and a blm i knew nothing of, i'd take the sch. bad blm will likely do less than a good sch.

I have seen them T4 or Burst2 Kirin which is even worse imo >.>

[Toth]

Oh boy Kaslo lol.

Speaking of Kirin, I wonder how SCH will do...

[Max™]

Oh boy Kaslo lol.

Speaking of Kirin, I wonder how SCH will do...

I think they'll do great...


Standing over to the side...


Healing...






While the melees do their thing.

[Toth]

Oh boy Kaslo lol.

Speaking of Kirin, I wonder how SCH will do...

I think they'll do great...


Standing over to the side...


Healing...






While the melees do their thing.

I mean, how they will do nuking wise.

[kuronosan]

They'll be too busy tossing out Cures to really see.

[Seigfried Of Pandy]

worse then blm?

[eva00r]

1 or 2 SCH(s) are worth their places in an ally, I believe.

[chesh]

Any BLM worth his salt knows the importance of MP conservation (and I though BG people would understand that with saying but oh well...)

heh. haven't seen some of the latest crop of blm, have you? you'd be surprised just how many blm i STILL see nuking trees (without sapling links, mind you) with thundaga3 and burst2 because "it does more damage." /rant off
back on topic though, i think it can be effective in a manaburn under the right situations, but i agree, it will generally be less effective than another blm or a refresh. still, if i had to choose between a sch i was familiar with and was known to be capable and a blm i knew nothing of, i'd take the sch. bad blm will likely do less than a good sch.

I have seen them T4 or Burst2 Kirin which is even worse imo >.>

I saw someone casting Blizzard IV on Suzaku.

[ruf]

Sazaku please.

[Starless]

That's because FFXI is full of people that only play the game the way others tell them to. (a.k.a. "Blizzard and Thunder are the best, you don't need the other ones at 75). If I ever leveled BLM to 75, I'd get Flare II just for giggles. I rarely do end-game stuff where it matters to have the others and quite honestly, it looks much cooler.

[Gilthas]

There's a lot more to BLMs using Thunder and Blizzard than "They're all stupid sheep"

[Kyreth]

Little things like Elemental skill (thanks to Ice/Aquilo's staff, RDMs tending to go with Ice merits) and sheer damage (hi2uThunder) because there's simply no way (all other things being equal) for weaker spells to deal the same amount of damage.

(Though it'd be nice if they added a JA which amped the cost but brought the damage of lesser spells up to their Thunder equivalent.)

[Wizerd]

Little things like Elemental skill (thanks to Ice/Aquilo's staff, RDMs tending to go with Ice merits) and sheer damage (hi2uThunder) because there's simply no way (all other things being equal) for weaker spells to deal the same amount of damage.

(Though it'd be nice if they added a JA which amped the cost but brought the damage of lesser spells up to their Thunder equivalent.)

Forgive me if I'm dead wrong, but don't Stone, Water, Aero, and Fire IV have about the same MP efficiency? On longer battles, it seems like it'd be just as good to use those (providing they were meritted and such) as it would be to use Thunder.

However, more things are weak to (or not strong to) either Thunder or Blizzard, and with those 2 spells, just about every mob in the game can be successfully nuked with one or the other (or both), and this is the main reason why BLMs use the 2 elements - am I wrong?

[Toth]

Little things like Elemental skill (thanks to Ice/Aquilo's staff, RDMs tending to go with Ice merits) and sheer damage (hi2uThunder) because there's simply no way (all other things being equal) for weaker spells to deal the same amount of damage.

(Though it'd be nice if they added a JA which amped the cost but brought the damage of lesser spells up to their Thunder equivalent.)

Forgive me if I'm dead wrong, but don't Stone, Water, Aero, and Fire IV have about the same MP efficiency? On longer battles, it seems like it'd be just as good to use those (providing they were meritted and such) as it would be to use Thunder.

However, more things are weak to (or not strong to) either Thunder or Blizzard, and with those 2 spells, just about every mob in the game can be successfully nuked with one or the other (or both), and this is the main reason why BLMs use the 2 elements - am I wrong?

That and the fact that the vast majority of BLMs, myself included, have maxed Blizzard and Thunder Potency. Fire IV, Water IV, Aero IV, and even Stone IV have their limited uses but it continues to be a shame that those spells do not receive any damage bonus on mobs who are weak to that element.

[Wizerd]

Little things like Elemental skill (thanks to Ice/Aquilo's staff, RDMs tending to go with Ice merits) and sheer damage (hi2uThunder) because there's simply no way (all other things being equal) for weaker spells to deal the same amount of damage.

(Though it'd be nice if they added a JA which amped the cost but brought the damage of lesser spells up to their Thunder equivalent.)

Forgive me if I'm dead wrong, but don't Stone, Water, Aero, and Fire IV have about the same MP efficiency? On longer battles, it seems like it'd be just as good to use those (providing they were meritted and such) as it would be to use Thunder.

However, more things are weak to (or not strong to) either Thunder or Blizzard, and with those 2 spells, just about every mob in the game can be successfully nuked with one or the other (or both), and this is the main reason why BLMs use the 2 elements - am I wrong?

That and the fact that the vast majority of BLMs, myself included, have maxed Blizzard and Thunder Potency. Fire IV, Water IV, Aero IV, and even Stone IV have their limited uses but it continues to be a shame that those spells do not receive any damage bonus on mobs who are weak to that element.

Well, the reason BLMs put potency merits into those elements in the first place is because of my reason for BLMs using the elements. They use those elements whether they have potency merits or not.

[Zilong]

Why wouldn't you want to use the 2 element with highest damage and largest coverage on mob weakness/non resistance?

On partying, you have like only a few shot at the mob before it dies, so you want to pop your strongest nuke.

On soloing, if you can kill a mob with say 3 Thunder IV/Blizzard IV, you can't really say the same with 3 Stone IV. Even if MP efficiency is the same, having to throw an extra nuke is a waste of MP on the debilitating spell (bind/gravity/sleep) and the additional nuke spell (Drain, lower tier elemental to finish off the remaining), not to mention time that could get you that extra chain.