Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Starless]

Why wouldn't you want to use the 2 element with highest damage and largest coverage on mob weakness/non resistance?

On partying, you have like only a few shot at the mob before it dies, so you want to pop your strongest nuke.

On soloing, if you can kill a mob with say 3 Thunder IV/Blizzard IV, you can't really say the same with 3 Stone IV. Even if MP efficiency is the same, having to throw an extra nuke is a waste of MP on the debilitating spell (bind/gravity/sleep) and the additional nuke spell (Drain, lower tier elemental to finish off the remaining), not to mention time that could get you that extra chain.

Because Fire spells look cooler than Thunder/Ice spells.

On topic and slightly related to my last sentence, do the storm/helix spells look neat or are they boring without any defining animations to them?

[Sci]

Forgive me if I'm dead wrong, but don't Stone, Water, Aero, and Fire IV have about the same MP efficiency? On longer battles, it seems like it'd be just as good to use those (providing they were meritted and such) as it would be to use Thunder.

Tier 1 spells only have high efficiency when you have much higher INT than your target. Race/gear really changes the point where Tier IVs have more efficiency than Stone and whatnot, but for me I think it's the enemy having around 80 INT. But also keep in mind, spamming Tier 1s is going to feed a crapton of TP. One of the advantages BLMs still hold today is a very nice damage to TP given ratio.

[Evelyn]

Forgive me if I'm dead wrong, but don't Stone, Water, Aero, and Fire IV have about the same MP efficiency? On longer battles, it seems like it'd be just as good to use those (providing they were meritted and such) as it would be to use Thunder.

Tier 1 spells only have high efficiency when you have much higher INT than your target. Race/gear really changes the point where Tier IVs have more efficiency than Stone and whatnot, but for me I think it's the enemy having around 80 INT. But also keep in mind, spamming Tier 1s is going to feed a crapton of TP. One of the advantages BLMs still hold today is a very nice damage to TP given ratio.

I believe he was referring to Stone IV, Water IV, Aero IV, and Fire IV in reference to Thunder IV and Blizzard IV. I think we can all figure out that using Tier 1s is stupid and a waste of time.

[Spekkio]

Forgive me if I'm dead wrong, but don't Stone, Water, Aero, and Fire IV have about the same MP efficiency? On longer battles, it seems like it'd be just as good to use those (providing they were meritted and such) as it would be to use Thunder.

Tier 1 spells only have high efficiency when you have much higher INT than your target. Race/gear really changes the point where Tier IVs have more efficiency than Stone and whatnot, but for me I think it's the enemy having around 80 INT. But also keep in mind, spamming Tier 1s is going to feed a crapton of TP. One of the advantages BLMs still hold today is a very nice damage to TP given ratio.

at the risk of getting wooshed, i think he meant stone IV, aero IV, etc. not t1 spells then suddenly jumping to fireIV. still, he brings up a good point that TIII is a very effective spell many of the crop of lousy blm seem to have forgotten they can cast. true, it doesn't produce numbers like TIV, but it doesn't cost like TIV either. overnuking only overtaxes your whm who must spend 250 MP to put your e-peen hunting ass back together, not to mention your own downtime. there are times to pull hate and times not to as blm, but fafnir at 80% (just using this as an example. i know very well that fafnir isn't exactly hard.) may not be the wisest place to do that. /rant off.

[Sci]

Forgive me if I'm dead wrong, but don't Stone, Water, Aero, and Fire IV have about the same MP efficiency? On longer battles, it seems like it'd be just as good to use those (providing they were meritted and such) as it would be to use Thunder.

Tier 1 spells only have high efficiency when you have much higher INT than your target. Race/gear really changes the point where Tier IVs have more efficiency than Stone and whatnot, but for me I think it's the enemy having around 80 INT. But also keep in mind, spamming Tier 1s is going to feed a crapton of TP. One of the advantages BLMs still hold today is a very nice damage to TP given ratio.

I believe he was referring to Stone IV, Water IV, Aero IV, and Fire IV in reference to Thunder IV and Blizzard IV. I think we can all figure out that using Tier 1s is stupid and a waste of time.

Oops, missed that IV after Fire there. Pretty sneaky sis. Although I believe a BLM with fully merited Thunder potency has higher efficiency with Thunder III over Stone IV on almost anything. The tier IVs spells go up in potency and damage with Thunder and Blizzard being higher than the rest in regards to both. And even if Blizzard IV wasn't one of the top damaging spells, it would still hold a special place simply because of Aquilo's Staff.

[Vhess]

As a 66 BLM, I appreciate all the info.

However, I'm actually reading this thread to learn about Scholar. Anyone have any new Scholar info or anything else related to Scholar?

[Evelyn]

this IS scholar information. The comparisson of nuking numbers between different elements is very pertinent, since if its similar, we can be in parties with multiple BLMs and weather buff them all without worrying about charge times. If not, we're back to the same issue where we're limited by the long recast time.

EDIT: Speaking of which, now we know we can't cheat by trying to use less common elements for extra BLMs, how much haste/fast cast gear can we put on to get that recast as low as possible? and how low can we get it?

[Priran]

On topic and slightly related to my last sentence, do the storm/helix spells look neat or are they boring without any defining animations to them?

Helix spells are an elementally colored swirly-whooshy effect like the one on Dia II or Regen III, followed by a fairly dull animation of the appropriate element (big ice chunk, large flying stones, whatever).

Weather weren't much better, I think they looked kind of like barspells?

[shukuffxi]

Has anyone tested if the proper Quick Draw enhances Helix spells?

[Aemora]

That's because FFXI is full of people that only play the game the way others tell them to. (a.k.a. "Blizzard and Thunder are the best, you don't need the other ones at 75). If I ever leveled BLM to 75, I'd get Flare II just for giggles. I rarely do end-game stuff where it matters to have the others and quite honestly, it looks much cooler.

I merited Tornado, Flare and Freeze once, then 3 Bursts. It's nice not being bound to just 2 AMs for E-Peen... I have Thunder for E-Peen, and my other spells ofr usefulness in certain situations (Flare against Mad Bomber, per example).

Plus it looks cool >.>

Anywho, just a comment for all those disappointed that Scholar didn't get Haste or Erase or Sleep naturally... When Corsair got released, they had 8 Elemental Shots that did damage. Then they patched it so that Dark Shot was Dispel, and Light Shot was Sleep. I have faith, no matter how dilluded it may be, that Square-Enix will indeed heed the calls of the gaming public, and perhaps, in future updates, alter Scholar the way they did the effectiveness of Corsair, from Light/Dark Shots, to the strengthening of the Roll in the August patch. It's a job that's less than a month old, let's not heavily criticise it's place in end-game just yet.

And where the fuck is my Corsair Af2 dammit?! Calling Regain Roll for Dancer, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand idk... Weather Roll for Sch? Enhances Day/Weather effects on a player (for whatever retarded reason).

[Priran]

I think SCH roll is going to be Fast Cast or Conserve MP.

For DNC, max MP/HP? Haste? I dunno, regain seems redundant considering SAM roll is basically the same thing with the stipulation that you hit the mob.

[Wizerd]

Anywho, just a comment for all those disappointed that Scholar didn't get Haste or Erase or Sleep naturally... When Corsair got released, they had 8 Elemental Shots that did damage. Then they patched it so that Dark Shot was Dispel, and Light Shot was Sleep. I have faith, no matter how dilluded it may be, that Square-Enix will indeed heed the calls of the gaming public, and perhaps, in future updates, alter Scholar the way they did the effectiveness of Corsair, from Light/Dark Shots, to the strengthening of the Roll in the August patch. It's a job that's less than a month old, let's not heavily criticise it's place in end-game just yet.

Actually, I think criticizing the way SE built the job is probably the best way to have them change it. Of course, simply QQing about the job won't make them do anything, but if you're concerned about how the job plays, throw a suggestion in their handy little box. I assume that's why COR buffs were pumped up, and Light Shot / Dark Shot altered.

Also, my point about the elements thing was basically that the reason BLMs merit potency of Blizzard and Thunder is because those 2 elements cover the widest array of mobs, not because they're the strongest of the elements in each tier.

If the order of elements was Aero, Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, Stone, Water, how many BLMs here are gonna tell me they'd merit Stone and Water potency? There aren't enough mobs weak(or even neutral) to one or both of those elements to justify it compared to Blizzard and Thunder.

[BRP]

If the order of elements was Aero, Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, Stone, Water, how many BLMs here are gonna tell me they'd merit Stone and Water potency? There aren't enough mobs weak(or even neutral) to one or both of those elements to justify it compared to Blizzard and Thunder.

If Stone and Water were the strongest spells, then almost every BLM would have it merited.

[Lordwafik]

If the order of elements was Aero, Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, Stone, Water, how many BLMs here are gonna tell me they'd merit Stone and Water potency? There aren't enough mobs weak(or even neutral) to one or both of those elements to justify it compared to Blizzard and Thunder.

Every BLM would merit the strongest two. Why do you say there's monsters that aren't neutral? For example, if it was puddings, they are water based, so you'd use stone. In sky on fire eles, you'd use stone. On golems either would work, etc. Fafnir is fire based and thunder works best still.

Unfortunatey for FFXI's BLM spells, unlike all the other games, spells are only strong the later you learn it. Thunder is stronger on the spell list, and is learnt later. All AM2 do equal damage and are learnt at the same time.

[Kaeko]

It becomes more about what the mob is not strong to rather than what it is weak to once you get 75 and all the merits/gear. It's just a bonus that Blizzard and Thunder happen to be the types with the most weaknesses, but it's the strength of the spell most go for.

That being said, I think the same would be applied for SCH and Helices... Assuming they all do scale, Light and Dark become the dominant spells sans weather effects. I don't know of many things strong to both so it seems like a nice thing that the 2 strongest types are Dark and Light.

[Kohanacat]

Cool! More SCH Ballista testing!

Does using Manifestation on a single target spell remove shadows from the people in hits?
Yes! I was on SCH/blm and Vylia on SAM/nin. Vylia used Utsusemi: Ichi and I casted Manifestation > Blind on Vylia. It cleared all shadows and Blinded Vylia.

Can more then 1 Modus Veritas be applied to the same Helix?
Yes! All credit goes to Spekkio for this idea. (Sorry it took so long for me to try it out!) This time we used Vylia's COR to recharge my Modus Veritas, and a 3rd character I was 2boxing on the opposite team to take all the damage. :D

I casted Ebullience > Luminohelix > Modus Veritas, Vylia used Wild Card to recharge my abilities, and then I used Modus Veritas again.

The initial damage hit for 59, and one tick got of before the second Modus Veritas for 118, then it ticked 1 more time for 236 after the second Modus Veritas was used. We're trying to repeat it but I'm having no luck with quarrying revitalizers or Random Deal..

[Wizerd]

If the order of elements was Aero, Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, Stone, Water, how many BLMs here are gonna tell me they'd merit Stone and Water potency? There aren't enough mobs weak(or even neutral) to one or both of those elements to justify it compared to Blizzard and Thunder.

Every BLM would merit the strongest two. Why do you say there's monsters that aren't neutral? For example, if it was puddings, they are water based, so you'd use stone. In sky on fire eles, you'd use stone. On golems either would work, etc. Fafnir is fire based and thunder works best still.

Unfortunatey for FFXI's BLM spells, unlike all the other games, spells are only strong the later you learn it. Thunder is stronger on the spell list, and is learnt later. All AM2 do equal damage and are learnt at the same time.

Well then, in an effort to understand BLM more, I change my stance. Perhaps it comes from the past idea that Distortion was the only good skillchain to make while leveling MNK (and hating it), and Fragmentation was hard to make. Fusion always worked fine for me, but everyone seemed against it. *shrug* Damn aquatic mobs from lv15 to 60.

Sorta Edit: Kaeko I hate you <_< I hit reply at 10pm and went off to work, I get here and find this "someone posted before you, you sure you want to post?" thing, lol. 11:30 now, but still posting it!

[Kaeko]

Cool! More SCH Ballista testing!

Does using Manifestation on a single target spell remove shadows from the people in hits?
Yes! I was on SCH/blm and Vylia on SAM/nin. Vylia used Utsusemi: Ichi and I casted Manifestation > Blind on Vylia. It cleared all shadows and Blinded Vylia.

Can more then 1 Modus Veritas be applied to the same Helix?
Yes! All credit goes to Spekkio for this idea. (Sorry it took so long for me to try it out!) This time we used Vylia's COR to recharge my Modus Veritas, and a 3rd character I was 2boxing on the opposite team to take all the damage. :D

I casted Ebullience > Luminohelix > Modus Veritas, Vylia used Wild Card to recharge my abilities, and then I used Modus Veritas again.

The initial damage hit for 59, and one tick got of before the second Modus Veritas for 118, then it ticked 1 more time for 236 after the second Modus Veritas was used. We're trying to repeat it but I'm having no luck with quarrying revitalizers or Random Deal..

Based on Spekkio's idea, all that needs to be verified is the "rounding" of ticks left. For instance, if you suddenly use x5 Modus Veritas when only 1 tick remains, does it "round down" and give you 0 ticks? If this were to be the case, Modus Veritas can hurt you.

If it always gives you one tick no matter what (or "rounds up"), then is it clearly abusable as Spekkio suggested. The fact that the x2 effect stacks instead of doubling the original damage makes each new use of Modus Veritas exponentially stronger. Assuming the original Helix did just 20 damage...

20
40 (1 MV)
80 (2 MV)
160 (3 MV)
320 (4 MV)
640 (5 MV)
1280 (6 MV)
2560 (7 MV)
5120 (8 MV)
10240 (9 MV)
20480 (10 MV)
40960 (11 MV)
81920 (12 MV)
163840 (13 MV)
...

Tiamat has 120,000 HP; Dynamis Lord 80,000 HP; and AV can't have more than 200,000 HP... I think there has to be a cap (or will need to be a cap) on the number of MVs that can be stacked, OR it does round down and it can possibly hurt you to use MV too many times on 1 Helix.

If not, it this would make for some pretty funny "Scholar Burns" before an inevitable nerf - Tiamat dying from a 163840 damage DoT...

[LD]

The long ticks make anything beyond 3~4 MVs impossible (if totally unresisted.) There's enough evidence in the game that shows an effect can and will end before its next tick (laggy Meditate, et al.) What that means is you could only lower it enough to allow for 1 more tick after the Helix first lands, any more and the effect will end before it occurs.

[Kohanacat]

I understand what you all are saying but I have no idea how to test wether or not it rounds until I can make my helices land for a consistant duration. I've been really busy with overdue housework and Christmasy stuff the pat 2 days so I haven't got much testing done, but I would really like my next major project to be duration. Since the number of ticks is varying randomly for me right now, I won't know if its rounding or not since I won't know what the full duration was meant to be. D:....

I figure it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what effects it though.. I'm 2 luminian tissues away from an obi so I'll start my testing as oon as that is complete.. :D