Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[LD]

Yes, but we can apply what we know of DOTs to come to a reasonable and likely conclusion. Since Med and sometimes refresh can lose a tic due to dynamic forces such as lag, that's enough of a foundation for the concept. Since practically no mathematical caluclations round up in this game, it's unlikely an effect would give you a free extra tic after the effect has ended.

If the tic is every 5 seconds and you drop it below that before the next tic, you will get a 'the effect has worn off' message and there will be no next tic.

[Havok]

Except that the ability also halves the remaining duration of the spell.

Except, the failure to read the rest of the posts makes your statement invalid. Sorry! :/

I've read this entire thread.

As others have already pointed out, I think it's pretty absurd to think you're going to get 100k damage or anything close to that out of a helix spell. If for some reason you can, it's going to be nerfed, because it's stupid.

[Delekii]

No other DoT spells have duration dynamically applied after application (aside from removal.)

We don't know the rules for this

We do know that when faced with a choice between rounding up or rounding down, ffxi developers round down 9.9 times out of 10. You are right, we don't know for sure in this case, but as mentioned, even if we are wrong, by the time there are enough scholars at 75 that it would be useful, it will no longer be the case.

[Kaeko]

I just find the concept interesting; however, regardless of how it works it's not like you can develop any long term strategy out of the result since if it does happen to work it'll be nerfed.

[Pergo]

i understand how stuff rounds down consistently, but it's said that the dot from helix's take their course similarly to resting ticks (10sec)... so unless modus veritas forces the next tick (Ex: immeadiately after landing helix, using modus veritas forces the next tick), you'd have time (10 sec) to pump up the final tick.

normal helix with 5 ticks:
20:00:00- scholar casts helix for 100 dmg.
20:00:10- 100dmg tick 1.
20:00:20- 100dmg tick 2.
20:00:30- 100dmg tick 3.
20:00:40- 100dmg tick 4.
20:00:50- 100dmg tick 5. helix effect wears off.

so it stacking modus veritas either be like:


situation 1 (unable to stack):

20:00:00- scholar1 casts helix for 100dmg.
20:00:01- scholar1 uses MV. 200dmg tick 1.
20:00:02- scholar2 uses MV. 400dmg tick 2.
20:00:03- scholar3 uses MV. 800dmg tick 3. helix effect wears off.

or

situation 2 (can stack as many as possible):

20:00:00- scholar1 casts helix for 100dmg.
20:00:01- scholar 1 uses MV.
20:00:02- scholar 2 uses MV.
20:00:03- scholar 3 uses MV.
20:00:10- 400dmg tick 1. helix effect wears off.


now if situation 2 is how it works, you can insert as many sch with MV between 20:00:00 and 20:00:10 to pump up the damage for 1 massive tick, but as kaeko said, if this is the case, it's most likely to be nerfed

[kuronosan]

Regardless, if the helix spells work like resting HP/MP tics, then they're not at all useful. Cold Wave does what... 20hp/tic for about 30 seconds (which amounts to maybe 200-250 damage for 38mp-ish) while most DOTs do 1-10 damage a tic and are stackable... not to mention that the damage lasts a considerable amount of time depending on your enfeebling skill.

I'd say unless these helices do anything other than what they do now, they're just a waste of time. What's the difference between 300 damage straight up and 300 damage over 1:30 seconds besides the inability to keep the mob slept?

[Pergo]

well it's always good to have additional forms of dot, but the big interest in the MV stacking is the possibility to do a 1-shot dot tick

[LD]

Your concept of situation 2 is flawed, pergo, since it appears to assume additional MVs wouldn't continue to reduce duration (and 3 MVs cause the next tick to be 800, not 400.) With a 90 second duration, 3 MVs reduce it to a little over 11 seconds. Any additional uses would cause the Helix to have a ~6 second or lower total duration, ending it before the next 10 second tic.

6 MVs is the maximum you could use and still have a whole second to work with. Even then, it would take an ungodly amount of cooperation and timing and it could only work if the next tic doesn't happen immediately and happens much sooner than any tics afterwards. There's absolutely nothing to support the idea that either of those could be true.

Why would SE make special rules for a DOT that, for all intents and purposes, is simply a super-powered version of dia/bio?

[Pergo]

i fixed the 400>800 mv thing.

and i was under the impression that MV would cut down the duration as in remaining ticks, rather than the actual duration. but i'm not sure , i'm only 62sch atm... once i hit 65 i have 2 jp sch friends that i can test this out with

[Wizerd]

That's not how ANY other DOT effects work. :/
A spell effect is not a set number of tics, it's a set amount of time. An effect is only granted on a tic within the duration. If the effect has died before the next tic, then how are you getting...anything?

Meditate lag should have put this part of the discussion to an end. ;x

I've never seen Meditate give less than 100 TP, nor less than 60 TP subbed, so I'm not too sure what you're talking about.

Anyway, it's safe to assume that LD is right, I think, but it could still be used to our advantage.

If the duration is "5 ticks of DOT plus the starting damage", that makes it 60 seconds assuming 12 seconds per tick (initial damage, then 12 second wait for the first tick). Now, if you had the SCHs apply MV after 11 seconds, it'll have 49 left on it, and 1 second until the effect hits. 49 -> 24 -> 12 -> 6 -> 3 -> 1, so you could apply 5 MVs assuming the second rounded down, or possibly 6 with good timing, but unlikely any more than that.

Edit: oops didn't see new page, will read that then possibly edit this post!

Edit2:

6 MVs is the maximum you could use and still have a whole second to work with. Even then, it would take an ungodly amount of cooperation and timing and it could only work if the next tic doesn't happen immediately and happens much sooner than any tics afterwards. There's absolutely nothing to support the idea that either of those could be true.

Well, apparently LD basically said it before me. <_<

[Judai]

Sometimes, if you Meditate right after zoning or lag out as you Meditate you lose a tic.

[Jer]

The effect also happens when using Sleeping Potions, and I would assume it's the same principle. I've been cheated numerous times.

[Rionel]

Anywho, just a comment for all those disappointed that Scholar didn't get Haste or Erase or Sleep naturally... When Corsair got released, they had 8 Elemental Shots that did damage. Then they patched it so that Dark Shot was Dispel, and Light Shot was Sleep. I have faith, no matter how dilluded it may be, that Square-Enix will indeed heed the calls of the gaming public, and perhaps, in future updates, alter Scholar the way they did the effectiveness of Corsair, from Light/Dark Shots, to the strengthening of the Roll in the August patch. It's a job that's less than a month old, let's not heavily criticise it's place in end-game just yet.

I remember when they updated Corsair like that. It was utterly ridiculous (in a totally awesome kind of way).

Thinking about Quick Draw though, in addition to it only being 8 types of damage shots when it first came out, it was on a 3 minute recast timer (!). They brought it down all the way to 1 minute and fully meriting it made it every 50 seconds...

Which brings me to Stratagems. The recast of 4 minutes seems a little too lengthy too me. Maybe even shorten it to 3 minutes? 2 minutes might be a little much... but I'm not sure, what do you guys think? Kinda makes you wish that they'd lower the recast of Divine Seal and Elemental Seal after seeing Scholar's 4 minute Stratagems:

10 minutes x2 cure/magic accuracy
Vs
4 minutes potency, 1/2 MP Cost, AoE or 1/2 cast/recast time

Maybe it's equalized enough as it is right now? I'm probably not gauging the usefulness of these abilities properly as I have absolutely no experience with magic jobs, but I guess I can at least throw in a few ideas to see if they're viable somehow ( and hopefully will be corrected if need be ^^; ).

Maybe one day, Divine Seal and Elemental Seal will be down to 5 minutes and Stratagems 2 minutes!? If only...

And please, please SE! For all that is holy and sacred, please give Scholar Haste! @_@ WHM and RDM have it, sure. But would it really hurt to have another job that can cast Haste? Really? Honestly? Some higher tier Regen would be nice too (They appear to be masters of DoT after all. At least Regen III?). Maybe I'm asking for too much...

[aru]

WHM and RDM have it, sure. But would it really hurt to have another job that can cast Haste? Really? Honestly?

summoner

[TT]

messed around as 40 SCH in campaign and noticed that with accession your spells are AoEs for NPCs. was very nice using Cure 3 and healing 6-10 NPCs, worked same for protect/shell. made me wonder, despite its wording, if accession can curaga parties outside your own.

[Rionel]

WHM and RDM have it, sure. But would it really hurt to have another job that can cast Haste? Really? Honestly?

summoner

Touché.

[safer]

I've never seen Meditate give less than 100 TP, nor less than 60 TP subbed, so I'm not too sure what you're talking about.
[/quote]


idk if its a salvage exclusive thing, but alot of times, our sam gets like 60tp meditates with AF gloves on (idk which ever piece that boosts meditate)
really annoying when trying to SC gears in bhaflau D;

messed around as 40 SCH in campaign and noticed that with accession your spells are AoEs for NPCs. was very nice using Cure 3 and healing 6-10 NPCs, worked same for protect/shell. made me wonder, despite its wording, if accession can curaga parties outside your own.

hopefully it works like Divine Veil for whms, where you can cast paralyna or something on an entire party outside your own, could have interesting uses. Ive been in situations where party members in another alliance are lacking on curaga's, and a scholar in 1 party that can take care of melee's in another could leave room for another DD instead of healer...

[Deftscythe]

I don't know about Salvage, but I've noticed that Meditate will stop ticking if you use a port in sky.

[ruf]

As well as Whm, Rdm, and Smn giving the regular effect, Bards have 2 march songs, Dancers have weapon delay samba, Samurai and Blue Mage can both give themselves 10% haste. I think there are plenty of ways to manage in the haste department (yes I understand how nice and useful it is to TP faster or recast a second earlier, but I think the "need" for another haste is not as great as people make it out to be).

[Maxxthepenguin]

As well as Whm, Rdm, and Smn giving the regular effect, Bards have 2 march songs, Dancers have weapon delay samba, Samurai and Blue Mage can both give themselves 10% haste. I think there are plenty of ways to manage in the haste department (yes I understand how nice and useful it is to TP faster or recast a second earlier, but I think the "need" for another haste is not as great as people make it out to be).

You don't know how haste works do you

It gets better with more, so enough is impossible (unless you hit the cap)