Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Max™]

Wait, /Smn Auto-Refresh is 200 MP per Minute?

Is that right? That doesn't seem right.

More like 20 >_>

Yeah, I was like "WAIT WHAT, HOLD THE PHONE THERE!"

200 Mp/Minute and you'd be ignant to not sub it.

[LD]

It should (come to) be obvious to SE that no mages other than WHM are subbing SCH, so SS & Blink will probably be added at 37 & under eventually. If it weren't for ES, I'd say /BLM doesn't have much of anything over /SCH for RDM, but there a go. :x Elemental and Dark would be the only sets of spells with which Dark Arts could add more acc than ES, but RDM has A+ Enfeeble for a reason. :/ In the end, SE would only be making SS/Blink native on /SCH for the benefit of BLM. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do it, but when you remember WHM & RDM already have the spells, SCH not having them makes a bit more sense (though it should still be rectified.)

Still, I think /SCH looks like a better /BLM alt for RDM than people seem to be giving it credit for. ES is a 10 minute ability for a single spell...IMO, DS from /WHM seems like a more effective ability, due to Convert, but what do I know? ¬¬ The MP & Casting abilities and regen 2 may not be much, but in some situations, it may give you more than sleepga & ES does.

For a job tagged to be a super-adaptable jack-of-all-trades, its only advantage seems to be in damage (and it doesn't appear to be much of one at that.) I don't think it really needs native refresh or gravity, but haste would probably be the only way it would ever have a decent shot at merits, even if one didn't use Accession with it. After that, continuing the trend of early Regen spells would really help the job come into its own (as well as finally adding Regen 4 to the game as a SCH exclusive.)



Still waiting for Libra. -_-

[Lordwafik]

Scholar is the first support job that doesn't support the job

[LD]

Well, right now /RDM & /WHM bring much more to the table, but in the case of /BLM, it could be debatable.

[Rocl]

Still, I think /SCH looks like a better /BLM alt for RDM than people seem to be giving it credit for. ES is a 10 minute ability for a single spell...IMO, DS from /WHM seems like a more effective ability, due to Convert, but what do I know? ¬¬ The MP & Casting abilities and regen 2 may not be much, but in some situations, it may give you more than sleepga & ES does.

The only reasons I sub BLM are Sleepga, Elemental Seal, and Escape. As for the bit about Elemental Seal, if you're fighting a debuff resistant mob, when you land the spell it almost always lands for full duration. For things like Slow and Paralyze, I'm fairly certain it's damn near 6 minutes or more. I haven't subbed BLM to debuff in a long time though, so someone may correct me, but it's most certainly over 5 minutes.

[LD]

Hmm, that is a good point. I'll just assume most HNM are debuff resistant, and since I can't really conceive of a situation where a RDM would be exping and not be using /WHM (or /NIN in solo), it does seem to lose a bit of its shine.
The only way /SCH could be useful for RDM would be in a situation where it didn't need any of WHM's spells or ES. :/

Anyway, this just futher highlights its failings as a sub job. If Scholar were given SS/Blink, would Dark Arts, the slight Int advantage, and the first two strats be enough to edge out /RDM for BLM?

[Rocl]

Hmm, that is a good point. I'll just assume most HNM are debuff resistant, and since I can't really conceive of a situation where a RDM would be exping and not be using /WHM (or /NIN in solo), it does seem to lose a bit of its shine.
The only way /SCH could be useful for RDM would be in a situation where it didn't need any of WHM's spells or ES. :/

I can land debuffs reliably enough on Tiamat, Nidhogg, and what not without BLM. It's ToAU Kings that suck royally and require BLM sub.

Anyway, this just futher highlights its failings as a sub job. If Scholar were given SS/Blink, would Dark Arts, the slight Int advantage, and the first two strats be enough to edge out /RDM for BLM?

Depends. Gravity is really nice.

[ruf]

Maybe, but there's still gravity, if other blms use that too.

edit: too slow D:

[LD]

Yea, but the only situation you'd really need it where a RDM probably wont be around would be manaburn. Most organized events have at least one, and they land it more easily.

[ruf]

Guess I was thinking more along the lines of solo/small group stuff.

[Delekii]

Don't really need blink, but if it got stoneskin scholar would be the best pure DD sub for BLM.. that said, you lose so much bloody functionality by not subbing /WHM (in terms of support ability) or RDM (losing gravity and dispel), that really the only time I can see myself subbing it even with stoneskin is if there are more than enough people already at the camp - doing extra damage just isn't worth losing that kind of support ability in most scenarios I think..

[EdgeMoragan]

Maybe we should use LOLfeedback and start requesting Stoneskin in mass before this goes the way of PUP improvements....

[Custom M]

Scholar is the first support job that doesn't support the job

It's also the first that actually enhances the job. Other mage support jobs only add new functions.

[Byrthnoth]

On BLM, the only place I don't keep Blink/Stoneskin up is when I'm out soloing. The only reason I can do that is because Gravity stops the monster from hitting me. If /SCH offered Gravity, I might consider using it over /RDM for those situations. If it offered Blink and Stoneskin, I might consider using it over /WHM. It offers neither, so I wouldn't consider using it as a sub for BLM.

In situations where I know my tank will hold hate regardless of what I do, then I might sub SCH. I've never been in one of those, but if I am I'll be sure to note what I sub. I mean, Cure III is 46MP for 200HP restored. Stoneskin is 29MP for an invisible, hateless 350HP pool. If you're probably going to end up taking damage at some point, it's pretty clear which is more MP efficient. Harder to quantify, but Blink is 20MP for 2 shadows. Once upon a time I absorbed ~1600 damage off one Blink (2 Thunder 4s), and probably the least damage I've absorbed with it during events is ~300. Those spells are pretty hard for me to give up.

[BRP]

I don't really care about Scholar being a bad or good sub job, I'm more concern with the main job being useful. Like I said, they are basically ghetto RDMs without enfeebles. I'd wish they would let you apply stratagems to other mages, that'd make it popular. SCH+RDM = Refreshga. SCH+WHM=Reraisega III. Then they'd just need to make more useful self-targeted spells for other mages(BLM, WHM) and SCH could let them share that love. Also, Refresh.

[Kaslo]

I don't really care about Scholar being a bad or good sub job, I'm more concern with the main job being useful. Like I said, they are basically ghetto RDMs without enfeebles. I'd wish they would let you apply stratagems to other mages, that'd make it popular. SCH+RDM = Refreshga. SCH+WHM=Reraisega III. Then they'd just need to make more useful self-targeted spells for other mages(BLM, WHM) and SCH could let them share that love. Also, Refresh.

I smell a meritable group 2 ability >.>

[Xno Kappa]

I don't really care about Scholar being a bad or good sub job, I'm more concern with the main job being useful. Like I said, they are basically ghetto RDMs without enfeebles. I'd wish they would let you apply stratagems to other mages, that'd make it popular. SCH+RDM = Refreshga. SCH+WHM=Reraisega III. Then they'd just need to make more useful self-targeted spells for other mages(BLM, WHM) and SCH could let them share that love. Also, Refresh.

I smell a meritable group 2 ability >.>

On an initial 20 minute recast timer.

[Dakana]

I don't really care about Scholar being a bad or good sub job, I'm more concern with the main job being useful. Like I said, they are basically ghetto RDMs without enfeebles. I'd wish they would let you apply stratagems to other mages, that'd make it popular. SCH+RDM = Refreshga. SCH+WHM=Reraisega III. Then they'd just need to make more useful self-targeted spells for other mages(BLM, WHM) and SCH could let them share that love. Also, Refresh.

I smell a meritable group 2 ability >.>

On an initial 20 minute recast timer.

Only have to case RRIII-ga once an hour :D

[Starless]

Give SCH a self-target onry refresh and I'd be content.

[BRP]

I don't really care about Scholar being a bad or good sub job, I'm more concern with the main job being useful. Like I said, they are basically ghetto RDMs without enfeebles. I'd wish they would let you apply stratagems to other mages, that'd make it popular. SCH+RDM = Refreshga. SCH+WHM=Reraisega III. Then they'd just need to make more useful self-targeted spells for other mages(BLM, WHM) and SCH could let them share that love. Also, Refresh.

I smell a meritable group 2 ability >.>

Ah, reality crashing down on me. Feels pleasant.