Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[LD]

I don't think giving Scholar Gravity is the best idea. 'Cuz then, why would you sub RDM?
Delekii said /SCH (with SS added) would be a pure damage sub for BLM, I think that's really what it should be aiming for: A specific sub for a specific task. If you want to focus on your DD, /SCH. If you want or need more flexibility, you go /WHM or /RDM. We don't need to completely marginalize other subs to make this one comparable. Stoneskin is the only thing it absolutely needs to be a better sub, since that baseline of survivability is required to compete with the current favorites.

As for SCH as a main job, currently it's weak for merit. The Helixes, while MP efficient, are not time efficient, and that's a major problem for the fast-paced melee & mana burns. Giving the job haste and the last 2 Regen spells would be enough to give it functionality and a slight edge over other healers.

[Aemora]

SCH/???

• - /Whm : Buffs, ~ga of certain spells, best support for allies, Enspellga
  - /Rdm : Gravity AoE, Fast Cast, Enspellga
  - /Blm : Elemental Seal, higher INT, moar Dmg
  - /Smn + /Brd : Little to no functionality

???/SCH

• - Whm : JAs allow further use of better MP consumption
  - Rdm : Seems the best main to sub Scholar to, but Rdm has so many varieties of Subjob (Drk, Blm, Whm), each dependant on the situation the job is demanded
  - Blm : No Self-defensive buffs, good for Controlled Ally HNM fights, not for Manaburns
  - Smn + Brd : Again, little to no functionality

Oh, and I tested Blm/Sch at Justice the other day... Alacrity > Burst2 = Dead baby 1 shotted

Burst2 got off before T3 with max Fast Cast gearz

[LD]

SCH/???

• - /Whm : Buffs, ~ga of certain spells, best support for allies, Enspellga
  - /Rdm : Gravity AoE, Fast Cast, Enspellga
  - /Blm : Elemental Seal, higher INT, moar Dmg
  - /Smn + /Brd : Little to no functionality

Going to assume you meant Barspellga, and technically, you can do the same with RDM. SCH can do Prot/Shell 4 on its own and turn it into a -ga. All /WHM really gives over /RDM is Erase, a few -nas, and DS. /RDM also gives Phalanxga & Dispelga. /BLM gives practically nothing besides ES, CMP, and more INT. /RDM also gives MAB 1, which is +20%. MAB 2 is only an additional 4%.

We've already covered why /SCH is a weak sub for RDM and it's long since been established that /SCH is best with WHM.

[BRP]

People who are posting their opinions on SCH subs are using terrible wording and/or skipping things for some jobs and not for others...

Here is an entire look at what the jobs give, save Attributes and Skill:

(Note: This is at 75. Different jobs learn spells at different times which makes a big difference while leveling)

/BLM
-Poison/Poisonga, Blind, Bind, BioI/II, Blaze/Ice/Shock Spikes, Warp, Sleep/Sleepga, Tractor, Escape, All elemental DoTs, tier-1 agas
-MAB I/II, Conserve MP
-Elemental Seal

/RDM
-Dia/Diaga/Dia II, Poison, Blind, Bio, Bind, Aquaveil, Slow, Silence, Blaze Spikes, Gravity, Blink, Sleep, Dispel, Stoneskin, all Barelement spells, most barstatus effect spells(not barpetrify or barvirus), all en- spells.
-Resist Petrify I/II, Fast Cast I/II, MAB I, MDB I
-No Job Abilities

/WHM
-Dia/Diaga, BanishI/Banishga/BanishII, CuragaI/II, Paralyze, Aquaviel, Slow, Silence, Blink, Raise, Stoneskin, Reraise, TeleportDem/Holla/Mea, ProtectraI/II, ShellraI/II, most status effect cures(not stona), most barstatus effectra spells(not barpetra or barvira)
-Auto Regen, MDB I/II
-Divine Seal

[chesh]

/WHM
all status effect cures(Erase included),

Except for Stona.

[BRP]

Hmmm, right forgot that, I guess that's why I put Erase included because I stopped midway and was wondering why I put brackets there.

[LD]

The reason people skip a lot of other spell is because more than half of them don't matter. The point is to discuss what's pertinent, what actually affects the job. For example, Erase and the -na's are relevant, Teleport spells and Warp aren't. Posting an entire list of spells and abilities isn't making it complete, it's simply superfluous. Faulting people for getting to the heart of the matter is ridiculous.

[Evelyn]

I definitely agree on SCH needing haste, sleep and stoneskin. Having to rely on RDM sub for the correct spellsets is making me cringe. I think we'd all rather have the versatility of multiple subs. However I'm wondering if we really need anything beyond those to help the job. We don't need refresh, there are other jobs that are more than capable of doing that. Any good BLM party would at least have a RDM or BRD anyway, and I doubt we'd supplant them even if we did have a party-target refresh. We don't need regen3 or any crap like that, our healing side with cheap cure IVs is good enough as is. We won't have the stamina of a RDM in merits, but I don't think we'd need it either. A dia 2, and maybe slow, is plenty for most merit mobs (I do use Dia3, just because it gets lonely) and beyond that, we'd be able to sub whm if status cures were really required.

Honestly though its no skin off my back if we can't play well with melee burn merit parties, I've got other jobs that can do that. But sleep (preferably sleep 2) and stoneskin are absolutely vital.

[BRP]

Faulting people for getting to the heart of the matter is ridiculous.

Okay, but your wording is/was terrible and you skipped over things(like MAB on BLM) that aren't useless. Including all the facts doesn't hurt sometimes you know.


Anyway, I find it odd someone said BLM/SCH wouldn't be possible in a manaburn. Assuming we are talking about more than 2 people here, that's basically a perfect situation for it. Someone who isn't BLM/SCH lands Gravity and you nuke and run without getting hit. Still have bind and sleep if necessary.



As for what Scholar needs. I don't think defensive spells are absolutely necessary. Maybe to be subbed, but I don't even care if it becomes a sub or not(everyone's motivation seems to be because SE said it would be). I think Scholar (while retaining it's RDM-like ability to heal/nuke) should focus in the direction of a buffer, mainly for mages.

Like I said previously: give them an ability that allows them apply of their stratagems to other mages. They could extend a SCH's abilities to give them some form of AoE Haste and Refresh, preferably stackable with white magic spells, but not songs. This would allow SCH to fulfill the slots both BRD and RDM without any problems. The current situation where BRD is always sought over another mage damages the chances of SE making a new support job that doesn't take over a WHM or RDM role(without being a clone like Scholar would be with normal Haste and/or Refresh).

EDIT: Btw, how many charges does a Scholar have while he is leveling? I know it's somewhere in the thread, but it's way too long to go through.

[Kachi]

Personally I kinda expected that a job centered around strategy would be more than a rehashed mage. Seems like it could use some innovative crowd control skills at the very least. Maybe a knockback/scatter move for instance. Maybe a spell like Tractor that works on living people.

idk, tons of cool stuff you could do with a job based around combat tactics. Dissappointing to see it implemented so half-assed.

[Kaslo]

Personally I kinda expected that a job centered around strategy would be more than a rehashed mage. Seems like it could use some innovative crowd control skills at the very least. Maybe a knockback/scatter move for instance. Maybe a spell like Tractor that works on living people.

idk, tons of cool stuff you could do with a job based around combat tactics. Dissappointing to see it implemented so half-assed.

I see it now! People jewing others over in Besieged/Campaign by zoneing them out

[Evelyn]

1 charge at 10, 2 charges at 40, 3 at 70.

I don't think scholar really needs to be more of a mage buffer than it already is. The weather effects already provide a significant boost, and mages as is can pull hate quickly if not careful. Don't get me wrong I'd love more toys, but between weather bonuses, helixes, the odd T3 nuke, and even healing in a pinch, we're pretty capable in the HNM scene as is.

[Eklm]

Personally I would love them to add into the game a selection of convert spells. We can already change weather on people, why not their stats.

For example,

Lifeswap - converts 10% of HP -> MP
Manaswap - converts 10% of MP -> HP
Vigorswap - converts 10% of Vit -> Int
Dexswap - converts 10% Dex -> Mnd
Chrismawap - converts 10% Chr -> Str

etc, this wouldnt overpower the job ( I don't think ) but would add usefulness to it other then even adding haste etc (even tho haste, SS, etc def would be a good idea to add)

[BRP]

Hmmm, just playing around: Aside from a job ability that lets you apply a Stratagem to another party member(on a 10 min timer... level 40)

A new set a JAs not unlike Stratagems in that they are based on Grimoires and share the same timer, but do not have the flexible timer thing. They would be named under "Tactics" and have tactical based names. Come in pairs at level 30 and 60. Level 30 are single target(on self or party member), Level 60 are multi-target. 3:00 timer.

[White Grimoire]
Lv 30: Next 2 Melee/TP Attacks are ignored(Dodged). This works like Utsusemi except it doesn't(and isn't effected by) magic, but it also doesn't stack with utsusemi or blink. 3 min duration(or next two melee attacks).
Lv 60: March-based Haste 15%. It stacks with normal Haste, but not March songs. 5 min duration.

[Black Grimoire]
Lv 30: Stun additional effect on all WSes and increased proc rate of all stun-based WSes. 3 min duration.
Lv 60: Ballad-based Refresh 2/tick. It stacks with normal Refresh, but not Ballad songs. 5 min duration.

The ideology is the SCH giving commands that inspire party members a song would. That, and uh... too many jobs give normal Haste and only one job can give a certain kind of haste(I'm not bring DNC into this).

I think this would solve concerns of BLM subbing SCH(only in solo/normal situations though) and SCH subbing BLM. Not super duper damage mitigation, but I think it would be enough. The Stun additional effect is just for party-wide damage mitigation for a more support feel.

[Seigfried Of Pandy]

im not really worried, i think SE can clearly see how incomplete scholar is and will be adding/changing a lot of shit in near future.

[ruf]

Arts potency increase and the ability of other jobs to receive the bonuses seems like it'd be nice. I guess I always assumed they'd be AoE, so that I could hit light arts near whms and dark arts near blms, but I guess that was the bard in me thinking.

[kuronosan]

I think just fixing Light/Dark arts so that it increases skill and potency would do just fine, as well as possibly adding a few spells to both.

[shukuffxi]

I think for WHM, /SCH really shines. The MP conservation beats /SMN or /BLM in situations where there's a lot of casting, simply because of the MP savings. Hastes, Cure III+, Regen II/III are all cast very commonly, and easily add up to more than 20MP/minute saved, if not more. The casting time enhancements are really quiet nice as well. You're not often counting on your WHM/BLM for back up Sleepga, and WHM retains it's single target sleep spell anyways. Add in if you're fighting an Aspirable mob, Pluto's Staff/Dark Torque/Merciful Cape/M.Acc pieces, and a WHM can get a nice Aspir going.

For RDM: It's super situational. I use it mainly for soloing where i'm nuking, or specific events (Duoing Brothers ENM and such), but the 1:00 timer on Light Arts/Dark Arts seriously hampers the MP conservation and fast cast gained from using the proper Arts. It has it's place, but only because RDM main is so strong.

BLM: Everyone's said it above

[kenshyn]

Just add Magical accuracy to Light and Dark arts and this class could shine resists are the bane of this class atm to me only at 22 lol. That would even give other classes more of a reason to sub it in my book.

I guess to me the following would have been very cool as well:

Tier Helixes I/II/III
Basically you get weak dots to the strongest in the game by 75 so many levels a scholar gets jack for spells heck our first spell is level 4 >.>

Tier Weather spells
I/II/III
Basically each tier would be longer duration say (30, 60, 120 secs) and top tier be double weather

The class kind of feels incomplete to me.

[Kaslo]

Just add Magical accuracy to Light and Dark arts and this class could shine resists are the bane of this class atm to me only at 22 lol. That would even give other classes more of a reason to sub it in my book.

I guess to me the following would have been very cool as well:

Tier Helixes I/II/III
Basically you get weak dots to the strongest in the game by 75 so many levels a scholar gets jack for spells heck our first spell is level 4 >.>

Tier Weather spells
I/II/III
Basically each tier would be longer duration say (30, 60, 120 secs) and top tier be double weather

The class kind of feels incomplete to me.

Really I don't know why SCH didn't get the elemental DoTs (Rasp, Choke, ect) as main...