Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Acorn]

Really I think the different tiers of SCH-only spells are needed... I can't think of another job that doesn't get their job-defining stuff until lv41 or 61... (maybe rdm with convert at 40 and refresh at 41... but they get some other very important spells before then)

Start giving single-weather spells at 30, this will make them subbable and solve the problem of potency increase from SCH sub (like SE promised us....)

Then at 60 start giving double-weather spells. It makes perfect sense.

As far as helices go... I don't know. I think the levels they are learned now are fine. And even if the behavior of these spells now is what they intended.... I think thats fine, too. (I think the people that still cry about helices are still in the mindset that they cost like 300 MP to cast. They don't.)

[Naramaska]

(I think the people that still cry about helices are still in the mindset that they cost like 300 MP to cast. They don't.)

Well, look at it this way:

78 MP, and assuming 110 damage initial (a good high-end estimate from what we've seen so far) you're looking at 100 damage/tick. With ticks every 10 seconds, this is roughly 33 damage/tick under the standard 3sec/tick system...but only on "old" targets.

With the "modern" stuff taking halved magic damage, you'll only be dealing 50-60 initial DoT at most, meaning only ~15-20 damage per tick--as much damage as a BLU could pump out with Cold Wave, for twice as much MP, no AGI down, etc. For spells that were hyped by SE as "massive DoT spells", yes it's more than Poison, Bio, or Elemental DoT's, but it's less damage than a jack-of-all-trades job like BLU can put out 10 levels earlier--and it still doesn't help SCH's lackluster offensive abilities for endgame either.

[Byrthnoth]

Now that we're all tossing around ideas about what we wish SCH had . . . I think Scholar should have been given a bunch of very powerful, but very short duration spells with near-instant cast times and medium length recasts (~30 seconds).

Reflect. Only lasts 5 seconds or something, but nullifies damage from any spell and bounces it back on its target. It wouldn't be something you could spam, SCH would have to be on top of things and cast it when the monster started casting a nuke. AoE it, and your party is protected from -gas for 5 seconds.

TP decay. The ability to debuff the monster so it loses large amounts of TP over a short period of time (potentially draining it into MP for the SCH). Toss that in at the right moment in a fight where you're carefully controlling mob TP, and it could be invaluable. Like, Stun -> SCH TP decay Spell = no TP move.

Basic idea would be to make it a useful job that requires strategy. Neither of the examples I gave would be particularly useful for improving SCH's merit potential unless the TP -> MP thing actually happened. If that happened and the MP cost wasn't inhibitive then SCH would be a pretty fearsome job, and SCH/NIN would be a sick soloing combo >.>. Is Ninjitsu casting time/recast affected by either of the arts?

[Acorn]

(I think the people that still cry about helices are still in the mindset that they cost like 300 MP to cast. They don't.)

Well, look at it this way:

78 MP, and assuming 110 damage initial (a good high-end estimate from what we've seen so far) you're looking at 100 damage/tick. With ticks every 10 seconds, this is roughly 33 damage/tick under the standard 3sec/tick system...but only on "old" targets.

With the "modern" stuff taking halved magic damage, you'll only be dealing 50-60 initial DoT at most, meaning only ~15-20 damage per tick--as much damage as a BLU could pump out with Cold Wave, for twice as much MP, no AGI down, etc. For spells that were hyped by SE as "massive DoT spells", yes it's more than Poison, Bio, or Elemental DoT's, but it's less damage than a jack-of-all-trades job like BLU can put out 10 levels earlier--and it still doesn't help SCH's lackluster offensive abilities for endgame either.

The overall dmg/mp on helix spells is still good. I really don't want to debate about helices till another year or 2 from now when SCH is "finished"

edit: where did you get 78 mp? Geohelix (first one) is 90 (according to "otherwiki"), so under dark arts it would be 81 right?

[Wizerd]

(I think the people that still cry about helices are still in the mindset that they cost like 300 MP to cast. They don't.)

Well, look at it this way:

78 MP, and assuming 110 damage initial (a good high-end estimate from what we've seen so far) you're looking at 100 damage/tick. With ticks every 10 seconds, this is roughly 33 damage/tick under the standard 3sec/tick system...but only on "old" targets.

With the "modern" stuff taking halved magic damage, you'll only be dealing 50-60 initial DoT at most, meaning only ~15-20 damage per tick--as much damage as a BLU could pump out with Cold Wave, for twice as much MP, no AGI down, etc. For spells that were hyped by SE as "massive DoT spells", yes it's more than Poison, Bio, or Elemental DoT's, but it's less damage than a jack-of-all-trades job like BLU can put out 10 levels earlier--and it still doesn't help SCH's lackluster offensive abilities for endgame either.

The overall dmg/mp on helix spells is still good. I really don't want to debate about helices till another year or 2 from now when SCH is "finished"

edit: where did you get 78 mp? Geohelix (first one) is 90 (according to "otherwiki"), so under dark arts it would be 81 right?

They're actually 79 apparently.

From page 13:

The base cost is 87 MP, with Dark Arts actve they are 79 MP each. Geohelix, Hydrohelix and Anemohelix all cost the same so far. Pretty cheap!

Otherwiki also has some pretty craptacular info about Dancer, so I wouldn't trust them on any new job information.

[Khamsin]

Otherwiki also has some pretty craptacular info about Dancer, so I wouldn't trust them on any new job information.

Yeah, they've kinda fallen apart ever since all their good editors left. They used to at least be somewhat reliable, even if they made some mistakes.

[Evelyn]

where the hell did this thread degenerate into a bunch of people whining for spells that are obviously overpowered for the job?

Seriously people, its already a strong sub due to the accuracy buffs, we don't need additional potency added on top of it (the jobs that would use sch already benefit from enough potency). It doesn't need some god awful new enfeeble that will see next to 0 use in realistic situations. If you can't handle TP moves in a party or HNM, you shouldn't be there.

My 23 SCH has had no nuke resist problems after I buffed up his INT a bit. Would have been nice to have thunder earlier, but thats the way the cookie crumbles. If you're complaining about resists already, you're either fighting mobs too hard for you, or are using crap gear.

Reflect is also retarded, especially if it lasted for only 5 seconds. You'd have to time it like stun, except worse. Also, reflecting an HNM nuke for insane damage is extremely overpowered.

And those "convert" JAs that were suggested were stupid as well. What kind of SCH is gonna find use in CHR to STR? and 10% is an extra 6-7 INT depending, and thats if equipment wasn't counting. Free 7 INT or MND for no reason (because who the fuck needs DEX or VIT as SCH) is just bad. Absorb spells require skill and acc gear to be effective, and even then its a temporary buff. SCH doesnt need it.

Like I said, this is already a powerful job, we don't need all THAT much. So stop making up useless things that will never be implemented. Theres nothing wrong with suggesting small things to adjust the job, but this isn't PUP people. And its not the purpose of this thread. So quit QQing over all the "cool stuff they could have done with it" and get realistic people. AoE knockback? Whats that gonna do besides piss people off or waste your time/MP when you could be doing something useful to help your party. Use this thread for real suggestions, not this fanciful wish list JA crap.

think of the starving kids in Africa that could make real use of those JAs.

[Gilthas]

And those "convert" JAs that were suggested were stupid as well. What kind of SCH is gonna find use in CHR to STR? and 10% is an extra 6-7 INT depending, and thats if equipment wasn't counting. Free 7 INT or MND for no reason (because who the fuck needs DEX or VIT as SCH) is just bad. Absorb spells require skill and acc gear to be effective, and even then its a temporary buff. SCH doesnt need it.

I'm pretty sure that the guy that suggested these "abilities" called them "spells" that you could target on other people. Regardless of their usefulness I wouldn't call them stupid.

[Xno Kappa]

My 23 SCH has had no nuke resist problems after I buffed up his INT a bit.

I stopped reading after this line...
Seriously, basing your opinion on the job off a whole 23 levels when you have people discussing more important, hate to use the word but, "higher" level concerns. It's no different then saying RDM can melee at 23 so whats the big deal at higher levels.

[Sekkite]

I'll be sorely disappointed if Scholar AF doesn't give an extra strategem charge and make the weather spells go from 10% to 20%.

[Maxxthepenguin]

I'll be sorely disappointed if Scholar AF doesn't give an extra strategem charge and make the weather spells go from 10% to 20%.

Brace yourself for dissapointment

[Sekkite]

I'll be sorely disappointed if Scholar AF doesn't give an extra strategem charge and make the weather spells go from 10% to 20%.

Brace yourself for dissapointment

Well, that's a given.

Really though, I wouldn't think doubling the potency of weather spells to be that unreasonable for scholar AF.

[Maxxthepenguin]

If they do it as a set bonus maybe, but to me it seems too powerful of an effect for a single piece :/

[Evelyn]

either way, I call em like I see em. And as I said before, we don't need to get more mage buff spells or abilities, we're fine in that regard, let alone getting spells that are dubious at best. We need to pull away from the idea that we're backline support and realize that we're slightly more versatile and efficient versions of BLMs.

I'm sure once we get more people to 75 we'll see that we can get close to the same damage per MP as BLMs, when you add weather bonuses and helixes in the mix

[Gilthas]

You're right, giving SCHs more versatility is obviously a bad thing.

[Starless]

Oh SE. All the bitching in the Dancer forums about a lack of Blau Dolch, and you give us Scholars access to it? I love you.

[Evelyn]

You're right, giving SCHs more versatility is obviously a bad thing.

Ah, so instead of saying WHY SCHs should be more versatile, or even refuting my point, you immediately jump on me and say i don't think SCH should get anything new.

Read please. You'll see you're wrong.

[Byrthnoth]

Based on the current gear in the game, I'd guess a meritted 75 SCH would be outnuked by a meritted 75 PUP's puppet. The puppet has more skill and MAB.

Also, Reflect for spells wouldn't be that overpowered, and would require skill/strategy for its usage (in keeping with the job's theoretical theme). It would save a tank from a poorly timed spell once in a while. What the hell are you going to do, bounce Stone 4 back on Kirin for SICK DAMAGE? Make Genbu eat 6 Waterga 3s? Things that aren't spells (you can test using /recast) wouldn't have to be affected. If you could reflect 18 Citadel Busters back on Ultima, or 18 Giga Flares back on Bahamut, that would be broken. As proposed though, the ability would just save your tank some damage if you have quick fingers.

You could even imagine a series of related buffs. Like, a spell lasting for 5 seconds that increases someone's Evasion by 100. One that lasts 5 seconds increasing someone's defense by 500. Potent enough to make a very significant difference if used appropriately. Short enough duration to be utterly useless if poorly coordinated. Or debuffs to lock TP moves or something. Based on the storyline behind it, I'd have expected something like that. Could also have an AoE buff/debuff that increases the party's accuracy or something when attacking from behind/the sides. Like, something related to battle tactics and requiring strategy. Not "hey, let's take RDM/BLM, remove useful spells, give it a WHM spell, and tell them it's a new job. Oh yeah, we'll put in some high level DoTs and random buffs too."

As it is, RDM/SCH is as better at everything but Helices than SCH has the potential to be 20-75 (Aspir vs. Refresh) and Helices are proving to not exactly be the omnipotent force SE hinted they'd be. The amusing part is, most RDMs have already written off SCH sub in favor of BLM or WHM for party play. That doesn't say much for SCH.

[Delekii]

either way, I call em like I see em. And as I said before, we don't need to get more mage buff spells or abilities, we're fine in that regard, let alone getting spells that are dubious at best. We need to pull away from the idea that we're backline support and realize that we're slightly more versatile and efficient versions of BLMs.

I'm sure once we get more people to 75 we'll see that we can get close to the same damage per MP as BLMs, when you add weather bonuses and helixes in the mix

BLMs don't need to be more versatile, and I think you'll find that where it is actually important, BLMs far far more efficient.

The fact of the matter is, the position of a BLM in any scenario is based on 2 things - magical damage (specifically, good damage:tp efficiency, or in some cases, through ga), and crowd control (sleepga/2 and stun). There is never, ever a scenario where we say "oh shit, we need a BLM who can cast regen 2!" MP efficiency is not a big issue in the vast majority of circumstances. We can now get up to 7-11mp/tick between refresh, ballads and rolls, and in many events the limitation is not MP, it is staying alive.

Scholars that are calling for the job to be viewed as some sort of Hybrid BLM are cementing the job into a position of extremely limited usage. Magic damage is a complete dichotomy in FFXI - either it is the best form of damage and/or the best form of killing something with controlled circumstances, or else it is uselessly inefficient in comparison with melee damage. If you want to classify your job as being a less powerful version of BLM, and not as a less powerful version of BLM that also can adequately fulfill the same roll as a WHM or a RDM (which they can't without haste, whether you like it or not), then more power to you.

[Evelyn]

BLMs don't need to be more versatile, and I think you'll find that where it is actually important, BLMs far far more efficient.

The fact of the matter is, the position of a BLM in any scenario is based on 2 things - magical damage (specifically, good damage:tp efficiency, or in some cases, through ga), and crowd control (sleepga/2 and stun). There is never, ever a scenario where we say "oh shit, we need a BLM who can cast regen 2!" MP efficiency is not a big issue in the vast majority of circumstances. We can now get up to 7-11mp/tick between refresh, ballads and rolls, and in many events the limitation is not MP, it is staying alive.

Scholars that are calling for the job to be viewed as some sort of Hybrid BLM are cementing the job into a position of extremely limited usage. Magic damage is a complete dichotomy in FFXI - either it is the best form of damage and/or the best form of killing something with controlled circumstances, or else it is uselessly inefficient in comparison with melee damage. If you want to classify your job as being a less powerful version of BLM, and not as a less powerful version of BLM that also can adequately fulfill the same roll as a WHM or a RDM (which they can't without haste, whether you like it or not), then more power to you.

Ah, finally someone who actually argues with a point.

Anyway, yes I understand that we need haste to fulfill whm and rdm roles efficiently. If you look earlier in the thread I actually recommended that.

I definitely agree on SCH needing haste, sleep and stoneskin. Having to rely on RDM sub for the correct spellsets is making me cringe.

I don't think we should get nothing. However I also don't think that outrageous new spells and JAs won't make SCH truely versatile like we're looking for, as much as the above three spells. I swear, I make that remark, then everyone goes "ZOMG WE HAF TA HAV TEH NU STUF" and start spewing retarded shit all over the place (AoE knockback? Come on, what use is that gonna have unless the mob is knocked back across the zone? Getting more adds? You're just delaying the inevitable). I also don't think our job will benefit from having more mage buff abilities. Thats it.