Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[lost071]

SCH will not be able to come close to BLM in damage per MP i don't think. I think that was the major reason for limiting their gear selection. The only body piece they get that gives magic attack bonus is yigit. I think SE is trying to be careful on what they give so they don't have to nerf them later. Basically they gave them a couple gear sets and they're gonna see how it goes. What SE seems to do most of the time not counting the 2h update is they release things that are relatively weak and then buff them as they see fit.

[Gilthas]

Ah, so instead of saying WHY SCHs should be more versatile, or even refuting my point, you immediately jump on me and say i don't think SCH should get anything new.

Read please. You'll see you're wrong.

Oh whoopie, you mentioned that SCHs should get Haste. Congratulations I guess.

[Kaeko]

I guess I'll try to get things back on topic...

I was thinking of SCH as a potential soloer and it seems like it would mimic RDM play but with less defensive abilities (similar to a BLM); the only unique thing I can see it offering is the Helix spells, so the uniqueness of the job as a soloer comes down to strictly the effectiveness of Helices. I"m looking at this from a SCH/RDM point of view for access to key spells like Blink, Stoneskin, Bind, Gravity, and Sleep.

DoT Strength
Generally best on things you cannot stop to nuke on or are not MP efficient to solely rely on nukes.

RDM gets Poison II (10/tick) and Bio II (6/tick), for about 16ish damage a tick maximum. SCH would lack Poison II but can reach the 293 tier on Dark Skill for Bio II (8/tick) in addition to Helices (and I suppose a 1/tick Poison I if you want to be technical). Let's assume a Helix can do 100ish damage on average with good gear (is this off?) and gets 5 ticks + initial damage for 600 damage over 1 minute (30/tick).

So we're comparing 38/tick on SCH to 18/tick on RDM based on DoT damage, but you also have to consider MP cost. Poison II and Bio II are both 120 seconds, which is 74MP/2min or 37MP/minute to maintain. Bio II + Helix (which is 1min duration) takes 95.5MP/min to maintain in Dark Arts. About the same damage/MP efficiency assuming you dont get resisted and the mob has no Magic Damage reduced. This is all based on the assumption that the average Helix damage is 100 and # if ticks 5.

Helices VS. Nuking Efficiency
If we try to compare using Helices as the main damage source on mobs you can actually get nukes off (via Bind or just Gravity) and disregard killing speed as a factor, I think these start to look pretty nice. In ideal conditions on harder things, my BLM gets around 8-9ish damage/MP ratio, and that's in very ideal conditions. If we go on the assumption of 100 damage for 5 extra ticks (600 total) for 79 MP, that's about 7.5 in non-ideal conditions, which is pretty good imo. This is comparing to a well geared BLM. I think helices look really good compared to a RDM nukes.

I think as others have said, the SCH job is currently incomplete (at least we're going to get 2 tiers of merits and AF1). Considering Helices stack up reasonably well already, I think there is some solo potential to the job, especially once it becomes more complete. Manifestation also is pretty unique and can situationally useful on things you can't sleep but can Bind/Gravity. SCH also gets Drain and Aspir, which are great solo tools, although at reduced skill compared to a BLM. I'm not sure how useful those would be.

If you try to rerun the #s with a higher assumed Helix initial damage or increased number of ticks (maybe due to weather or potential merits?), the numbers start to look really good. For instance, lets say you could up the Helix damage to 5 ticks and 150 initial - you'd get 750 total damage (before 600), 9.5 damage/MP ratio (before 7.5), and 45.5 average damage/tick at 95.5 MP/min to maintain. Pretty decent. Obviously this is just # crunching - someone would have to prove anything here works and verify the damage #s.

EDIT: SCH can use Gaiters

[Eklm]

And those "convert" JAs that were suggested were stupid as well. What kind of SCH is gonna find use in CHR to STR? and 10% is an extra 6-7 INT depending, and thats if equipment wasn't counting. Free 7 INT or MND for no reason (because who the fuck needs DEX or VIT as SCH) is just bad. Absorb spells require skill and acc gear to be effective, and even then its a temporary buff. SCH doesnt need it.

These are spells i suggested, Kinda like etudes (which cap at +9 fyi). The only reason that etudes aren't used more by brds is cause of the 2 song per bard limit on PC's. if you think about it, with gear its easy to get any stat above 100. Thats +10 to whatever stat the person your casting on wants. Also, why is free bonus to stats for melee and mages bad? People pay millions of gil for decent stat increases do to gear. Whats wrong with giving a Blu for example +str before doing Vertical Cleave or Death Scissors? I know my blue would <3 the extra damage. Hmmm, or how about +Int for a Blm at the cost of Str which they arent ever gonna use? What about Converting 10% of an Elvaans HP to MP for a Elvaan Whm? Ya, I'm sorry but thats such a bad idea.

Like I said, this is already a powerful job, we don't need all THAT much. So stop making up useless things that will never be implemented. Theres nothing wrong with suggesting small things to adjust the job, but this isn't PUP people. And its not the purpose of this thread. So quit QQing over all the "cool stuff they could have done with it" and get realistic people. AoE knockback? Whats that gonna do besides piss people off or waste your time/MP when you could be doing something useful to help your party. Use this thread for real suggestions, not this fanciful wish list JA crap.

Honestly at higher levels, Its really not that powerful? Please, tell me how Scholar is overpowering?

As for damage, Scholar doesnt get the Gear or the Job Traits (MaB from Main Job where?) to compete with Black Mage as a pure nuker. Well how about healing? Again, without utility spells like haste they fall behind in this catigory.

Well, then there are the spells that SE gave only to Scholar, the storm and helix spells. From personally playing around with these, they arent worth creating a new job centered around these spells. The weather spells are a great idea, but allowing us to only keep one type of weather on ONE person effectively 100% of the time or on a group around 30-35% of the time its not worth it. And again as mentioned for the storm spells, even if we get 100 dmg from the initial cast, thats 33 dmg per NORMAL dot tick for 79 mp. Blu's Cold Wave is 18 dmg/tic for 37 mp (if you do the math you could see that its more efficient). Plus, Cold way will normally last alot longer then the helix spells.

So yes, it is understandable that some of us are dissapointed by what SE has done with this job. Is it a bad Idea for a Job? Definately Not. But, it definately needs buffs IMO.

[Naramaska]

Lots of stuff comparing DoT efficiency

Disclaimer: I'm speaking from the standpoint of my LS, and the events we do...which is mostly stuff where stuff is halved-damage from magic.


Assuming SCH can somehow through merits, top-of-the-line gear/support, and otherwise, manage 100/cast on Helices to Tiamat, you're looking at, within the same 4-minute timeframe for a BLM+SCH:

BLM: ~3-4000 damage (assuming ~4 unresisted nukes at ~750 damage each and a few resisted for spare change)
SCH: ~3-4000 damage (~4x Thunder3 for ~250 ea., 4 Helices @ ~600 total each)



It's not bad, but resist rates on Helices are going to make-or-break the job. And yes, I agree, for anything outside of HNM, Haste (or Refresh) is almost going to be requisite for an addition via patch.

[Kaeko]

I have a feeling the resist rates won't look favorable compared to that of a BLM. As you said, may have to rely on buffs in future updates to the spells themselves through merit or gear.

Good concept, but maybe not quite so useful in practice. We'll have to see.

[Delekii]

The other thing I asked in the other thread which no-one has answered yet:

I haven't seen helices in action yet. From the very first day they were seen, people were posting that they do the same damage per tick as they do when they land - does this mean that every "tick" you see something in the log like "Target takes xxx damage from Geohelix" or the like? And if this is the case, does each tick give the mob 10TP, since it isn't hidden damage like a dot?

Or, have I misunderstood it, and it works the same as all the other DoTs, and people just assumed/tested from day one that each tick does the same damage as the first?

[LD]

It operates like a normal DOT. The way people figured out it damaged the same as the initial damage for each tick was with Ballista, iirc.

[Naramaska]

I have a feeling the resist rates won't look favorable compared to that of a BLM. As you said, may have to rely on buffs in future updates to the spells themselves through merit or gear.

Good concept, but maybe not quite so useful in practice. We'll have to see.

Likewise :\

With ~330 elemental skill and threnody up, resist rates from BLM are under control..the problem is SCH caps out somewhere just barely south of 300, and that's with literally the best possible gear. Hopefully the AF can remedy this though, and hopefully you can just reapply a Helix if the initial damage is resisted :/

[Toth]

I just dinged 53 last night and am now ready for the ToAU exp orgasm train :D but I wanted to add a few things about SCH as a main healer:

1) Scholar is proving to be an excellent back up healer and a VERY capable main healer, even without Haste. It's quite a MP efficient job as long as you do not use Accension/Manifestation on any large spells. A steady diet of Cure II and Regen IIs, with the occasional Cure III, allows us to even have a chance to nuke once or twice a mob

2) Accession + Cure III adds as much enmity as Curaga II. Protect3ga also adds as much hate as a Curaga II. Enspellga however does not add a large amount of enmity.

3) While we do not get haste, the enspellga tactic continues to shine in party situation. At 52, melees now get 6 additional damage per hit with it (with PLDs hitting for 12) and combined with 3-4 dual wielders, you're adding almost 50 extra damage to a mob each attack round (even better if the mob has high defense like crabs). The fact that it lasts more than 4 minutes and costs 36 MP under Accession makes it an incredibly useful ability.

Last night, I main healed a NIN SAM THF BLU SCH BLM. No one ever was in danger of dying and my MP was always ready for cures. The 6-7k/hr ratio on those damn robber crabs was one of the best I've had there, despite not having a full time dispeller or refresher. I am eager to see what changes SE makes to this exciting job.

[Azurea_Carby]

I know i am kinda new to the board (long-time reader though, best forums around )

I think a lot of the ppl in this thread have gotten away from the point of SCH (my SCH is 43 right now! YA for Rainstorm!)

There are only so many spots available in an Alliance or Party, and SE made this job so that it filled 2 different roles but took up only 1 spot.

SCH =/= BLM SCH =/= WHM SCH =/= RDM

SE specifically said that SCH was to be a DoT nuker..... yes they dont "nuke" for as much damage as BLM does, but they can pop a JA and cure a lot better if sh*t hits the fans......

From the early tests of Helic spells so far, they are gonna do a nice chunk of damage... they are no AM2 or -ga III spells, but they are (and this is an assumption here) almost hate free (compared to doing 600-750 damage through a nuke).

Yes SCH is a little incomplete, but for the most part, i think SCH is what SE said it was gonna be and what they wanted it to be..... 80% WHM (Cure I-IV and Regen I & II, at reduced mp cost and faster casting) and 80% BLM (full-time weather boost, Helics, Tier IIIs)

I would like to see some ulity spells though.... Sleep, Bind or some enfeebles.... but that is just my play style

[Ohemgee]

I've already soloed 1-20. 55 more to go!

[Sho]

Did everyone that asked for utility spells miss the fact that it's subjob dependant? I highly doubt SE will give them many spells that people are hoping for, for fear of the job becoming too powerful, too soon. At endgame, a few things can be confirmed already about SCH:

1) Has the best AoE Stoneskin.
2) Has Elemental nukes on par with RDM.
3) Has the better AoE Enspellage than SMN.
4) Can main heal and sub heal better than SMN and BLU (and still deal out damage).
5) Can add 10% Potency and Accuracy to all mages, including themselves.
6) Has strong DoTs that can be used during kiting.
7) Can AoE Aspir during select endgame situations (like dynamis and limbus).
8 ) Can AoE Gravity and Paralyze during select situations.

The only set backs are justified, if you really think about it. I wouldn't want a job that had AoE Haste, SS, Refresh, and Dispel all on one job. I'd be like a RDM rehash, and break the job. If they add this stuff to SCH, they'd need to boost RDM and BRD more.

[Gilthas]

3) While we do not get haste, the enspellga tactic continues to shine in party situation. At 52, melees now get 6 additional damage per hit with it (with PLDs hitting for 12) and combined with 3-4 dual wielders, you're adding almost 50 extra damage to a mob each attack round (even better if the mob has high defense like crabs). The fact that it lasts more than 4 minutes and costs 36 MP under Accession makes it an incredibly useful ability.

Why are PLDs hitting for 12?

[Xanthe]

3) While we do not get haste, the enspellga tactic continues to shine in party situation. At 52, melees now get 6 additional damage per hit with it (with PLDs hitting for 12) and combined with 3-4 dual wielders, you're adding almost 50 extra damage to a mob each attack round (even better if the mob has high defense like crabs). The fact that it lasts more than 4 minutes and costs 36 MP under Accession makes it an incredibly useful ability.

Why are PLDs hitting for 12?

PLD has native enhancing skill.

[Gilthas]

A few pages ago people were saying that it was based on the SCHs enhancing skill and not on the targets enhancing skill, I'm guessing this was disproved?

[Xanthe]

A few pages ago people were saying that it was based on the SCHs enhancing skill and not on the targets enhancing skill, I'm guessing this was disproved?

If I recall the discussion correctly the base damage is determined by the SCH's enhancing skill, but the resist rate still is determined by the individual's enhancing skill.

[Gilthas]

Yeah, just went back and saw that I missed a couple of posts.

[Seigfried Of Pandy]

like i said before this jobs seems like a specialty job that can really shine in certain situations. just unfortunately right now, exp not so much lol at least compared to other jobs that can do everything a sch can do but better, except i guess erm enspellga

[BRP]

Otherwiki also has some pretty craptacular info about Dancer, so I wouldn't trust them on any new job information.

Yeah, they've kinda fallen apart ever since all their good editors left. They used to at least be somewhat reliable, even if they made some mistakes.

Where did all those good editors go? ;/

Has anyone hit 75 yet?