Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Meian]

quick question, dont know if it has been tested, but do Corsair quick draws enhance helix effects or dmg?

! good question but seeing as it's not enfeebling magic I extremely doubt it. I'll give it a shot sometime.

Not to sound rude but if it isn't enfeebling then what is it? Elemental?

[Spekkio]

quick question, dont know if it has been tested, but do Corsair quick draws enhance helix effects or dmg?

! good question but seeing as it's not enfeebling magic I extremely doubt it. I'll give it a shot sometime.

Not to sound rude but if it isn't enfeebling then what is it? Elemental?

doesn't QD enhance frost and other elemental enfeebles, or am i misremembering? if it does, that would take the issue of the magic type out of the equation.

[Genosync]

quick question, dont know if it has been tested, but do Corsair quick draws enhance helix effects or dmg?

! good question but seeing as it's not enfeebling magic I extremely doubt it. I'll give it a shot sometime.

Not to sound rude but if it isn't enfeebling then what is it? Elemental?

doesn't QD enhance frost and other elemental enfeebles, or am i misremembering? if it does, that would take the issue of the magic type out of the equation.

true

but based on my land rates on things and using elemental skill gear vs. enfeebling and casting both spell types on certain mobs, it really, really really looks like they're elemental.

really.

Wish I could get a skillup or something to show me concrete proof but based on the results of casts I'm seeing, if they're not elemental, the game's seriously giving me fucked up results worse than it usually does.

[Meian]

Hmm... I wonder then if using Druid Slops would be better than Errant for Helix?

Or Elite Beret

What of MAB on Helix damage?

Ding 47 SCH

[Genosync]

Hmm... I wonder then if using Druid Slops would be better than Errant for Helix?

Or Elite Beret

What of MAB on Helix damage?

does what its supposed to do.

multiply the final damage by blahblahblah.

I even got a 1.2dmg/INT increase with RDM sj (aka MATK Bonus I, 20%). So, it works, but using MATK over INT pends on if you're hitting the value where INT diminishes or not, and numerous other things, blah blah.

[Delekii]

Frost etc have an element of debuff along with the dot. The only pure dot in the game is poison, which quick draw doesn't enhance, and poison is enfeebling based. I really doubt that quick draw will have any effect on helices.

[aru]

I'm gonna go with no on the smn question. If this were true, any weather would have a double effect on the avatar since one is applied to the avatar and another would be applied to the smn which is linked to the avatar (which we know isnt the case)

i dont understand your line of thinking. how are you getting double effect? if you said that enhancing spells do not transfer to avatars i would agree with you as that's the reason i'm skeptical myself. how are we to know if the avatar refrences what weather the smn currently has active or if they reference the zone regardless of the smn's weather status? how do we know "which isnt the case" like you say?

[Kaeko]

Saw a 75 SCH in action at Nidhogg today. Was not my LS. She was just spamming all sorts of Helix spells in an obvious attempt to check resist rates and test the damage on it. I got screenshots of all her attempts. Fight didn't last that long but I got a good number of attempts written.

Windsday, Double Thunder Weather at start to no weather at end, Mithra SCH/RDM

Notable Gear:
Elemental Torque only for Elemental Skill (+7)
+40 INT and +5 MAB from gear
No special buffs from COR, BRD, or anything like that

Amenohelix: 28, 10, 12
Cryohelix: 5
Ionohelix: 49, 10, 141 (E), 13, 13, 12, 15 (E), 9, 95, 9, 10
Notctohelix: 44, 45, 11, 7
Luminohelix: 10

The high of 141 was with Ebulliance and Double Thunder weather at the time. The second highest of 95 was with no Ebulliance and no weather.

Total Attempts: 20
1/10 Resist: 14
1/4 Resist: 1
1/2 Resist: 3
No Resist: 2

I don't know what the person's Elemental / Enfeeble Skill merits looked like so his Elemental Skill could have been anywhere from 263 to 279. It looks like the problem was skill based. I know a BLM nuking with 263-279 skill (which is only 3 above the base at best) would have pretty similar resist rates.

[Byrthnoth]

That's not very promising. If they have to skill whore they can't INT whore. If they can't INT whore they won't be very efficient.

Currently it's possible to get 302 Elemental Magic Skill SCH/BLM without Aquilo's. Honestly, I'd hope for, like, 15 from AF pants with some INT, then another 10 from some other piece of AF. Then you could boost potency.

Ideally right now I see:

Weapon: HQ Staff
Sub: Bugard Leather Strap +1
Ammo: Phantom Tathlum
Head: Elite Beret +1
Neck: Elemental Torque
Ear1: Elemental Earring
Ear2: Wizard's Earring
Body: Mahatma Hpl. or Yigit Gomlek
Hands: Yigit Gages
Ring1: Snow Ring/Balrahn's Ring
Ring2: Tamas Ring
Back: Merciful Cape
Waist: Penitent's Rope
Legs: Druid's Slops
Feet: Yigit Crackows

Honestly, this sacrifices a ton of useful spots. Legs could be Mahatma (8INT). Ears could be Novio/Moldavite (12 MAB). Back could be Prism Cape (4INT). Head could be . . . Mahatma Hat (4INT) >.> <,< >.> Neck could be Prudence Torque (5INT).

Until the AF is released, I wouldn't exactly assume no one is going to be able to land spells without all the shit outlined above. I don't really anticipate SE giving SCH multiple pieces with bonuses to the same skill (like two Elemental piece) as they have so many different magic skills, or any bonuses in excess of 15 skill. However, they might give one with a bonus to Elemental Magic Skill specifically, and another with a bonus to Dark Arts or something that boosts all those skills 10. Then it'd be manageable and you could wear Novio/Moldavite and Mahatma Slops without getting your resist rate fubar-ed. I mean, 302 skill is pretty "hai you're going to get fubar-ed" anyway, but if you knock 13 skill off that you're back towards unmeritted AF BLM resist rate.

[Kaeko]

It's mainly just a gear access issue I think. BLM has had years of upgrading gear and SCH can barely use maybe 20% of it. I think the spells themselves are pretty good, SCH just needs more access to gear. Not being able to use Nashira and Zenith hurt a lot imo (and of course, missing 2 sets of AF).

[whoami]

Hopefully in the future updates they will add dancer to skadi/homam and sch to nashira/morrigans. Though if we look at the latest afs for pup/cor/blu we may end up with 3 possible out comes for elemental skill. 1) incrase arts (light/dark) enough to get at least 10 more skill at 75. 2) +10/15 skill with int on it possibly the body 3) skill on 2-3 pieces thats more then 15 (like cor af and racc)

either way af should help brige that elemental skill cap needed to preform on the biggest baddies out there.

[Enygma55]

I'm gonna go with no on the smn question. If this were true, any weather would have a double effect on the avatar since one is applied to the avatar and another would be applied to the smn which is linked to the avatar (which we know isnt the case)

i dont understand your line of thinking. how are you getting double effect? if you said that enhancing spells do not transfer to avatars i would agree with you as that's the reason i'm skeptical myself. how are we to know if the avatar refrences what weather the smn currently has active or if they reference the zone regardless of the smn's weather status? how do we know "which isnt the case" like you say?

A smn and its avatar are 2 seperate entity when it comes to buffs. So anything done to the smn has no relation to the Avatar is what I'm trying to say.

The double effect comes from the fact that if the avatar references the smn for a weather buff (lets say its 1 ice weather in the zone) the avatar already has the natural ice weather and then a 2nd one from the smn also being in ice weather. If this were the case then Shiva using Diamond Dust in 1 ice weather would potentially give 20% dmg boost, but it wont.

I guess if we need to test this theory out, just have a sch buff a smn up with ice weather and have Shiva spam bliz IV on bunnies til you hit the 10% bonus.

[chesh]

Ideally right now I see:

Weapon: HQ Staff
Sub: Bugard Leather Strap +1
Ammo: Phantom Tathlum
Head: Elite Beret +1
Neck: Elemental Torque
Ear1: Elemental Earring
Ear2: Wizard's Earring
Body: Mahatma Hpl. or Yigit Gomlek
Hands: Yigit Gages
Ring1: Snow Ring/Balrahn's Ring
Ring2: Tamas Ring
Back: Merciful Cape
Waist: Penitent's Rope
Legs: Druid's Slops
Feet: Yigit Crackows

SCH can also use Genie Gages for +8 elemental on the hands.

[Dreampainter]

I can confirm that helices are elemental magic. I get elemental skillups while casting them. Just in case that hadn't been cleared up yet.

[Meian]

Thank goodness for that XD

Hmm, weather spells can be used as a semi-bar spell also?
Such as using an opposite weather spell on the tank fighting the opposing elemental (as an example): Thunder weather against Water element

[Byrthnoth]

Ah, so they can (use Genie Gages). 310 Elemental Magic is the lower edge of acceptable for nuking endgame, too (320 + INT generally). If you think about it though, the SuperINT BLM builds used for CoP Wyrms still maintain about as much skill as SCH has at its max ability, and that's considered sacrificing skill for INT <,<.

[tenriotaru]

In case it benefits any, I was in a Mount Z party yesterday. Sch Sch Brd Drk Nin Dnc. Me and the Scholar had identical gear (aside from HQ staves, she had all + Neptune's/Vulcan's/Austere's, I only have Terra's, Pluto's, and Aquilo's.) She would cast Burn -> Hydrohelix at the start of each fight and they would hit for 113~123 consistently, and then I remembered seeing earlier in this thread about someone testing Geohelix with the earth weather in Mount Z. When the single dusty earth weather came up, I started to cast Sandstorm on myself and fire of Geohelix. We were fighting the Magmatic Eruca, my first Geohelix (without Ebullience) landed for 154 w/ Sandstorm + Mount Z Earth Weather + Terra's Staff. I hit 154 about 5 more times and then I stopped casting Sandstorm and went down to the 120~140s. I then tried it without the Mount Z Earth Weather and I would constantly land for 113~134ish. I tried a Geohelix with my Aquilo's Staff on (for the Elemental Magic Skill +10) and it hit for 113, this is without Mount Z Weather, just Sandstorm.

64 Scholar, my gear set was:
Weapon: Ele Staves
Sub: Bugard Strap +1
Head: None
Neck: Mhobwa Scarf +1
Ear1: Phantom Earring
Ear2: Moldavite Earring
Body: Shaman's Cloak
Hands: Seer's Mitts +1
Ring1: Tamas Ring
Ring2: Genius Ring
Back: Red Cape +1
Waist: Penitent's Rope
Legs: Druid's slops
Feet: Inferno Sabots
Ammo: Morion Tathlum
Food: Melon Pie +1

Hope that helps with Helix info <_<;..

Edit: 228 Elemental Magic Skill (only 4 ELemental magic merits '-'

[Enygma55]

It would seem that the weather spells don't override the same weather in the zone but infact stack with it.

[Lordwafik]

It would seem that the weather spells don't override the same weather in the zone but infact stack with it.

Yep, it appears so, but a bit odd. Yesterday I was exp'ing in Garliage Citadel, and when I hit 51 my thunder2 hit for a consistent 300 (jupi staff nuke perma bonus). It turned into lightningsday, and then it went up to 330 occasionally, I added weather, and then it would go up to 360 sometimes. Now the weird thing is when it turned into lightning weather, sometimes it would hit for 376. I was expecting 390 with the Lightning weather + my weather + day (+10 +10 +10). Could it have been a partial resist? Or is the third weather bonus from a sch not counting as a full 10% bonus? Or am I looking at things wrong?

[Bosui]

I think the bonus from day and weather just caps out at +25% total, which makes sense with the 300 -> 376 damage you were reporting for double thunder and thundersday.

Edit: just looked it up on the wiki 'cause i'm an idiot, yeah that doesn't make sense, the bonus for double weather and day should be higher. maybe try testing weather buffs stacked onto natural weather on someone with an obi, see if it makes the same result or if that was some kinda fluke.