Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Custom M]

I agree Modus Veritas could be a stratagem, but it could also bear a Light Arts counterpart.
Though really, I don't think every stratagem should be mirrored to a 't'. Give Light Arts and Dark Arts each a definition.

[Towowo]

The only things I would like on SCH is innate Stoneskin,Blink,Aquaveil maybe Haste.
As a side note I would like to see charges meritable.

[Spider-Dan]

so long as dancer keeps it's 15 second recast timer, I can't see them making any of the mages obselete.

Curing Waltz III has 10sec recast, Cure IV has 2.5sec cast and 8sec recast. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility as is.

Essentially, if a mage were limited to healing with C4 only (and MP was no concern), do you think they'd be able to get the job done? I don't see why they wouldn't, but admittedly I'm no mage.

[Ryushii]

so long as dancer keeps it's 15 second recast timer, I can't see them making any of the mages obselete.

Curing Waltz III has 10sec recast, Cure IV has 2.5sec cast and 8sec recast. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility as is.

Essentially, if a mage were limited to healing with C4 only (and MP was no concern), do you think they'd be able to get the job done? I don't see why they wouldn't, but admittedly I'm no mage.

No. WHMs have Cure V, and as a RDM I often have to use Cure III in a real emergency. It's a nice backup cure or main heal in a pt w/o any real emergencies where that much curing would be necessary, but it can't outrank a WHM or RDM.

[Max™]

so long as dancer keeps it's 15 second recast timer, I can't see them making any of the mages obselete.

Curing Waltz III has 10sec recast, Cure IV has 2.5sec cast and 8sec recast. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility as is.

Essentially, if a mage were limited to healing with C4 only (and MP was no concern), do you think they'd be able to get the job done? I don't see why they wouldn't, but admittedly I'm no mage.

No. WHMs have Cure V, and as a RDM I often have to use Cure III in a real emergency. It's a nice backup cure or main heal in a pt w/o any real emergencies where that much curing would be necessary, but it can't outrank a WHM or RDM.

It can however cover the weakness in the party nicely.

No refresh/buffer?

Focus on Quick/Box Step spams, and toss out enough cures that the healer can breathe.

Refresher, buffer? Go all out, spam your steps as you prefer, pop up reverse flourishes, fire off solo skillchains, rock all those toys, til the refresher leaves.. then you slide into a more supportive role and keep everyone standing.

[kenshyn]

[quote=Max™]

so long as dancer keeps it's 15 second recast timer, I can't see them making any of the mages obselete.

Curing Waltz III has 10sec recast, Cure IV has 2.5sec cast and 8sec recast. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility as is.

Essentially, if a mage were limited to healing with C4 only (and MP was no concern), do you think they'd be able to get the job done? I don't see why they wouldn't, but admittedly I'm no mage.

No. WHMs have Cure V, and as a RDM I often have to use Cure III in a real emergency. It's a nice backup cure or main heal in a pt w/o any real emergencies where that much curing would be necessary, but it can't outrank a WHM or RDM.

It can however cover the weakness in the party nicely.

No refresh/buffer?

Focus on Quick/Box Step spams, and toss out enough cures that the healer can breathe.

Refresher, buffer? Go all out, spam your steps as you prefer, pop up reverse flourishes, fire off solo skillchains, rock all those toys, til the refresher leaves.. then you slide into a more supportive role and keep everyone standing.[/quote:4x2hk3bp]


Dancer is pretty much tailor made for TP burn parties where everyone subs ninja and has NI the healing requirements go way way down pretty much and is easily handled by one dancer add 2 and its overkill especially against birds weak to piercing and having eva down allows all to eat meat for fast kills.....

[Wizerd]

WHMs have Cure V

And... so do DNCs. It comes 9 levels later, but it's still there.

[Bakthi]

WHMs have Cure V

And... so do DNCs. It comes 9 levels later, but it's still there.

I think he was more referring to recast timers, as in mages having cures on more than one. When I'm spamming cures on WHM (for Red vs. Blue, I cure the NPCs since we do it with 4), I have to alternate between IV and V even though I've hasted myself and am wearing haste gear. If someone is getting really pounded and screws up getting shadows back a few times, or their recast timers are down, the recast on waltzes might not cut it (especially pre-Ni on /NIN).

[Max™]

WHMs have Cure V

And... so do DNCs. It comes 9 levels later, but it's still there.

I think he was more referring to recast timers, as in mages having cures on more than one. When I'm spamming cures on WHM (for Red vs. Blue, I cure the NPCs since we do it with 4), I have to alternate between IV and V even though I've hasted myself and am wearing haste gear. If someone is getting really pounded and screws up getting shadows back a few times, or their recast timers are down, the recast on waltzes might not cut it (especially pre-Ni on /NIN).

The recast isn't quite as long as you're thinking though.

You're neglecting that Cure spells have cast times, and recasts.

Waltzs have recasts only, takes a bit different habit to get used too it, but up in melee range I find that even with Curing Waltz II, as long as people aren't taking 400-500 Damage at a time, I can keep up pretty well, just timing my cures with the mobs swings.

[rydiu sucks]

so long as dancer keeps it's 15 second recast timer, I can't see them making any of the mages obselete.

Curing Waltz III has 10sec recast, Cure IV has 2.5sec cast and 8sec recast. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility as is.

Essentially, if a mage were limited to healing with C4 only (and MP was no concern), do you think they'd be able to get the job done? I don't see why they wouldn't, but admittedly I'm no mage.

No. WHMs have Cure V, and as a RDM I often have to use Cure III in a real emergency. It's a nice backup cure or main heal in a pt w/o any real emergencies where that much curing would be necessary, but it can't outrank a WHM or RDM.

If you're saying that, you use Cure III to cure instead of IV in emergencies, and don't understand the underlying concepts of they pull the same hate just faster then you're retarded.

Cure IV spam, -35 enmity, I don't have issues, wherever I go. Gear better.

[Ryushii]

My entire point was that all the DNC's cures are on 1 timer, whereas WHMs and RDMs have 2-3 major cures that can be continuously alternated MP pending. DNC really does not have any emergency cure abilities on its own. Like people have pointed out, it works great in some parties, but you need to be careful with party setups and situations. It certainly does not work as a main type healer in as many situations as RDM or WHM.

To Rydiu: Sometimes I have to Cure IV>>Cure III in an emergency. Sorry that wasn't clear.

[Sho]

People said COR's Quick Draw failed when it was first released. Give it time for SCH and helix spells.

What people said that? QD was fucking OP from day one, when it worked on elegy, then it got toned down...

Majority of the COR I knew at the time that hated the awfully long recast.

[rydiu sucks]

My entire point was that all the DNC's cures are on 1 timer, whereas WHMs and RDMs have 2-3 major cures that can be continuously alternated MP pending. DNC really does not have any emergency cure abilities on its own. Like people have pointed out, it works great in some parties, but you need to be careful with party setups and situations. It certainly does not work as a main type healer in as many situations as RDM or WHM.

To Rydiu: Sometimes I have to Cure IV>>Cure III in an emergency. Sorry that wasn't clear.

I'm not Rydiu, I'm Geno (rydiu paid $5 to get my name banned for a week, woo).

Cure IV vs. Cure III on RDM:

1. Cure IV cures more HP per MP than Cure III, especially if you're /SCH and doing that method (which, works surprisingly well when you don't need status cures, but that's another story for another day, plus you gotta be really good at it).
2. Cure IV takes less time overall to cast than two Cure IIIs, giving you more time to cast other spells that are needed.
3. Cure IV only generates nearly the exact same enmity as two Cure IIIs.

So, in short, Cure IV benefits... less MP cost overall and more time to do other things... just let the person dip a little lower than normal, and hit a cure IV instead of III.

But whatever, micromanaging RDM that much isn't fun anyway.

And on your Dancer thing, it works well in a PT with RDM BRD when you need extra curing (read: Ule- Range, and yes, I'll go there if I have to). I wonder if Curing Waltz can fix Doom 100%. That'd be grand.

Back to Scholar:

Things that should be changed currently with Scholar (in my opinion, not going to overpower the job):

Spell List Changes -

• Scholar's inherently weak as a main job currently. It has access to the main RDM tiered spells, but it lacks everything else that a Red Mage has as its main job, therefore making it overall weaker than a Red Mage. Over the course of time, 10% dmg extra on a cast sometimes just doesn't cut it compared to the INT you'd normally get (talking obi here) and the MP of a Red Mage's Refresh/DoubleRefreshEquip.[/*:m:701j57rt]
• Scholar has zero innate enfeebling magic, but has Drain and Aspir. Given Manifestation's Help text (Makes the next Black Enfeebling Spell have an area of effect), why are Drain and Aspir (both Dark Magic anyway) the only two spells that Scholar innately has that can make use of this Strategem? It's pretty silly, and ridiculous.[/*:m:701j57rt]
• Scholar is pretty much a Red Mage when it comes to White Magic as well, however when you sub WHM to Scholar for status cures, it puts you weaker than a Red Mage again. Subbing White gives you the status cures and lets you do CuragaI+II without a strategem, Stoneskin and Blink, but... no Bind, Sleep, Gravity, or Phalanx. Yeah, sure, doing a 1000HP Curaga every 10 minutes is pretty cool (Divine Seal,Rapture,Accession,CureIV) but the usefulness of that is so limited it doesn't even matter.[/*:m:701j57rt]
• I'd want the following list of spells added to main job Scholar to put it on par with other mage jobs: Sleep, Bind, Gravity, Paralyze, Slow, Silence, Blind, Stoneskin, Blink. It's not asking for much, really... it's just asking to not be a freaking gimp.[/*:m:701j57rt]
• Another possible change would be to add a tier of merits that unlock different spells while certain Arts are active. You'd be able to cast certain extra White Spells (read: Status Cures) while in White Arts, and Sleep, Bind, Gravity etc while in Dark Arts. Normally a Scholar can cast whatever it wants, whenever it wants, so this would restrict the use of the spells to someone with mastery of the JA timers.[/*:m:701j57rt]

Helix Points -

• They're not overpowered. They're not underpowered. I'd like more damage on them, sure. Everyone would. But analyze how much damage they do per MP, and they're pretty close to on pair with tier IVs.[/*:m:701j57rt]
• Increased duration due to weather would be nice. Someone posted that it did that a long time ago--they were wrong. Oh well.[/*:m:701j57rt]
• Weather&Day procing 100% without needing an Obi is an incredibly nice touch and adds more damage to the Helix and prevents me from having to get another 5 obis, wooo.[/*:m:701j57rt]

Strategem Points -

• The timers are too freaking long. These were supposed to define Scholar too. They don't. Four minutes to do one special thing with a spell isn't good enough when your spell list is as gimp as it is. The equipment available isn't amazing either (I don't like walking around in Maat's Cap and Errant body all day long (and yes, yigit body sucks for Helices).[/*:m:701j57rt]
• It'd be interesting to increase the potency of different Enfeebling magics if the timers on Strategems were lessened--they should really increase the number of spells affected by that, because just having Damage spells and curing spells really isn't good enough.[/*:m:701j57rt]
• Accession -> Stoneskin is freaking awesome. Accession -> Aquaveil is sexy too.[/*:m:701j57rt]

I can't really think of much more to say right now... the job's currently really weak due to its reliance on subbing Red Mage to be able to be worthwhile. It kinda sucks that its that way, but there's not much we can do about it. It's also midnight and my brain's dead.

I've used Scholar once since I've hit 75 on it. Stupid Fish ISNM BC. Wasn't really cool, but was nice to give my BLMs an extra 10% damage, made me feel slightly worthwhile (though still gimp). Having to sub RDM is not my idea of a good time. Every time I want to play Scholar, it always ends up that another one of my jobs is better than it for the situation. If it's a long, drawn out fight, my Red Mage is usually needed for stability. If it's a short, quick fight, Black Mage gets the job done better.

Oh well, I'm going back to leveling PLD or DRG or something else. Maybe I'll screw with Dancer tonight for a change, who knows.

[Meian]

Is it at all possible that the AF may mention something relating toward Helicies? My only doubt is because you start to get them after you have all the AF. Possibly relating toward weather lasting longer...


After having gotten Geohelix and Hydrohelix, not too impressed with them so far. Hydrohelix on the Diremites in Aydeewa (sp) did about 60 at most and according to wiki they are weak to water. Maybe it'll get better when I start to fight Erucas.

Errant body > Yigit body? Mm ;;

Need more endgame tests!

[Genosync]

Is it at all possible that the AF may mention something relating toward Helicies? My only doubt is because you start to get them after you have all the AF. Possibly relating toward weather lasting longer...


After having gotten Geohelix and Hydrohelix, not too impressed with them so far. Hydrohelix on the Diremites in Aydeewa (sp) did about 60 at most and according to wiki they are weak to water. Maybe it'll get better when I start to fight Erucas.

Errant body > Yigit body? Mm ;;

Need more endgame tests!

well

1INT -> 1DMG
1MATK -> 1%DMG

while under 200DMG and diminishing returns not screwing you over 1INT > 1MATK
so meh

I was doing 135ish Geohelices to Eruca. Highest was like 169? with double earth+Ebullience. Modus'd that shit and did like 37% dmg to the mob in no time.

You have to Modus a helix very very fast to get the full damage on it... like even before you see your damage. Remember, the first actual DoT tick kicks in at 2 seconds.

Modus @1s:
Damage
2s: Damagex2
12s: Damagex2
22s: Damagex2

No Modus:
Damage
2s: Damage
repeat x4

So, if you Modus your helix fast enough... you do 7 of the initial damage rather than 6.

But ANYWAY, on to stuff people care about.

[Lordwafik]

I'm also dissapointed by my helices. They barely dent hypogryphs, no matter which helix I tried. At most I'd hit for 30 damage, but most came up as 3 and 15-27. Hippogryph aren't magic resistant, since I was nuking them down fine, but helix damage? Appauling. This is including all weather effects and jazz, even doubling up with the day of the week, and other times with zone weather.

[Aemora]

It would be retarded of Square-Enix to increase Helix Damage on the first AF armour, because you get your last piece at Lv60, and Helixes start at Lv61... There isn't one item of AF that boosts something that you don't yet have...

They may increase Weather effects to 20% with the Lv60 piece, or add another Stratagem charge, but ultimately I think that the AF will be packed with Skills and possibly some Dex, because SE likes it like that... Retarded stats for retarded slots.

Sup Corsair's Legs with INT lawlz!!!

[Custom M]

While I wouldn't pose it as absolute truth, but I think it would be appropriate for WotG jobs' AF2 to be released first, and AF delayed, opposite of ToAU jobs. Because AF2 comes from this time period anyway, and many NPCs wear AF2, it would be pretty silly for scholar and dancer NPCs to wear AF1.

Of course, "AF1" was already unveiled. Sort of. It was incomplete. Obviously we never for a minute believed they would really have no stats. But they wouldn't reveal it was in fact AF2 even if it were, moreover the test characters were level 60 and they had to be able to wear it.

Just food for thought. And maybe if this isn't planned hoping Dev team reads and considers this. You know how everyone is convinced SE is spying on them and implementing your suggestions (or the exact opposite of). I just thought it was appropriate to mention considering the post about helix spells coming after AF.

[BRP]

Artifact armor is also over 20 years old


(God damn these new smilies, finding that emoticon took too long)

[Spekkio]

Artifact armor is also over 20 years old


(God damn these new smilies, finding that emoticon took too long)

aye. if you remember your af hands quest, boghertz or whatever his funky ass ghosty name is cooked up your gloves a loooooong time ago. first you have to dig up the crusty, busted old gloves, then they need to be fixed. they're not made immediately. other pieces, on the other hand, are much more recent. for example, the whm af boots quest requires you to bring a pair of moccasins and a yagudo holy water so the issuer of the boots can make himself another pair. clearly this indicates the boots are hardly that unique and are unlikely to be 20 years old. also, bubble bobble smileys ftw!