Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Dreampainter]

I've enjoyed SCH so far for the most part, but it does pale in comparison to the other mage jobs using the same skill/spell sets.

I've really enjoyed the job too, and i'm almost done leveling it (just 4 more levels >_<)
I think this is supposed to be the case, as none of the interviews I have seen groups scholar with the mages in the game (rdm/whm/blu/blm). SE is really reluctant to refer to scholar as a mage and was the same way with summoner for a long time because our definition of mage is not the same as SE's. To us, a mage is any job that uses mp and spells. To SE, a mage is a job that completely relies on and is defined by thier spells and skill caps in each magic discipline.

I'm fine with this though as long as they add more non-magic updates to the job to further seperate it from the mage jobs. To be honest I hate playing mage jobs, and the only reason I picked up scholar is because of the job abilities. If they don't add more job abilities and charges for strategems, I will probably lock sch in the closet and deny all claims that I have leveled the job. (I so despise playing pure mage)

Weather spells need to be SIGNIFICANTLY powered up. Seriously, is a 15-30 minute duration that big of an issue? The bonus from said abilities isn't significant enough to really warrant them having such stupid durations (they are clickable off and overwritable by other weather buffs as well so it's not like you couldn't change it).

100% agree. These should last a longer time or be a much shorter recast than they are currently. Its hard to even use them repeatedly the way they are. They also need to be considering adding weather latent effects to a lot of the gear they are releasing in order to give more value to these spells.

When you think about the mage jobs in general what sets them aside from the others are the abilities that are job specific or unsubbable. SCH offers very little in this respect. It technically only has 2 unique magics

Well really this is where they mention scholar being different from the 4 mage jobs. The magic sch has is not supposed to be the thing that sets it apart like the mage jobs, but instead its job abilities and the different effects it can create using the job abilities and spells together set it apart and give it the ability to do something other jobs can't do. What i'm hoping for more than anything is meritable strategem charges or strategem recharge timer reduction, as well as maybe meritable strategems from category 2 that do different things from the ones we have now. I'm not against them adding 1-5 spells, but i'm not expecting spells alone to define this job based on what they've told us about the concept behind it.

anyway its going to be fun and can't wait to see what they do, since i've already like the job to begin with.

[Genosync]

I don't like to use 3rd party tools, and that does nothing to people who play on PS2 or Xbox.

It's a super simple fix SE can do that goes a long way to help the job.

Changing your dats isn't exactly a 'third party tool', but ok.

[Kaslo]

I don't like to use 3rd party tools, and that does nothing to people who play on PS2 or Xbox.

It's a super simple fix SE can do that goes a long way to help the job.

Changing your dats isn't exactly a 'third party tool', but ok.

But it can be abused (hi2u Aery darters)

[LD]

I think the point is more that even for SE, this should be a no-brainer and we shouldn't have to toy around with our clients to get it right.

[Not Kuno]

I don't like to use 3rd party tools, and that does nothing to people who play on PS2 or Xbox.

It's a super simple fix SE can do that goes a long way to help the job.

Changing your dats isn't exactly a 'third party tool', but ok.

Needing to change my dats isn't a legitimate fix as I don't do that either.

[Kaeko]

Random update on Helix damages...

These are at 75 SCH/RDM.

Was doing consistent 147 Cryohelices on Iceday (no weather) on the Antlion NM in Antlion ENM. 193 Cryohelix in Iceday, artificial weather, and Ebulliance.

Ebony Puddings - about 225 with correct day and weather and Ebulliance. I was able to solo these for 74>75. Easy chain 3s and about 6500 an hour. Not having stun was annoying but I just ran from the bad ones.

I'm really looking forward to any helix buffs by merit or whatnot. May try doing Bugbear ENM solo with this by just using Helix > Bind > run other side of room. I tried to solo the Antlion ENM like the video of the RDM doing it on stage6, but it's been ninja patched and you can't prevent it from burrowing anymore like the guy does on the video Helices are just so MP efficient, you can do a ton of total damage without a form of non-gear refresh.

[shukuffxi]

...May try doing Bugbear ENM solo with this by just using Helix > Bind > run other side of room..

Lemme know how your luck with Bind goes, i've posted it in a few places, but my Bind is completely and utterly random in that BC, regardless of what I do, on RDM. I have AF2 Hat, Cape, all the normal +skill gear, 6 Enfeebling Skill merits (rest are split between Elemental and Blue Skill), and i've tried full skill+ setup, full INT setup, mixing and matching... None of them seem anymore success than the others. Some days I Bind it every time, and sometimes it only Binds like 50% of the time, so without movement speed, you might be in in a lot of trouble.

Lemme know tho :O My mule is parked at one of the 3 levers to get across >_>

[Genosync]

Was doing consistent 147 Cryohelices on Iceday (no weather) on the Antlion NM in Antlion ENM. 193 Cryohelix in Iceday, artificial weather, and Ebulliance.

Interesting actually--I haven't gotten to test my numbers on any 'NM' type mobs outside of Jailer of Love at the moment.. lol

But doesn't JoL have 50% MDEF? 'cause if so, your numbers are almost equal to mine in terms of damage (95dmg Cyrohelix day+weather Ebullience'd).

Ebony Puddings - about 225 with correct day and weather and Ebulliance. I was able to solo these for 74>75. Easy chain 3s and about 6500 an hour. Not having stun was annoying but I just ran from the bad ones.

Needing stuns for puddings is gimp. But off that subject, it's good that Scholar still gets the magic damage bonus for helices that the other elemental nukes get.

I'm really looking forward to any helix buffs by merit or whatnot. May try doing Bugbear ENM solo with this by just using Helix > Bind > run other side of room. I tried to solo the Antlion ENM like the video of the RDM doing it on stage6, but it's been ninja patched and you can't prevent it from burrowing anymore like the guy does on the video Helices are just so MP efficient, you can do a ton of total damage without a form of non-gear refresh.

However, Scholar in general is currently so useless on high level mobs that it doesn't even matter.

[whoami]

Reduent question but has anyone tested if these can be MB? Id assume so but that could a nice way to around the acuraccy issue against tougher mobs and get a nice damage boost to it (25%? been a while sence i mb so cant remember the bonus damage to it)

[Toth]

Since so many have reached 70 as SCH, we'll finally getting a clear indication of a SCH's power. I am just about to hit 73 and I am elighted on how well the job as shaped out.

As a healer, I have many means of damage mitigation to help my party (Phalanxga, Blinkga, Stoneskinga, Regenga II), Cure IV, and /whm spells to ensure my party can stay healed. The 10% decrease in spell usage is really noticable as well. In fact, one could almost argue that Light Arts usage can come close to the MP management of Convert, even though Convert will always win out due to its instaneous nature. If SCH gets Raise II, then the job's popularity could really climb.

As /BLM, I am able to nuke very well. At 71 SCH, I was invited to Mt. Zhaloym for a manaburn. I thought I was too low but I really didn't have lots of problem. With lousy gear, I still managed 720 Tier 3 Nukes and weather bonuses greatly boosted my fellow BLMs. I alternated Accension + Hailstorm and Accension + Thunderstorm while I wasn't nuking.

Now at 72, as SCH/RDM, I have a base INT of 70. With errant head, body, hands, pants (HQ), Yigit feet, Ocean Rope, Tamas Ring, Diamand Ring, and Prism Cape, I have INT 70+50. With an elemental torque, I have an Elemental Skill of 261. Pretty solid for a nuker imo.

[Suiram]

I believe JoL is 75% damage, although this is from what I remember SMN saying 2 years ago, which I believe was also before the NM cumulative resistance for magic, so it probably is stronger in practice if you use magic to damage it.

[Toth]

I wouldn't say JoL has 50% MAB because my normal Blizzard IVs on JoL are always 620. I'd say around 40%.

[Kaeko]

Was doing consistent 147 Cryohelices on Iceday (no weather) on the Antlion NM in Antlion ENM. 193 Cryohelix in Iceday, artificial weather, and Ebulliance.

Interesting actually--I haven't gotten to test my numbers on any 'NM' type mobs outside of Jailer of Love at the moment.. lol

But doesn't JoL have 50% MDEF? 'cause if so, your numbers are almost equal to mine in terms of damage (95dmg Cyrohelix day+weather Ebullience'd).

Ebony Puddings - about 225 with correct day and weather and Ebulliance. I was able to solo these for 74>75. Easy chain 3s and about 6500 an hour. Not having stun was annoying but I just ran from the bad ones.

Needing stuns for puddings is gimp. But off that subject, it's good that Scholar still gets the magic damage bonus for helices that the other elemental nukes get.

[quote:koqjsj2b]I'm really looking forward to any helix buffs by merit or whatnot. May try doing Bugbear ENM solo with this by just using Helix > Bind > run other side of room. I tried to solo the Antlion ENM like the video of the RDM doing it on stage6, but it's been ninja patched and you can't prevent it from burrowing anymore like the guy does on the video Helices are just so MP efficient, you can do a ton of total damage without a form of non-gear refresh.

However, Scholar in general is currently so useless on high level mobs that it doesn't even matter.[/quote:koqjsj2b]

I'm not really trying to make the case that Helices shouldn't receive more buffs to even things out. I'm just of the belief that if something this new is already half way decent, it'll be pretty strong after future updates (more of a "glass is half full" approach). I was the one that posted the Helix info at Nidhogg. I'm well aware of the fact they suck on seemingly everything in the lvl85+ NM range.

Considering I do have a 75 BLM, the issues with Helix damage on high INT mobs or magic damage down mobs are pretty apparent to me. However, just because they are gimp on certain things, does not mean they should be dismissed as shitty until future updates. They are already pretty useful on a number of things. For harder solos, they seem to be pretty good since they don't resist a great deal. I know most people aren't soloers so it doesn't matter to them, but since I am, it does to me I guess.

Also, I'm curious how you get consistent high chains on puddings w/o stun The issue for my SCH doing puddings was not safety, but speed. Having to run from bad ga3s wastes time and sometimes unclaims the mob and it despawns if I don't hit it really quick... so annoying. Sleepga is also unavoidable. Not having stun also forces me to use stoneskin and blink for safety since I'll just to just eat "bad but not too bad" spells and nuke right through those, which wastes time again. When I do these normally on BLM, I rarely buff at all to save time and MP and rely on stun entirely. I'll usually hit 6 normally or 7 with 2hr if the camp is free. Seeing only chain 3 on SCH was pretty annoying.

[Lordwafik]

You can use sleep as a placeholder for stun on a -ga3, although I'm not sure how well it'd land from a scholar.

[Genosync]

Also, I'm curious how you get consistent high chains on puddings w/o stun The issue for my SCH doing puddings was not safety, but speed. Having to run from bad ga3s wastes time and sometimes unclaims the mob and it despawns if I don't hit it really quick... so annoying. Sleepga is also unavoidable. Not having stun also forces me to use stoneskin and blink for safety since I'll just to just eat "bad but not too bad" spells and nuke right through those, which wastes time again. When I do these normally on BLM, I rarely buff at all to save time and MP and rely on stun entirely. I'll usually hit 6 normally or 7 with 2hr if the camp is free. Seeing only chain 3 on SCH was pretty annoying.

It's all about abusing distances, mob deaggro ranges, and timers... I can get chain 4 reliably on my RDM/BLM. Really not much you can explain besides 'change the way you think', it's kind of a learned thing and not something you can really teach.

I mean, I'm sure you already know the distances at which spells from a mob will still go off (~27-28ish), take it from there and fix your non-stun soloing.

Should never rely on only one tactic to get you through anything in this game.

[Kaeko]

Also, I'm curious how you get consistent high chains on puddings w/o stun The issue for my SCH doing puddings was not safety, but speed. Having to run from bad ga3s wastes time and sometimes unclaims the mob and it despawns if I don't hit it really quick... so annoying. Sleepga is also unavoidable. Not having stun also forces me to use stoneskin and blink for safety since I'll just to just eat "bad but not too bad" spells and nuke right through those, which wastes time again. When I do these normally on BLM, I rarely buff at all to save time and MP and rely on stun entirely. I'll usually hit 6 normally or 7 with 2hr if the camp is free. Seeing only chain 3 on SCH was pretty annoying.

It's all about abusing distances, mob deaggro ranges, and timers... I can get chain 4 reliably on my RDM/BLM. Really not much you can explain besides 'change the way you think', it's kind of a learned thing and not something you can really teach.

I mean, I'm sure you already know the distances at which spells from a mob will still go off (~27-28ish), take it from there and fix your non-stun soloing.

Should never rely on only one tactic to get you through anything in this game.

Hmm I think I misinterpretted what you meant. I thought you meant that you could chain just as high w/o the use of stun somehow. I know you can do pretty well w/o it (evidence being I soloed to 75 that way), I was just curious how you could do just as well with or without it. It's such a great spell; I generally try to abuse it any chance I get. Using spell distances and things like that are a way around ga3s, but it wastes time, which I wasn't used to. This is my first real attempt at a job other than BLM so I guess it was just a bit disorienting to me.

Anyways, back on topic,

As far as going 4s on a RDM, I think SCH is still not on par with a RDM. RDM just gets much better gear choice, in addition to better MAB traits. I also wasn't 75 when I did them so I didn't have access to the last bit of gear like Novio. I may try to see if I can get 4s with a Novio now.

It takes quite a few more nukes to kill one relative to BLM, but I found that the MP efficiency is pretty good since you get that inherent -10% MP. Not having natural Conserve MP trait is a slight disadvantage though.

Another random Helix damage - 151 Cryohelix on Adamantoise. Firesday, no weather buff.

[Genosync]

Also, I'm curious how you get consistent high chains on puddings w/o stun The issue for my SCH doing puddings was not safety, but speed. Having to run from bad ga3s wastes time and sometimes unclaims the mob and it despawns if I don't hit it really quick... so annoying. Sleepga is also unavoidable. Not having stun also forces me to use stoneskin and blink for safety since I'll just to just eat "bad but not too bad" spells and nuke right through those, which wastes time again. When I do these normally on BLM, I rarely buff at all to save time and MP and rely on stun entirely. I'll usually hit 6 normally or 7 with 2hr if the camp is free. Seeing only chain 3 on SCH was pretty annoying.

It's all about abusing distances, mob deaggro ranges, and timers... I can get chain 4 reliably on my RDM/BLM. Really not much you can explain besides 'change the way you think', it's kind of a learned thing and not something you can really teach.

I mean, I'm sure you already know the distances at which spells from a mob will still go off (~27-28ish), take it from there and fix your non-stun soloing.

Should never rely on only one tactic to get you through anything in this game.

Hmm I think I misinterpretted what you meant. I thought you meant that you could chain just as high w/o the use of stun somehow. I know you can do pretty well w/o it (evidence being I soloed to 75 that way), I was just curious how you could do just as well with or without it. It's such a great spell; I generally try to abuse it any chance I get. Using spell distances and things like that are a way around ga3s, but it wastes time, which I wasn't used to. This is my first real attempt at a job other than BLM so I guess it was just a bit disorienting to me.

Anyways, back on topic,

As far as going 4s on a RDM, I think SCH is still not on par with a RDM. RDM just gets much better gear choice, in addition to better MAB traits. I also wasn't 75 when I did them so I didn't have access to the last bit of gear like Novio. I may try to see if I can get 4s with a Novio now.

It takes quite a few more nukes to kill one relative to BLM, but I found that the MP efficiency is pretty good since you get that inherent -10% MP. Not having natural Conserve MP trait is a slight disadvantage though.

Another random Helix damage - 151 Cryohelix on Adamantoise. Firesday, no weather buff.

not bad, considering that you got -10% dmg anyway (helix spells proc weather/day 100%).

[Spekkio]

You can use sleep as a placeholder for stun on a -ga3, although I'm not sure how well it'd land from a scholar.

while they're long ticks, it still would be sketchy using sleep as a stun when there's a DoT on the mob.

[Leeto]

doesnt matter if its woken after or not, as long as it's slept partway through its cast the spell will not go off.

[Genosync]

doesnt matter if its woken after or not, as long as it's slept partway through its cast the spell will not go off.

bzzzt, wrong