Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Wizerd]

doesnt matter if its woken after or not, as long as it's slept partway through its cast the spell will not go off.

I invite you to test this while casting AM on your BLM. Get slept, get cured, all well before your AM fires.

[Leeto]

I'm aware that it doesn't work on players (happens sometimes while on brd at colibri) but I've never seen it not work on normal mobs

[Genosync]

I'm aware that it doesn't work on players (happens sometimes while on brd at colibri) but I've never seen it not work on normal mobs

bzzzzt still wrong.

Seriously, go try it. You're wrong.

[Toth]

Also, I'm curious how you get consistent high chains on puddings w/o stun The issue for my SCH doing puddings was not safety, but speed. Having to run from bad ga3s wastes time and sometimes unclaims the mob and it despawns if I don't hit it really quick... so annoying. Sleepga is also unavoidable. Not having stun also forces me to use stoneskin and blink for safety since I'll just to just eat "bad but not too bad" spells and nuke right through those, which wastes time again. When I do these normally on BLM, I rarely buff at all to save time and MP and rely on stun entirely. I'll usually hit 6 normally or 7 with 2hr if the camp is free. Seeing only chain 3 on SCH was pretty annoying.

It's all about abusing distances, mob deaggro ranges, and timers... I can get chain 4 reliably on my RDM/BLM. Really not much you can explain besides 'change the way you think', it's kind of a learned thing and not something you can really teach.

I mean, I'm sure you already know the distances at which spells from a mob will still go off (~27-28ish), take it from there and fix your non-stun soloing.

Should never rely on only one tactic to get you through anything in this game.

Hmm I think I misinterpretted what you meant. I thought you meant that you could chain just as high w/o the use of stun somehow. I know you can do pretty well w/o it (evidence being I soloed to 75 that way), I was just curious how you could do just as well with or without it. It's such a great spell; I generally try to abuse it any chance I get. Using spell distances and things like that are a way around ga3s, but it wastes time, which I wasn't used to. This is my first real attempt at a job other than BLM so I guess it was just a bit disorienting to me.

Anyways, back on topic,

As far as going 4s on a RDM, I think SCH is still not on par with a RDM. RDM just gets much better gear choice, in addition to better MAB traits. I also wasn't 75 when I did them so I didn't have access to the last bit of gear like Novio. I may try to see if I can get 4s with a Novio now.

It takes quite a few more nukes to kill one relative to BLM, but I found that the MP efficiency is pretty good since you get that inherent -10% MP. Not having natural Conserve MP trait is a slight disadvantage though.

Another random Helix damage - 151 Cryohelix on Adamantoise. Firesday, no weather buff.

I have to humbly disagree about the whole RDM vs SCH debate. There shouldn't be a damage competition between the two jobs, especially since that RDMs and SCHs have almost the exact same MAB gear (save for Zenith Mitts and Morrigan's) and a RDM needs to sub SCH to have a decent elemental skill. Instead, I see SCH as a companion for RDMs in magic support. SCH at this very beta-like stage is a job that provides bonuses for magic users around them with their weather spells. Even if a RDM nukes harder, a SCH will not be far behind and an Accension'd weather spell will increase the entire party's overall damage. In a way, BRDs, RDMs and SCHs complement each other: BRDs and RDMs refresh a party's MP while a SCH increases a party's overall magic power and accuracy.

[Kaeko]

I was comparing RDM/BLM to SCH/RDM nuking wise to compare chains at puddings. Even so, I don't agree with some of your points.

Even though RDM gets only 230 Elemental Skill (SCH 256 in Dark Arts), RDM gets so much more gear choice that they can get equal or better skill when reasonably geared (similar to how a good BLM still has more Enfeebling skill than a SCH despite having only 230 base). This is a gear issue which should be remedied over time; although, considering there is still no AF1+1 or AF2 for the ToAU jobs, I'm not too sure.

As far as support, SCH cannot really match RDM because they lack Refresh and Haste. You can make an argument that SCH provides something else unique, weather spells, but the durations on said spells make possible support difficult. As far as usefulness, there really is no comparison. This is probably where SE would want to buff SCH, as you said it's in really early 'beta' stage.

The problem with "complimenting" BRDs and RDMs is there are only so many spots in the party or alliance. You're definitely not going replace either of those jobs, and it would be really hard to make a good case for taking a SCH in one of the other slots at this point. This is not to say SCH can't do a good job in PT, it just won't be ideal.

SCH really needs something it does which is unique compared to other jobs. That is the only way it would get a party slot or alliance slot in ideal situations. I think it does in endgame in addition to some soloing advantages, but it's pretty non-ideal in exp parties, which is why I solo'd the entire way.

[Toth]

Even though RDM gets only 230 Elemental Skill (SCH 256 in Dark Arts), RDM gets so much more gear choice that they can get equal or better skill when reasonably geared (similar to how a good BLM still has more Enfeebling skill than a SCH despite having only 230 base). This is a gear issue which should be remedied over time; although, considering there is still no AF1+1 or AF2 for the ToAU jobs, I'm not too sure.

I see your points but I just wanted to ask a question about this. Aren't the af hat and af2 legs the only RDM exclusive items that give RDMs +elemental skill? If so, then SCH already has the advantage of equipping Mahatma legs for better nuking power.

[shukuffxi]

The thing is, for many things, a RDM doesn't need *extreme* Elemental Magic Skill+ to land it's nukes. Basically it's either something that's difficult to nuke (i.e: Wyrms, etc) and you won't be using a RDM for it, or it's something a RDM can nuke, and usually can land them without difficult in things we can solo (Vivian, Fenrir, Apollyon NW). Not to mention that our Blizzard III has fine accuracy since many RDMs merit Ice Magic Accuracy 5/5 (+15 M.Acc to Ice magic), toss in AF Hat, Aquilo's Staff, Elemental Torque, and Merciful Cape, that's +32 Elemental Magic Skill (Total: 262) then toss in +15 M.Acc, you're really not going to have much issues landing your Blizzard IIIs. On an average mob, it's fairly easy for me to land 650ish Blizzard IIIs with consistancy, and to be honest, I rarely encounter many Thunder III resists either.

Of course, like I said, this is on mobs we can land nukes on. Scholar seems more damage focused, and I would hope it would be able to be able to land either it's nukes or helices nearly as reliable as a BLM can, for as much power as possible, and I really hope SE gives Scholar some nice buffs, whenever the update happens, it just feels too weak all around.

[edit] I wouldn't mind seeing them lower the recast of Light Arts/Dark Arts though, I like the possibilities of using an Ugly Pendant on my RDM, /SCH, for certain things (Brothers ENM, Bionic Bug, etc), but the recast on those JAs is pretty harsh when you're switching from Bind -> Refresh > Haste > Gravity > Blizzard III > Refresh, and requires a decent amount of time spent waiting for your timers, or casting a spell under the wrong JA, defeating the purpose of subbing it at all on RDM. Of course, I see this mainly for solo/duo of certain things, not for main stream RDMing.

[Genosync]

Should seriously check out my RDM (pre-WotG) on Fafnir; my damage is kinda funny.

Lightning Accuracy Lv5
Elemental Skill Lv8

AF1 hat
Ele Torque
HQ staff
Moldy Earring
Magnetic Earring (start loling, idc)
Snow Ring x2 (Balrahn's if I feel the need)
Morrigan's Robe
Prism Cape (yep, no Merciful here)
Morrigan's Cuffs
Penitent's Rope
Duelist's Tights
Morrigan's Pigaches (yep, not even yigit)
and I think I hit all the equip slots

That kind of nuking setup makes you a ridiculous MATK Red Mage... there's multiple ways to play the job. Just because you might think a nuking RDM is wrong and the only way is an Enfeebling RDM, or you even need Scholar sub to nuke on RDM (which makes me even better at nuking and get resisted almost never, I'd probably even be able to nuke Kirin), you really haven't thought about the job completely. Red's that completely versatile job that until you see every side of the game, you can't bring out the full potential of your Red Mage.

If I'm in a Black Mage party at a high level mob, I can guarantee you that I'm going to sit right along side the BLMs I'm refreshing and blow shit up too.

Back to Scholar:

This is where Scholar now falls.

You can do everything on RDM, and still have status cures, that a Scholar can... however, a Scholar can't do crap about crowd control, or have Magic Attack Bonus (which Lv1 is 20%) JT without subbing RDM (or crappy fail Scholar SJ blm). Access to Elemental Skill, Enfeebling Skill, and Magic Attack gear is way higher on Red Mage as well...

The idea of a high DoT type spell, is to be used on a high level mob that is usually a long fight, making the idea of a lesser hate spell that does high damage in the end very appealing. Helices fall in this case because on said higher level mobs, they get resisted--way too much. DoTs are meant to be constantly going on the monster, and when you get resisted on a helix... you're wasting a lot of mp for damage. Sure, the hate's still low... but the dmg/mp ratio is screwed, hard. Really, there's no good way to get it going right now until SE gives us AF, or changes the resist rate of helices (or, preferably, lower the damage slightly and make it 100% accurate, but yeah right).

Meh, oh well. I need to go update the wiki like I told Sept I'd do a while ago.

[ronin sparthos]

An idea for Scholar i posted on another thread:

'I was always under the impression that when SCH used the light/dark arts that certain spells would only appear when you activated the arts. (This is pre-WotG launch) I figured that the status cures would appear for light arts and enfeebles for dark arts. I dont see why it isnt so, the job is a mage with too much dependance on a subjob as is. Maybe only spells that appear with the weather effects would help to differenciate SCH from RDM? They wouldnt be spells that you actually buy, they would exist as latent spells that only appear as long as the weather is on your side. A Scholar is supposed to be smart strategist, so the weather effects can spark new spells that wouldnt otherwise be able to be casted. (Of course this limits what they can do with them, MP-wise)

Example:

Windstorm -> Player is now under a wind effect -> Flurry (Like in Nyzul)
Firestorm -> Players now under a fire effect -> Amnesia (weakened of course.)
Rainstorm -> Players now under a water effect -> Toad/Poison II
Noctostorm -> Players now under a dark effect -> Aspir II
Thunderstorm -> Players now under a thunder effect -> Stun
Aurorastorm -> Players now under an aurora effect -> Raise II
Sandstorm -> Players now under an earth effect -> Slow II

Now of course the levels that you'd get all the spells the storms open up for you would vary and spells like Amnesia/Toad wouldnt last long at all and probably have no use at an HNM but the idea in theory that -storms open up new spells is something that could work. (im just eyeballing what could work, given more thought more realistic spells could be put in)

Basically with my idea you'd have a job thats more a geomancer than RDM, a job that starts off as a hybrid RDM/BLM but with its unique weather spells get access to stronger, more potent spells that would only be useable as long as the weather favors you.' (In areas with natural weather you'd be in luck.)

Hopefully SE makes SCH more its own job and not a RDM or BLM clone.

[Genosync]

An idea for Scholar i posted on another thread:

'I was always under the impression that when SCH used the light/dark arts that certain spells would only appear when you activated the arts. (This is pre-WotG launch) I figured that the status cures would appear for light arts and enfeebles for dark arts. I dont see why it isnt so, the job is a mage with too much dependance on a subjob as is. Maybe only spells that appear with the weather effects would help to differenciate SCH from RDM? They wouldnt be spells that you actually buy, they would exist as latent spells that only appear as long as the weather is on your side. A Scholar is supposed to be smart strategist, so the weather effects can spark new spells that wouldnt otherwise be able to be casted. (Of course this limits what they can do with them, MP-wise)

Example:

Windstorm -> Player is now under a wind effect -> Flurry (Like in Nyzul)
Firestorm -> Players now under a fire effect -> Amnesia (weakened of course.)
Rainstorm -> Players now under a water effect -> Toad/Poison II
Noctostorm -> Players now under a dark effect -> Aspir II
Thunderstorm -> Players now under a thunder effect -> Stun
Aurorastorm -> Players now under an aurora effect -> Raise II
Sandstorm -> Players now under an earth effect -> Slow II

Now of course the levels that you'd get all the spells the storms open up for you would vary and spells like Amnesia/Toad wouldnt last long at all and probably have no use at an HNM but the idea in theory that -storms open up new spells is something that could work. (im just eyeballing what could work, given more thought more realistic spells could be put in)

Basically with my idea you'd have a job thats more a geomancer than RDM, a job that starts off as a hybrid RDM/BLM but with its unique weather spells get access to stronger, more potent spells that would only be useable as long as the weather favors you.' (In areas with natural weather you'd be in luck.)

Hopefully SE makes SCH more its own job and not a RDM or BLM clone.

holy shit I never thought of this

this is gold, fucking gold

[Toth]

Excellent ideas there!

The first update for the job should be tantalizing. For all we know, SE could be readying to throw us one heck of a curve ball. And we haven't even started to discuss possible merits categories yet.

P.S Am I the only one who thinks that the AF weapon will not be a weapon at all, but a revised Grimoire that will gives us either higher skill caps and/or new spells/abilities?

[Not Kuno]

Wow that's actually a really cool idea. I just hope they adjust the duration/recast so it's feesable to apply weather to more then one person.

[Sho]

It'll be a pole Ideas like that always go over SE's head. Could see a INT heavy pole (heavy like 2-4 INT), however.

[spooky]

My money would be on a club with lametastic stats.

[BRP]

I just hope they adjust the duration/recast so it's feesable to apply weather to more then one person.

Shouldn't they just make them AoE?

[Toth]

My money would be on a club with lametastic stats.

See I would have thought the same thing myself until PUP along and SE gave us something that we still use at 75

[ronin sparthos]

What many are hoping that SE draws the line in the sand with the next update and makes SCH something all its own and not 'a replacement BLM' or 'fake RDM'. The job has the potential to be something more Geomancer-ish.

I think that they should add a line of weather AOEs on top of the single target storms, for the sake of recasts and unique spells for Scholar.

[Sagacious Sundi]

How would making storms AoE and/or adding a second tier (double weather, around the level range they get helices) go about? Not knowing much about SCH, I have no idea if that would be pointless, broken, or something else.

[liefe]

An idea for Scholar i posted on another thread:

'I was always under the impression that when SCH used the light/dark arts that certain spells would only appear when you activated the arts. (This is pre-WotG launch) I figured that the status cures would appear for light arts and enfeebles for dark arts. I dont see why it isnt so, the job is a mage with too much dependance on a subjob as is. Maybe only spells that appear with the weather effects would help to differenciate SCH from RDM? They wouldnt be spells that you actually buy, they would exist as latent spells that only appear as long as the weather is on your side. A Scholar is supposed to be smart strategist, so the weather effects can spark new spells that wouldnt otherwise be able to be casted. (Of course this limits what they can do with them, MP-wise)

Example:

Windstorm -> Player is now under a wind effect -> Flurry (Like in Nyzul)
Firestorm -> Players now under a fire effect -> Amnesia (weakened of course.)
Rainstorm -> Players now under a water effect -> Toad/Poison II
Noctostorm -> Players now under a dark effect -> Aspir II
Thunderstorm -> Players now under a thunder effect -> Stun
Aurorastorm -> Players now under an aurora effect -> Raise II
Sandstorm -> Players now under an earth effect -> Slow II

Now of course the levels that you'd get all the spells the storms open up for you would vary and spells like Amnesia/Toad wouldnt last long at all and probably have no use at an HNM but the idea in theory that -storms open up new spells is something that could work. (im just eyeballing what could work, given more thought more realistic spells could be put in)

Basically with my idea you'd have a job thats more a geomancer than RDM, a job that starts off as a hybrid RDM/BLM but with its unique weather spells get access to stronger, more potent spells that would only be useable as long as the weather favors you.' (In areas with natural weather you'd be in luck.)

Hopefully SE makes SCH more its own job and not a RDM or BLM clone.

Amnesia is water based (test with a summoner using a water elemental and its resist rate vs it) so I don't think it would be an appropriate ability to add to water. Virus (plague spell) is already in the game though, and that would work well for fire.

As for Light, I'd like to see Reflect put into play (give it a longish cast time, maybe 3 min recast as well and only works vs a limited amount of magic ala Utsusemi).

For Earth, Break (limit it to 30 second duration max and have a large variable resist rate, kind of like stun, but long recast)

As for Aspir 2, make it the same strength as aspir 1 and cost more MP, but have the MP recovered affect the entire party (ie, you recover 90, party recovers 90)

edit : I think Arts/storm specific magic is a great idea though..

[Not Kuno]

I wouldn't want weather spells to be aoe. Just shorten recast/increase duration to I can actually have it on a few different people.