Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[ronin sparthos]

Flurry is a status boost first revealed in Nyzul Island, its like a direct Haste for physical hits. It doesnt lower recast timers but it directly lowers delay.

It's like a focused Haste spell.

[Ryushii]

Someone mentioned the whole SCH having -10% mp cost, but BLM having Conserve MP. Just wanted to point out that Conserve MP is only 7.5% mp savings over time, so SCH wins in that department at least. Better yet, sub BLM and get both (obviously not a good choice in many situations...)

[evilpaul]

Kaeko, has anyone done Enmity testing on SCH job abilities yet? The MPCost/2 one seems really low Enmity, but I haven't done any extensive testing since I'm in VD atm.

Also, if I can waste more of your time, info on where/how you soloed to 74 on SCH would be very much appreciated. :D I got BLM to 75 shortly after CoP came out, SMN after ToAU, and NIN and MNK after that, so I missed the bad new days of no BLM invites and other than BST pets or something I'm not sure what you'd do.

[Kaeko]

Ashi and I actually haven't done any Enmity stuff since early December It's interesting when you reach conclusions but it can be incredibly dry when experimenting and trying to control all those annoying variables. We just kind of needed a break.

As far as soloing goes, I technically didn't "solo" all the way, but I did do it all alone.

Until 40 - Easy, follow Lionheart's BLM soloing guide.

40-52 - I didn't actually solo this. I parked my butt AFK in mtzhayolm and solo'd puddings on my brother's BLM/RDM. Because of the way EXP cuts scale with level difference, the amount of EXP you have to solo on the lvl75 character to get 1 lvl on the lower lvl character actually goes DOWN as you level in this range. I chose not to use the soloing guide for this becuase of the difficult camps It's about 13,000 EXP on the lvl75 per level when you start, and 11,500 EXP on the lvl75 at 52.

52-58 - Newton Mol. D-11 Camp. Heavily camped Very annoying levels

58-64 - Fossorial Flee in Aydeewa Subterrane. These can be tough. I use gravity/bind to deal with it. Rarely camped, very good EXP with sanction.

64-70 - Newton Mol. G-9 Camp. This spot is taken a lot of times, so if it's taken, I go RNG Qiqirn in Aydeewa Subterrane. Not too heavily camped and reasonable EXP there.

70-72 - Alzadaal Undersea Ruins RNG Qiqirn. EXP is really good per kill, but slow kills since they have normal HP.

72-75 - Ebony Puddings in mtzhayolm. I had to wait until 72 to get Mahatma gear access. It ups the damage considerably, especially on Helix Spells (Helix spells suck before 72, but instantly jumped up like 50+ damage when I got Errant).

[Miltani]

i don't think the mp/2 gives very low emnity because I was able to turn the mob against me with it after my rdm fren cure 4 bomb me.

[Halion]

Just in case SE reads any of this ever I'll add my two cents.

Making SCH a unique job sounds like a much better idea than making it a replacement for RDM or BRD or WHM or BLM or any gimp hybrid of the 4. I'm lvling SCH for something different not to play the same job with a skirt on.

Increasing the duration of weather spells is a good idea, but if unique spells are added for the SCH to have while under weather not the recast. If the recast is low then the extra spells cant be very powerful, but if the recast is still long I think you have more room to open it up.

I won't talk on Helices yet because I don't have them but I would love for this to be a really outstanding and job defining debuff for SCH. I love DoTs and they are what got me the most excited about this job.

Rather than Light Art and Dark Art recasts being taken away, I would prefer that White and Black magic were the two Grimoires instead of different categories of magic being fully lumped into one or the other, which places White magic spells under a "Dark" Grimoire and vis versa.
For instance, white magic enfeebles such as Paralyze getting a skill bonus and an MP/cast time penalty under Dark Arts would not be changed by taking away the recasts.
If this is possible, I would like to see something along the lines of changing it to Sacred Arts and Scourge Arts; in a way similar to Crafting imagery it could auto-detect the skill for the spell you are casting without showing it on your magic skill cap list. This way casting any White Magic spell under Sacred Arts would give you a skill and MP/cast time bonus while casting any Black Magic under Scourge Arts would do the same. Naming them Light and Dark is kind of misleading, because Paralyze is a white magic spell, but it is also Ice based AND it is an Enfeebling spell which is lumped under Dark Arts. It still might be a little annoying when you want to do Light and Dark things alternating, but to me this is part of the battle tactics.

Another fun thing for weather would be to make a super weather, so that spells that aren't related to damage will gain potency instead in the style of COR cards. Even regen could gain an extra HP per tic under Aurorastorm. It's not game-breaking, but it adds to the flavor of the job.

I don't want SCH to have Refresh or Haste. I really like the aforementioned idea of having unique spells while under weather, and if you get a little more creative with it this is the area where you could really make SCH more desirable for merit parties and end game alliances. These spells would have to be very particular in their max potency and some also in recast and MP cost, and yes some are stolen from past FFs . Seeing the whole list together might make some people scream overpowered, but consider the limitation on weather spells.
•Windstorm - Flurry - I can't decide if I like this idea or not, how much effect does it have on melee delay? Do I remember correctly that it has a more pronounced effect on casting time? Perhaps a shortlived third eye type buff.

•Firestorm - Heat (Targets loses HP for taking action) - This would stack nicely with Pyrohelix for end game situations.

•Rainstorm - Bubble Aegis(Gives a magic defense bonus) - or Rainbow Aegis(Gives a +# to all elemental defenses)

•Noctostorm - Osmose - Building on the idea of Aspir II being a -ga instead of more potent, it transfers the MP you aspired to a target you select. Or Demi - %cut on MP usage to the target.

•Thunderstorm - Champion (Gives the effect of crit rate up)

•Aurorastorm - Esuna (Could cure 2-3 status effects at once) or Regain could also work here

•Sandstorm - Break - A nice alternative to just lumping in Stun again.

•Hailstorm - Freeze - Instead of trying to force Virus or Amnesia into one of the other categories, Freeze could be a gradual negative Store TP. - Or Frozen Aegis which would cause the the next move by an enemy after striking a player buffed with it, whether it be a physical or magic attack, to suffer a cast and/or recast penalty.

I think this job has a lot of potential if SE doesn't show the fear in tweaking it that they have shown towards other jobs in areas they screwed up. For once I wish they would not worry about going overboard knowing they can nerf it later if they do.

[Enygma55]

SCH wont ever get refresh or haste. Im debating Regain if they ever release that spell. Its designed to be a psudo blm not rdm. Granting SCH stoneskin and blink pretty much completes the necessary spell list for the job to function as it was intended -- Enhancing of the backline not front.

As for ability (which is what makes the job unique) they should definately reduce charge timers and/or add more. This is what the SCH is suppose to do, manipulate magic.

[Toth]

That begs to question though why, after all these years, shouldn't Refresh become sub-able? No one ever thought we could have a MP free healer after all. Besides, you use MP to cast refresh anyway. I fail to see how game breaking it could be. I do see however how it could have an unfortunate side effect of making SCH too much of a support job.

[Halion]

Because giving SCH Refresh at all is redundant and takes the fun out of having a brand new job. Even if you give it Refresh it will not be as good as RDM at playing the supporting or main healing healing role and probably not soloing either.

[Delekii]

Because giving SCH Refresh at all is redundant and takes the fun out of having a brand new job. Even if you give it Refresh it will not be as good as RDM at playing the supporting or main healing healing role and probably not soloing either.

What?

Giving sch refresh might be redundant, but as it stands scholar is ALREADY redundant.

[Genosync]

Because giving SCH Refresh at all is redundant and takes the fun out of having a brand new job. Even if you give it Refresh it will not be as good as RDM at playing the supporting or main healing healing role and probably not soloing either.

What?

Giving sch refresh might be redundant, but as it stands scholar is ALREADY redundant.

quoted for emphasis

[whoami]

Sch, to me so far, is fine till 60. Till then if i didnt have haste there wasnt a big issue with tanks (i had mostly pld but sometimes ninja's) magic damage did fine. Then 55 taou came and i usualy had a rdm for haste or brd for march but then 60 sch just hits a black hole of needing support spell to offer partys. Nukes are nice but your main healing or asked to main heal with a rdm its very redundent cause the rdm is still doing everything most the time unless melee and tanks take lots of damage for various reasons that means you can mean heal them so rdm could focus on other things like dispell haste enfebles etc. Wether spells while nice only seem to function as a helix boost for sch otherwise no one relly cares about getting them.

I've been toying around with a spell idea about adding a weak haste or refresh like spell to them at 60. say starts at 10% haste and grows to 15% party only 3 minutes or 1 mp a tic up to 3 mp a tic over 3 minutes and be party only while costing 45 mp 30 sec recast at lvl 60. Works out haste is between weakest smn hastega and a full haste (12.5% average it works out) and the eqivalint of ballad 2 with refresh. It would keep with the Over time thing sch have with helix.

If SE cant do that again why not give additional effects with wether that melee might want as well. Say wind wether gives a 10% haste effect with 3 agi to it, ice wether 3 int +10 ele skill, fire 3 str and 10% atk boost, thunder increased crits and 3 dex, earth resist damage effect (similiar to phalanx but could stack) +3 vit, water en poison effect (8hp a tic on proc maybe?) +3 stat, light +10 macc +3 chr, dark +10 conserve mp +3% mp. IK kinda weak there on that. Something else suggested to me by a friend maybe a job trait at 60 that increases any job traits subed to the next tier. EX /blm you get MAB trait 3 vrs 2 then /RMD MAB2 MDB 2 over 1 etc to give a boost so sch on what they chose as there sub job for situations to flesh it out more. IDK i just want sch to have some sorta support spell at 60 to make it usefull in partys and not have to warn leaders that i dont have haste when they invite me. Just tossing ideas out here cause im feeling frustrated that i can not properly support a party with haste when asked to heal when i can do main healing fine except for that.

[Damane]

Because giving SCH Refresh at all is redundant and takes the fun out of having a brand new job. Even if you give it Refresh it will not be as good as RDM at playing the supporting or main healing healing role and probably not soloing either.

I think the basic idea was to give SCH refresh at 37 so other mages can sub it for refresh later, which I dont mind at all. As it stands it would actually lift the imbalance between melees and mages a bit.

[TeancumMemsochet]

Because giving SCH Refresh at all is redundant and takes the fun out of having a brand new job. Even if you give it Refresh it will not be as good as RDM at playing the supporting or main healing healing role and probably not soloing either.

I think the basic idea was to give SCH refresh at 37 so other mages can sub it for refresh later, which I dont mind at all. As it stands it would actually lift the imbalance between melees and mages a bit.

I don't think SCH should ever get native refresh at any level. Doing so would make it over powered. Or has everybody that's suggesting that it should forget that refresh falls in the category of spells that can be accession'd? Think about having a SCH in the BLM PT at dynamis. Every 4 minutes the SCH could just Accession + Refresh. Then just add a COR or BRD and your BLMs would never run out of MP. And while that might seem like a good thing, it would be far over powered.

Not only that but we have 3 jobs that can refresh, 3 more that have auto-refresh, 2 abilities convert HP to MP, 1 that does TP to MP, and a crap load of gear that does the same thing. With all of that anybody having MP issues should change jobs and play one that doesn't need any MP. Part of the strategy of playing a mage job is managing MP. We don't need more ways to get MP. As it stands as an Elvaan WHM in dynamis I almost never have to rest w/ a RDM and barely have to rest w/out one, unless things turn bad.

I would rather have SCH fill some niche, like full on mage support. Buff up the weather spells and reduce the recast. Give us something like what COR/BRD give melee, but for the mages.

[BerenTebogo]

Teen...cum?

I approve of this message.

[Toth]

If you feel its overpowered, then maybe just make Auto-Refresh a lvl 35 job trait for SCH.

[Meian]

I can not agree with the whole making Refresh subbable. I was sure SE was wanting to make subs more versatile and chosen depending on what is done, so making /SCH with Refresh will make it choice as a sub. The job needs to be more unique on it's own.

As for Regain, I agree this would be a fair alternative over having Refresh/Haste. Same applies for the benefits of having appropriate weather spells casted. If the weather spells will last the same amount of time (and likely the same recast) then there has to be major benefits added that proc 100% of the time with the appropriate weather spell.

Question is, how much of a tic should Regain be to make it useful but not overpowered? 3/tic like Refresh with the same duration? Would be interesting to see some math involved with Regain TP gain vs. Haste TP gain in xp/meripo.

[Gilthas]

Because giving SCH Refresh at all is redundant and takes the fun out of having a brand new job. Even if you give it Refresh it will not be as good as RDM at playing the supporting or main healing healing role and probably not soloing either.

I think the basic idea was to give SCH refresh at 37 so other mages can sub it for refresh later, which I dont mind at all. As it stands it would actually lift the imbalance between melees and mages a bit.

I don't think SCH should ever get native refresh at any level. Doing so would make it over powered. Or has everybody that's suggesting that it should forget that refresh falls in the category of spells that can be accession'd? Think about having a SCH in the BLM PT at dynamis. Every 4 minutes the SCH could just Accession + Refresh. Then just add a COR or BRD and your BLMs would never run out of MP. And while that might seem like a good thing, it would be far over powered.

Not only that but we have 3 jobs that can refresh, 3 more that have auto-refresh, 2 abilities convert HP to MP, 1 that does TP to MP, and a crap load of gear that does the same thing. With all of that anybody having MP issues should change jobs and play one that doesn't need any MP. Part of the strategy of playing a mage job is managing MP. We don't need more ways to get MP. As it stands as an Elvaan WHM in dynamis I almost never have to rest w/ a RDM and barely have to rest w/out one, unless things turn bad.

I would rather have SCH fill some niche, like full on mage support. Buff up the weather spells and reduce the recast. Give us something like what COR/BRD give melee, but for the mages.

Or they could just make Accession not work with Refresh.

Not like I think it would be overpowered anyway.

[Spider-Dan]

Question is, how much of a tic should Regain be to make it useful but not overpowered? 3/tic like Refresh with the same duration? Would be interesting to see some math involved with Regain TP gain vs. Haste TP gain in xp/meripo.

1TP/tick = 20TP/min

For a reference point on something that's definitely "not broken," Samurai Roll averages Store TP+23.6 without a SAM, Store TP+32.8 with one.

If your garden variety DD takes 60sec to gain 100 TP, Samurai Roll would put them at 123~132, equivalent to 1~1.5 TP/tick. However, if your DD is well-geared and buffed, 30sec is a more accurate estimate, putting you at 147~165 (2~3 TP/tick).

Personally, I think even those numbers are a bit underwhelming. If Regain spell (and a new regain roll) were exactly equivalent to Refresh/Evoker's in TP/tick, that should be just fine.

[Spider-Dan]

I'm aware that it doesn't work on players (happens sometimes while on brd at colibri) but I've never seen it not work on normal mobs

bzzzzt still wrong.

Seriously, go try it. You're wrong.

In the context of this discussion, you are correct; the spell Sleep will not interrupt casting if the target is awakened before casting is complete.

However:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...jr/DoTtest.jpg

Light Shot, for whatever reason, interrupts regardless of if the mob wakes up or not.