Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Aemora]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kyreth]

Light Shot, for whatever reason, interrupts regardless of if the mob wakes up or not.

Verrrrry interesting. One more reason to merit my QD recast when I hit COR 75.

[Damane]

I don't think SCH should ever get native refresh at any level. Doing so would make it over powered. Or has everybody that's suggesting that it should forget that refresh falls in the category of spells that can be accession'd? Think about having a SCH in the BLM PT at dynamis. Every 4 minutes the SCH could just Accession + Refresh. Then just add a COR or BRD and your BLMs would never run out of MP. And while that might seem like a good thing, it would be far over powered.

Not only that but we have 3 jobs that can refresh, 3 more that have auto-refresh, 2 abilities convert HP to MP, 1 that does TP to MP, and a crap load of gear that does the same thing. With all of that anybody having MP issues should change jobs and play one that doesn't need any MP. Part of the strategy of playing a mage job is managing MP. We don't need more ways to get MP. As it stands as an Elvaan WHM in dynamis I almost never have to rest w/ a RDM and barely have to rest w/out one, unless things turn bad.

I would rather have SCH fill some niche, like full on mage support. Buff up the weather spells and reduce the recast. Give us something like what COR/BRD give melee, but for the mages.

accession + refresh will make SCH never overpowered as it stands now. The job is lacking in the attack department and support department massively

[Spider-Dan]

For what it's worth, I'd rather see SCH get a Regain spell than more same-old-same-old.

Outside of the fact that Regain is a useful alternative to Haste, if Squenix really does go through with their threats to make SCs relevant again, a spell that increases TP gain (and therefore WS usage) directly, regardless of attack or accuracy, could have a valuable spot... particularly at lower levels.

The often-mentioned scenario of harder mobs that take more damage from SC means that players would likely have reduced attack/accuracy on said mobs. Regain would help stabilize TP output, unlike Haste which relies on high accuracy to back it up.

[Damane]

For what it's worth, I'd rather see SCH get a Regain spell than more same-old-same-old.

Outside of the fact that Regain is a useful alternative to Haste, if Squenix really does go through with their threats to make SCs relevant again, a spell that increases TP gain (and therefore WS usage) directly, regardless of attack or accuracy, could have a valuable spot... particularly at lower levels.

The often-mentioned scenario of harder mobs that take more damage from SC means that players would likely have reduced attack/accuracy on said mobs. Regain would help stabilize TP output, unlike Haste which relies on high accuracy to back it up.

regain alone wont fix SCH by any means, the spelllist is just lacking in too many ways. I dont have a problem if a job is subjob dependend, as long as it can take a good amount of it and still stand by itself.

SCH tough cant stand alone by itself its lacking, regain alone wont solve the problem, because its overshadowed in any department by the masters of that department. for healing you will take a whm over a sch, for enfeeb and buffing you will take a rdm over a sch, for pure magical dmg you will take a blm over a scholar.

we have no crowd control, because we lack bind, gravity and sleeps (tough later on with rdm sub we have them), we cannot buff/debuff stuff because of the lack of enfeeb spells or enhancing spells (phalanx/stoneskin/haste/slow etc), we cannot nuke with strong power because our skill is lower then that of a blm (resist rate on HNMs!) and our spelllist for nukes is limited to that of a rdm.

SE stated SCH should be a master of DoT, if so then give SCH the following spells to strengthen the job:
elemental debuff line 1 and add line 2 exclusiv to SCH
regen III, regen IV, regenra 1, regenra 2, regenra 3(hell if you are a master of DoT, why not be a master of over time healing)
refresh (yes omg its rdm eclusiv! no it shouldnt be, regen II went also to SCH, refresh could follow the same line).
regain, altough I dont see the usefullness, its either too weak or will be either too strong.

buff the helixes a bit and make them stackable up to 4 like the elemental debuff line, fire wind thunder light helix stacks together, while water ice earth and dark helix stack together.
and then add an ability that has a recast time of 10 min that doubles the amount of pertic gained/dmg dealt by DoT spells and enhances the accuracy of it, however I would restrict that ability to not beeing stackable with any stratagems (just to prevent an accession overpowerd refresh for 6MP for all pt members).

and last buff the weather spells in duration and add a debuff line that weakens an enemy to a particular element, like the brd spells, but that sticks longer then 10-15 sec (like from ancient magic spells). make it stick 3-4 min if fully unresisted. the spells should not be stackable on an enemy.

with this added I can live fine as a SCH without any enfeebs, stoneskin haste etc.

[Ryushii]

accession + refresh will make SCH never overpowered as it stands now. The job is lacking in the attack department and support department massively

I want to know why anyone even thinks this is a good idea. As it stands, any RDM worth his weight in crawler dung can keep a pt of 6 mages refreshed 100% of the time. Why waste a perfectly good ability on something that could be done without it?

[Halion]

Because giving SCH Refresh at all is redundant and takes the fun out of having a brand new job. Even if you give it Refresh it will not be as good as RDM at playing the supporting or main healing healing role and probably not soloing either.

What?

Giving sch refresh might be redundant, but as it stands scholar is ALREADY redundant.

quoted for emphasis

Congratulations on ignoring my entire post before that. Adding FRESH, NEW spells will help SCH become unique. SE said they wanted SCH to be the ultimate SJ, which is obviously not working, therefore in my previously stated opinion (which you might want to try reading before you respond to me again) I would like to strengthen it as a main.

[ronin sparthos]

Currently locked black magic that could be adopted by SCH:

Ignis (Burn II) - activate w/firestorm?
Aer (Choke II) - activate w/windstorm?
Aqua (Drown II) - 'rainstorm?
Tera (Rasp II) - 'sandstorm?
(Frost II) - 'cyrostorm?
By giving SCH tier 2 elemental DoTs, the possibilities for being a DoT nuker while supporting would easily open up and at a lower level than the helixes. Potent status downs on the elemental DoTs would also double as an enfeeble effect for many uses. The idea of stacking these with the helixes could also be a possibility for endgame levels.

Confuse - Confuse is a tricky spell to put into FFXI, its old uses include confusing friend with foe and hitting the target or the target hitting itself in previous FFs meaned the effect instantly wore off. Possibly 'Confuse' could equate to an accuracy down effect + a chance of the target hitting itself? Unlocked by Windstorm.

Berserk - Berserk could equate to a spell that gives a player a weakened version of a warriors 'berserk effect' or work more like Amnesia + Silence where all a monster could do is attack constantly. (No TP or Magic) Unlocked by Firestorm.

Break - Could be like stun fused with sleep where a mob is helpless for a given amount of time. (Short duration for sure) Unlocked by Sandstorm?

Virus - Virus could work like a TP DoT or it could be more like Penance where it inhibits a monsters TP gain. Unlocked by Rainstorm?
Curse - Curse, a spell that would definately be nerfed if players could cast it. Possibly a combination of Gravity + HP down. Unlocked by Voidstorm?
Comet - Comet could a be a SCHs spell, their version of an 'AM'. High MP Cost, long recast and a hella of an explosion. All while leaving Mee-tee-oor for the BLMs. Unlocked via Aurorastorm?
Poison III-V - SCH could get poison III without being 'broken', unlocked via Rainstorm.

Along with Flurry, possibly Regain and some other spells SCH has the potential to be a capable mage all its own.

Another idea that could be nice is SCH being the catalyst (using a stratagem) for higher tier spells using a BLM or WHM in the party.

[Enygma55]

I think most of you guys are trying to create the ultimate melee support job not mage support job. Adding regain to SCH wont help the back line any so I doubt they will get that. 95% chance that Stoneskin and Blink will be added as a native spell so I dont think we should be discussing that anymore. It seems like there is a good chance they might get native enfeebling spells but thats still sketchy IMO.

I understand xp parties are an integral part of the game but SE doesnt design jobs to function in xp parties. If they do they do, if they dont they dont.

Refresh as a sub is just as broken as giving haste as a sub. As much as u think it wont break the game... it will. No longer will u need RDMs because you got smn/sch or whm/sch (which if given refresh is exactly the same as a rdm). SMN doubles as dmg and support. Hell even brd/rdm is pure broken. 6MP/tick from 1 job.... honestly.

[Spider-Dan]

regain, altough I dont see the usefullness, its either too weak or will be either too strong.

This logic baffles me.

So at x TP/tick it's so weak that it's useless, but at x+1 TP/tick it's so overpowered that it's broken? The margin of error between ineffective and overwhelming is less than 20 TP/min?

[Delekii]

Because giving SCH Refresh at all is redundant and takes the fun out of having a brand new job. Even if you give it Refresh it will not be as good as RDM at playing the supporting or main healing healing role and probably not soloing either.

What?

Giving sch refresh might be redundant, but as it stands scholar is ALREADY redundant.

quoted for emphasis

Congratulations on ignoring my entire post before that. Adding FRESH, NEW spells will help SCH become unique. SE said they wanted SCH to be the ultimate SJ, which is obviously not working, therefore in my previously stated opinion (which you might want to try reading before you respond to me again) I would like to strengthen it as a main.

That's wonderful - it truely is. I care a lot.

The fact is that while YOU might want that, many people just want another fucking job that can effectively take the place of support, instead of a quasi-nuker who is less desirable than the already largely undesired nuker in the game. NEW spells are great and all, but unless they fulfill a purpose that needs fulfilling they are gimmicks and no more. There are limited spots in any party/alliance, and most of them are filled by somewhat necessary jobs in the majority of situations.

[Spider-Dan]

I think most of you guys are trying to create the ultimate melee support job not mage support job. Adding regain to SCH wont help the back line any so I doubt they will get that.

To the contrary, Regain would directly contribute to making more SCs. While a buff like Haste benefits some jobs more than others, Regain would give anyone 100 TP in the same timeframe.

In a hypothetical world where SCs are re-emphasized (and yes, I realize that this part hasn't actually happened yet), Regain would be a tool that increases SC usage. More specifically, it would help level off TP gain between faster-TPing jobs and slower-TPing jobs; the fast-TPing job wouldn't have to throw away quite as much TP while waiting for the SC.

For example, suppose one job gets 100 TP in 30s and another gets 100 TP in 45s. Normally, the faster job would have ~150 TP by the time the slow job is ready to SC. However, give them both 3TP/tick regain and the fast job hits 100 TP in 23.1s, while the slow job hits 100 TP in 31.0s. Instead of waiting 15s (and "wasting" 50 TP), now the fast job is only waiting half as long and wasting 34 TP.

In other words, Regain reduces the penalty that a faster-TPing job experiences by waiting for SC. If you combine 3 TP/tick Regain spell with a ~3 TP/tick regain roll, almost every job will hit 100 TP at around the same time, which is basically guaranteeing that a SC will be performed (by any reasonably intelligent group of DDs).

It's not directly a backline buff, but it is an indirect boost to SCs.

[BRP]

I think some people need to realize some spells are simply unrealistic. Toad? Confuse? Reflect? None of these have spell forms. One is charm with costume(monsters don't get costumes), one is a "mimic" ability(they cast the spell back at you), and one has no form at all i nthe game. On top of this, none of them are remotely balanced. I won't say this for Break, because they can nerf it enough, but it'll pretty broken too in players' hands if it's even more than 5 seconds long.

Now Scholar? It doesn't need weird spells to be unique. It already has Stratagems, Helices, and Weather spells. Let them buff mages by handing those out on a timer and you got a potent buffer. Give them more stratagem charges to make use of this. With this in mind, add useful self-target spells only to WHM, BLM, and RDM and allow the only way to share this goodness is with a SCH. Imagine a BLM with a "Conserve MP+10-25" self-buff and SCH giving it to the entire party.

Give them a refresh and haste, but not one that will interfere with WHM or RDM, that'll weaken their mage buffing ability. Give them stratagems that'll give Ballad and March in form of stratagems so they can take a BRD's place(giving them a unique haste is almost game breaking at this point and would make actually hurt their chances of partying with anything not a BRD).

Helices need more magic accuracy... you can blame this on gear or maybe a lack of people doing SCs for them to be MB'd. I'd say let them give Magic Accuracy of the same element spell(perhaps to the SCH alone) so they can just overlap them or nuke better with them on. Weather needs a shorter recast or be AoE. I would suggest the latter. More weather specific gear. If SMN got something like "Weather: Increase Avatar Physical Potency, blah blah", SCH is also buffered.

Grimoire specific spells like status cures(perhaps a little more limited than /WHM) and black magic enfeebles(Bind, Sleep, Blind, but not gravity) wouldn't be terrible.

As for subbing... well, giving them Stoneskin and Blink seem obvious, if not boring. I think BLM and SMN need a buff in their own damage mitigation area.

[Kaeko]

I agree with BRP here...

You don't necessarily need a bunch of new spells to work with, you just need to carefully tweak existing ones. There is a fine line between a job being overpowered and a job being weak. Little changes like recast timers, accuracy and damage formulas, and MP cost can drastically improve things. Adding a ton of new spells may not do you any good in the long run because it will be even harder to balance; you may just end up with more gimmick, cool looking, but not useful spells.

I think BLU is the best example of this. BLU has so many unique moves, but a lot of them are not that desirable in practice because of things like MP cost, accuracy, or duration. SCH has a lot of cool concepts, but they need tweaking to go from "oh that's cool" to "oh that's useful".

Fix what's broken first I think.

[dekay]

I had an idea about Scholar; what if they made it so you can set your spell list like Blue Mage? What if it was from all the spells you've learned on different mage jobs? Anything from the black and white books. I think this would add the strategy element that Scholar is severely missing. You could make the cool down on setting spells longer than Blue Mage so that it wouldn't be overpowered, maybe 10 minutes?

All the spells could be level specific as well, like the Blue spells. I'm not saying give lvl 1 Sch the ability to set Thunder IV... but maybe at 75 he could. This would cost a good deal in points but could pick and alter your role in a party accordingly. Perhaps adding too many black magic spells would decrease the amount of white magic points you had?

In addition to this change they could make the Arts switching have more of a penalty to the opposite spell book. Maybe even give the Arts a recast time so you can't just swap between them whenever.

I know this idea has already been used in Blue Mage but it is a pretty good system. A lot of people are clamoring for more unique spells for Scholar and I totally agree. Perhaps some additional spells could be added ontop of this system.

[Ryushii]

In addition to this change they could make the Arts switching have more of a penalty to the opposite spell book. Maybe even give the Arts a recast time so you can't just swap between them whenever.

Have you read this or any thread about scholar at all? The Arts already have a rather restrictive 1min recast timer.

[dekay]

Have you read this or any thread about scholar at all? The Arts already have a rather restrictive 1min recast timer.

I stand corrected on that. I have read a lot of this thread but for whatever reason I had it in my head that it was an instant switch. Scratch that then. A one minute timer is more than enough for balance sake.

What do you think of the rest of the idea? Do you think that a spell list that can be equipped would make sense? Or would it just cause people to min/max like they do with every other job?

Also, could all spells be equipped or should it be certain spells that the Scholar job already gets? Perhaps instead of stat bonuses that come with Blue spells, it could be skill bonuses or bonus effects to the spell or type of spell it is (enfeeb, ehance, elemental).

I like what it already does for mage jobs in enhancing otherwise lower skills to B as a sub job. But should we really have jobs out there that are only to sub? You'd think SE could make this an attractive subjob while still retaining originality as a fully fleshed out job. I guess time will tell.

[Genosync]

Have you read this or any thread about scholar at all? The Arts already have a rather restrictive 1min recast timer.

I stand corrected on that. I have read a lot of this thread but for whatever reason I had it in my head that it was an instant switch. Scratch that then. A one minute timer is more than enough for balance sake.

What do you think of the rest of the idea? Do you think that a spell list that can be equipped would make sense? Or would it just cause people to min/max like they do with every other job?

Also, could all spells be equipped or should it be certain spells that the Scholar job already gets? Perhaps instead of stat bonuses that come with Blue spells, it could be skill bonuses or bonus effects to the spell or type of spell it is (enfeeb, ehance, elemental).

I like what it already does for mage jobs in enhancing otherwise lower skills to B as a sub job. But should we really have jobs out there that are only to sub? You'd think SE could make this an attractive subjob while still retaining originality as a fully fleshed out job. I guess time will tell.

it's obvious you haven't read much of the thread--and a discussion thread such as this should be read (at least almost) in its entirety.

try again later.

[Kaeko]

Slightly off topic...

But didn't RDM gain access to refresh in one of the future patches after release? I'm not sure what RDMs did in parties prior to this. RDM was originally conceived by SE as like the hybrid mage/fighter (and apparently still want it to be like this with the sword updates planned...) but most don't see it that way in parties.

My personal bet is some sort of 1 spell wonder like Refresh. Maybe a Flurry spell or a Regain spell. That would be the easiest way to "fix" SCH a spot in merit parties. A lot of the other ideas here sound cool, but do you really think SE would make that much effort giving so many new spells at once? They would all have to be balanced later on, too.

[Genosync]

Slightly off topic...

But didn't RDM gain access to refresh in one of the future patches after release?

Yes.

I'm not sure what RDMs did in parties prior to this. RDM was originally conceived by SE as like the hybrid mage/fighter (and apparently still want it to be like this with the sword updates planned...) but most don't see it that way in parties.

They enfeebled, cured, and hit things with their swords.

My personal bet is some sort of 1 spell wonder like Refresh. Maybe a Flurry spell or a Regain spell. That would be the easiest way to "fix" SCH a spot in merit parties.

Regain fixes one of the two problems--lack of haste and refresh, but does not fix both. Also, haste in essence is a form of not only regain, but greater DoT and lowered recast timers. So Flurry would have to be higher delay reduction and not nerf TP gain than what Haste currently offers to be a more suitable alternative.

A lot of the other ideas here sound cool, but do you really think SE would make that much effort giving so many new spells at once? They would all have to be balanced later on, too.

I don't know--they gave Red Mage more nukes and Refresh and took away a couple things... don't really know.