Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Evelyn]

the eintire point of this job is that we utilize SOME of the spells from the WHM and BLM sides. Regen III is just plain unnecessary. Its not even as efficient in HP cured per MP as Regen 1 is.

And definitely not refresh. I don't want this job to turn into another refresh whore like my RDM is. God knows I cast it enough. We need UNIQUE spells to become more wanted at end-game. If SCH gets refresh, whether using the ballad or spell buff slot, people are just going to use RDMs or BRDs since they bring more to the party (useful enfeebles and buffs for all jobs vs. spells only useful to mages, plus better MP usage and more efficient healing)

I forgot about the no-native-enfeeble thing though, a couple of those would be nice.

[Not Kuno]

What do you guys recommend as a SCH headpiece? I used to gimp it up in vermy but I'm almost 72 and can wear errant, and I realized I don't have any head pieces (all I have is af, morrigan, demon helm etc). Yigit isn't an option due to 4x a week salvage, and all I can really think of is elite beret.

[BRP]

And definitely not refresh. I don't want this job to turn into another refresh whore like my RDM is. God knows I cast it enough. We need UNIQUE spells to become more wanted at end-game. If SCH gets refresh, whether using the ballad or spell buff slot, people are just going to use RDMs or BRDs since they bring more to the party (useful enfeebles and buffs for all jobs vs. spells only useful to mages, plus better MP usage and more efficient healing)

Let them apply stratagems to party members(on a timer of course) and give them a March stratagem to go along with the ballad. You have lot of utility BRD or RDM can't touch because no job in the game makes another mage's spell AoE or 30% more damage, etc.

So you pair a RDM and SCH together rather than a RDM and BRD... or a WHM and SCH over a WHM and RDM or BRD. Even SCH and BRD would be functional. If you add some BLM, RDM, and WHM self-target buff spells(Conserve MP, hMP, Fast Cast) that can only be made AoE with SCH you got some nice strategies forming. Maybe let that DRK make an AoE Dread Spikes? The potential becomes incredible.

This would actually be very different than the type of support jobs we are getting now. Corsair was basically a DD BRD who used abilities instead of spells(songs). While the type of bonuses he gave was sometimes unique, this something entirely different, like Dancer giving buffs through enfeebles. Clone it would be not.

[Xanthe]

What do you guys recommend as a SCH headpiece? I used to gimp it up in vermy but I'm almost 72 and can wear errant, and I realized I don't have any head pieces (all I have is af, morrigan, demon helm etc). Yigit isn't an option due to 4x a week salvage, and all I can really think of is elite beret.

Sounds silly, but maybe Errant Hat or Mahatma Hat? Possibly Carline Ribbon (possible appraisal from Bellerophon's Bliss). But probably Elite Beret +1 if you need the skill.

[Not Kuno]

I don't need the skill but I refuse to wear ugly gear (ie those ugly ass pointy hats). The ribbon doesn't seem that useful and kinda hard to get, too. :/

[Kyreth]

regen I - IV, regenra I-III
refresh
maybe regain
stackable helixes
elemental debuff line 1 and exclusiv line 2 (for more -AGI -INT etc. and DoT)
enhanced weather buff duration
elemental weakness debuffs
a 10 min ability that buffs a DoT spell (may it be refresh, regen helixes, or elemental debuffs)

refresh

Argh! FFS, stop trying to clone RDM. They weren't going to give us Refreshga with RDM/SCH, they're not going to give you Refreshga with SCH/whatever. I would like to see Scholars being the DoT masters. Multiple helixes, elemental debuffs, and they get subjobbable access to the Dia II/Bio II line anyway. If there was any spell I'd give Scholar natively from RDM, it'd be Phalanx II. Scholars being able to buff entire "units" (parties) is Scholarly, and a meritable spell at 75 isn't going to stomp any toes in RDMsville. In addition, improve the AoE effect with Accession. If it's a player, in range, hit them with the spell, barring blockaid. You, me, Joe newbie, whatever. Scholar being able to mass Silena or Protect IV-ga a Dynamis battle or HNM? Ability of win for the job.

just with this changes I would be very happy as SCH. hell yeah still no crowd control, it would still be sub dependend. but I have at least some options to debuff mobs to help the pt/alliance (elemental line 2, elemental weakness debuffs), regen options for slow healing when AoE hits people etc. and on top of that I still have my stratagems for AoE instant healing/stronger nukeing etc, when shit hits the fan.

Some help of strategem charges, and subjobs can give crowd control. AoE Sleep, Gravity, Bind would all do the job- but Scholar needs more charges than they get. As is, it's terribly limited.

[BRP]

(ie those ugly ass pointy hats)

But that's the reason people level BLM!

[Siatdiat]

(ie those ugly ass pointy hats)

But that's the reason people level BLM!

No BRP, they level it to wear the cool migrant worker lvl 60 AF hat.

[Not Kuno]

(ie those ugly ass pointy hats)

But that's the reason people level BLM!

I like blm hat, I meant the errant/optical hat model. Looks like pure shit and may as well have dunce written on it.

[Lordwafik]

I love how people say "We need unique spells to make us wanted at end game". Guys, they gave us 16 unique spells and we're still not really wanted, they gave corsair 18 unique spells and they still aren't that much wanted.

If you want to be a wanted mage in end game, you need to fill a specific role. As of now, the roles are : Melee, Tank, Magical DD, battery, healer.

Melee : no
Tank : no
Magical DD : helix can't outperform a BLM's nuke, heavy DoT my ass.
Battery : Nope.
Healer : A healer without a single thing to help other people aside from cures. Weather effects are trash in a healer's perspective.



I don't see what's so wrong about giving SCH refresh, it won't be a RDM clone, it'll help SCH be wanted in manaburn parties and situations. So long as you have a SCH in a blm pt giving them weather (which also needs an adjustment on duration, they should be able to be kept on 6 people fulltime), why is letting them refresh the blms so bad? Seriously. They don't have haste or enfeebles so they're not going to take the RDM's role in a TP burn, and last I checked, melees don't need refresh, so RDM is still safe. The pts with BLMs SMNs PLDs for exp would need a refresh and not necessarily a haste, so a SCH would slide perfectly in there.

[Ryushii]

I love how people say "We need unique spells to make us wanted at end game". Guys, they gave us 16 unique spells and we're still not really wanted, they gave corsair 18 unique spells and they still aren't that much wanted.

If you want to be a wanted mage in end game, you need to fill a specific role. As of now, the roles are : Melee, Tank, Magical DD, battery, healer.

Melee : no
Tank : no
Magical DD : helix can't outperform a BLM's nuke, heavy DoT my ass.
Battery : Nope.
Healer : A healer without a single thing to help other people aside from cures. Weather effects are trash in a healer's perspective.



I don't see what's so wrong about giving SCH refresh, it won't be a RDM clone, it'll help SCH be wanted in manaburn parties and situations. So long as you have a SCH in a blm pt giving them weather (which also needs an adjustment on duration, they should be able to be kept on 6 people fulltime), why is letting them refresh the blms so bad? Seriously. They don't have haste or enfeebles so they're not going to take the RDM's role in a TP burn, and last I checked, melees don't need refresh, so RDM is still safe. The pts with BLMs SMNs PLDs for exp would need a refresh and not necessarily a haste, so a SCH would slide perfectly in there.

The problem comes with Refresh if the Scholar gets Haste or Regain or something, then RDM's usability has gone out the window. Our only other special, unique trait is our enfeebling ability. Would you honestly put more than 1 RDM in an alliance if SCH had Refresh? Probably not.

[Genosync]

I love how people say "We need unique spells to make us wanted at end game". Guys, they gave us 16 unique spells and we're still not really wanted, they gave corsair 18 unique spells and they still aren't that much wanted.

If you want to be a wanted mage in end game, you need to fill a specific role. As of now, the roles are : Melee, Tank, Magical DD, battery, healer.

Melee : no
Tank : no
Magical DD : helix can't outperform a BLM's nuke, heavy DoT my ass.
Battery : Nope.
Healer : A healer without a single thing to help other people aside from cures. Weather effects are trash in a healer's perspective.



I don't see what's so wrong about giving SCH refresh, it won't be a RDM clone, it'll help SCH be wanted in manaburn parties and situations. So long as you have a SCH in a blm pt giving them weather (which also needs an adjustment on duration, they should be able to be kept on 6 people fulltime), why is letting them refresh the blms so bad? Seriously. They don't have haste or enfeebles so they're not going to take the RDM's role in a TP burn, and last I checked, melees don't need refresh, so RDM is still safe. The pts with BLMs SMNs PLDs for exp would need a refresh and not necessarily a haste, so a SCH would slide perfectly in there.

Giving them Refresh creates a Red Mage clone, because then all they would need is some form of Haste type spell and they're nearly the same as a Red Mage.

Even giving them things like Flurry or whatever else you're talking about, they'd have to overpower said spells for people to want to use a scholar over a Red Mage anyway.

Scholar needs to be placed at the front lines as a high damage job based on DoT capabilities, and the ability to oversee the battlefield (i.e. lower strategem recast timers, give them specific spells available under only one art). That's how Scholar has been played up in cutscenes. They use strategic thinking in order to affect what's going on. Lower strategem recast timers, increase the potency/accuracy/change calculation of all the helices, and make more spells available. Those three things would create a non-Black Mage, non-Red Mage clone, that is completely and totally capable of standing on its own in our Refresh/Haste happy world.

[Lordwafik]

The problem comes with Refresh if the Scholar gets Haste or Regain or something, then RDM's usability has gone out the window. Our only other special, unique trait is our enfeebling ability. Would you honestly put more than 1 RDM in an alliance if SCH had Refresh? Probably not.

Yes, because SCH still wouldnt have Haste/Slow2/Para2/Blind*/Dispel*/-na spells* etc. It wouldn't throw RDM out the window at all, RDM still has all that, and the ability to never rest for MP due to convert, etc.

RDM as of now is a great melee battery, because they can maintain themselves whilst maintaining others. SCH isn't, nor are they a good mage battery, because they can't even maintain themselves

*Not all at once



I wonder, if WHMs bitched that RDM got haste? It's not the first time more than 1 job shares a nice spell.

Giving them Refresh creates a Red Mage clone, because then all they would need is some form of Haste type spell and they're nearly the same as a Red Mage.

With that line of thinking, WHM is almost the same as RDM because they get haste as well as their own little nichey spells.

PLD can already get 3/tic refresh now a day without a RDM, it's no longer an OMG REFRESH!!!! Issue anymore.

[Not Kuno]

Personally I don't want refresh and will never use it if I have to refresh people. >.>

[Seigfried Of Pandy]

idk i tend to disagree i think sch does need some more unique spells/JA to set it apart. yeah could buff sch with haste refresh etc and make it viable but while i wont say a RDM clone it would essentially have the same role as a rdm.

[Meian]

In normal parties, RDM is just seen as Refresh really (at least on my server). If SCH gets Refresh, it WILL be a RDM clone for xp parties.

[BRP]

Filling a RDM role, meaning being able to take their spot, is a very good thing. Being a clone is rather different. I know I'm sounding like a broken record at this point, but Ballad stratagem would be less tedious than refreshing several people, you could hit it and just continue doing SCH things. That is, meaning it'll last for four minutes.

[Lordwafik]

In normal parties, RDM is just seen as Refresh really (at least on my server). If SCH gets Refresh, it WILL be a RDM clone for xp parties.

I really do hope SCH gets refresh, because then RDMs might actually have to haste people to keep their invite

[Damane]

refresh

Argh! FFS, stop trying to clone RDM. They weren't going to give us Refreshga with RDM/SCH, they're not going to give you Refreshga with SCH/whatever. I would like to see Scholars being the DoT masters. Multiple helixes, elemental debuffs, and they get subjobbable access to the Dia II/Bio II line anyway. If there was any spell I'd give Scholar natively from RDM, it'd be Phalanx II. Scholars being able to buff entire "units" (parties) is Scholarly, and a meritable spell at 75 isn't going to stomp any toes in RDMsville. In addition, improve the AoE effect with Accession. If it's a player, in range, hit them with the spell, barring blockaid. You, me, Joe newbie, whatever. Scholar being able to mass Silena or Protect IV-ga a Dynamis battle or HNM? Ability of win for the job.

[quote:ju09ek2i]just with this changes I would be very happy as SCH. hell yeah still no crowd control, it would still be sub dependend. but I have at least some options to debuff mobs to help the pt/alliance (elemental line 2, elemental weakness debuffs), regen options for slow healing when AoE hits people etc. and on top of that I still have my stratagems for AoE instant healing/stronger nukeing etc, when shit hits the fan.

Some help of strategem charges, and subjobs can give crowd control. AoE Sleep, Gravity, Bind would all do the job- but Scholar needs more charges than they get. As is, it's terribly limited.[/quote:ju09ek2i]

a rdm does not only live by refresh, gees, rdms have so many unique spells and abilitys. convert, dispel, A+ enfeeb skill, gravity, sleep, haste etc.

your stratagems WONT save you when shit hits the fan and you have the wrong subjob . SCH can barely manage any sitiuation by itself, it all depends on which subjob you selcted... if you ask me thats a pritty big weakpoint imho and is the result of the minimalistic spelllist a scholar has.

[Genosync]

In normal parties, RDM is just seen as Refresh really (at least on my server). If SCH gets Refresh, it WILL be a RDM clone for xp parties.

I really do hope SCH gets refresh, because then RDMs might actually have to haste people to keep their invite

why make a job that can fill the same spot as a red mage instead of making a completely new job and tweaking it to be a completely different option (read: like how crazy dancer is) in an XP pt?

seriously, if SE can create something massively useful like dancer, I'm sure they can do something for scholar given some more time.

unless CoP team made Scholar, and then we're all fucking doomed anyway. (and yes, I'm still allowed to joke on CoP team for not making my cap good enough)