Scholar Discussion attempt #2

[Ryushii]

Yes, because SCH still wouldnt have Haste/Slow2/Para2/Blind*/Dispel*/-na spells* etc. It wouldn't throw RDM out the window at all, RDM still has all that, and the ability to never rest for MP due to convert, etc.

SCH can get Dispel subbed, and having dispel or not is not going to make or break a party invite in most areas. Haste is kind of a big deal for parties, but if you just need a support for a WHM, then SCH would be way better because it can also do considerably more damage than a RDM. As for Convert, SCH has more MP and better MP conservation than RDM, even if it can't match RDM's mp efficiency (who can?) if BLM and WHM can survive, SCH will be fine.

The problem comes when you take your arguments into alliance fights:
If SCH gets Refresh, RDM is out of the alliance, save 1 spot for someone to enfeeble/phalanx2/dispel. The rest of the RDMs will get to sit outside of the alliance and cure/haste people.

I wonder, if WHMs bitched that RDM got haste? It's not the first time more than 1 job shares a nice spell. With that line of thinking, WHM is almost the same as RDM because they get haste as well as their own little nichey spells.

WHM also have Cure V, RII/III, -na spells, bar-element spells, Protectra/Shellra V, etc. Yeah, WHM aren't as self sufficient nor as nice for melee burns as RDM, but they have their place in parteis and in end game that one spell is not going to bumb out.

PLD can already get 3/tic refresh now a day without a RDM, it's no longer an OMG REFRESH!!!! Issue anymore.

The fact remains that Refresh is easily the most defining spell for the RDM job. Yes, BRD can refresh, but it cannot support a party the way a RDM can. If SCH got Refresh, then they could fill that RDM spot, and then could essentially take over that spot in many end game activities.

[Gilthas]

^^ Because RDMs having to compete with another job for a spot in the alliance is inherently bad.

[Meian]

In normal parties, RDM is just seen as Refresh really (at least on my server). If SCH gets Refresh, it WILL be a RDM clone for xp parties.

I really do hope SCH gets refresh, because then RDMs might actually have to haste people to keep their invite

The last part so true

Nearing 66 and every other healer with me in the party has been garbage. Multitasking especially not curing expecting me to do their job for them heh (even WHMs). Had a nice WHM the other day who didn't have Light Staff and was curing with Dark Staff the entire time once a blue moon after I healed the tanks up.

Oh well, I don't mind healing just when the main healers just sit back with their 80%+ mp the entire time and only hasting themselves

[Isiolia]

If SCH got Refresh you'd just have a bunch of crappy ones riding it to 75 just like you have with RDM.

Frankly SCH would need to stand out a bit more than that though. Several jobs have Refresh already, and they all offer a party more than a SCH does now.

[Aemora]

58-64 - Fossorial Flee in Aydeewa Subterrane. These can be tough. I use gravity/bind to deal with it. Rarely camped, very good EXP with sanction.

Sweet jesus, I tried these, and omfg ANNOYING without Stoneskin. Really annoying. REALLLLLLLLLLLLY annoying. I'm at (F-9) on the top map, room full of Chigoes with 2 Great Ameratats and a Qiqirn Enterpriser in the alley-type thing... Enough room to kite to kill, but is there anywhere where there are loads of Chigoes and no Ameratats? :<

exp is pwn tho...

[Valacar]

I've read this thread pretty much all the way through as SCH is my first mage job to 75; it was a great place for technical information especially with a few longtime BLMs posting, who had a better feel for the pros and cons of the job. That said, it certainly has waning use when the prevailing discussion is how to improve SCH, and that somewhere in people's minds, refresh would marginalize RDM.

RDM is, without a doubt, the most insanely broken job in this game. I'm not talking about Avesta-esque solo accomplishments either, or anything unique to only elite RDMs. I do a lot of HNMing, and from low-man scenarios, to dynamis events, to grand dragons, to ground kings, to JoL, RDM is so easily the most wanted job (in general), it's sickening. 6 RDMs can demolish Fafnir, RDMs are the best enfeebler, RDMs are the best endgame tank for most HNMs, RDMs are the best support job (if you had to choose only one job to support your melee, it's RDM), and heck, RDMs can even do solid damage on NMs that don't require elemental skill much past 300. They can do this all while sustaining themselves, too.

If SCH is to find a niche in the very competitive mage world, they either need a unique (useful) role in this game, or they need to creep in on the territory of the scenarios we already value so much in FFXI. I don't know if it's refresh, or lower stratagem recasts, or native enfeebling spells, or an A- skill rating with the appropriate arts active, or more available gear (well, more gear is certainly part of it), or shorter weather recast times, or greater damage/MP ratio for the helix spells, but something has to change. That said, it almost certainly will NOT come at the expense of RDM desirability.

Refresh to SCH would change very little for RDM in the endgame scene. It would make SCH a viable option to replace RDMs in the BLM party, perhaps, as BLMs don't need haste so desperately (though it's still nice). Without detailing too many scenarios and possible changes to SCH and how that would impact other mage jobs, there are a number of key roles that mages play in this game, and right now SCH can't even equal the most useless of mage niches (BLM damage). The territory of other mages, and especially RDMs, is safe from SCH as long as SE doesn't entirely match their skill and spell set, which is unlikely for RDMs anyway (convert, refresh, haste, stoneskin, blink, slow II, phalanx II, para II, broad gear options, gravity, fast cast, etc.).

Every update SE provides, my LS mates and I have a good laugh as they're busy nerfing WARs and MNKs or adjusting 2hander damage or adding Repose for WHMs while the most perverse inequality continues to slide under the radar. We have Gjallarhorns and Aegis too, so it's not like our PLDs aren't tanking to the best of their ability to compete with RDMs.

I hope we can move past the RDM vs. SCH debate.

[Beckwin]

I'm thinking to start, SE could:

1. lower stratagem timers. maybe AF or merits could accomplish this, but a basic timer reduction would be good too.
2. allow Helices to completely bypass magic defense(MDB, I guess it isn't too much to ask to just dispel Shell). this would make SCH stand out on magic resistant mobs giving them greater endgame potency without having to create an across the board buff to the actual base damage of the helices, which could ramp up their DoT damage too much for normal mobs. So basically, you'd see the 150 dmg helices on JoL and Cerb/Khim. On Wyrms it'd be cool too and encourage not sleeping the damn things.
3. let Helices stack like the burn/choke/frost line of enfeebles, or at least 2 at once.
4. Stoneskin. There's nothing really exclusive or high-level about the spell, and mage jobs need some kind of native defense.

Good read, btw. I'm not heavy into mage jobs but I'm interested in what SCH can do and how it plays, so this thread has been helpful.

[BRP]

3. let Helices stack like the burn/choke/frost line of enfeebles, or at least 2 at once.

At the very least, let three SCHs stack them like this if three of them at once is considered too strong.

[Beckwin]

That's kind of where I was going with it. This would allow more than one sch to be useful in the alliance from a DD standpoint- they'd each focus on a specific helix, using the stratagem to buff it or whatever.

[Araius]

You know what might be potentially nice and a very minor thing they could add to helices, would be a threnody-like effect to them. Say with an Water Helix effect, it also gives a -50 to Thunder resistance, further supporting their role as a BLM's best friend. Obviously I'd prefer other, bigger adjustments (mostly native Blink and Stoneskin, and either more charges or quicker recharge time) but I'm trying to think of more minor adjustments that would at least make having a 75 SCH around viable for some end-game activities.

[Kaeko]

58-64 - Fossorial Flee in Aydeewa Subterrane. These can be tough. I use gravity/bind to deal with it. Rarely camped, very good EXP with sanction.

Sweet jesus, I tried these, and omfg ANNOYING without Stoneskin. Really annoying. REALLLLLLLLLLLLY annoying. I'm at (F-9) on the top map, room full of Chigoes with 2 Great Ameratats and a Qiqirn Enterpriser in the alley-type thing... Enough room to kite to kill, but is there anywhere where there are loads of Chigoes and no Ameratats? :<

exp is pwn tho...

The Lionheart guide had these. There is a camp with 7 Chigeos and nothing but Qiqirn (non-aggro) there. There's also a zone directly behind the camp. Here's the original guy that came up with this spot. Including maps to get to camp, very helpful.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html ... =30;page=1

I generally aggro pulled then immediately used Gravity. If you time it right, it will go off well before the first Chigeo attack (it waits a bit after aggroing initially). I usually only get hit once - only immediately after landing gravity. After that it's Bind and then nuke while kiting back towards the zone. If gravity resists, I immediately zoned until I was higher lvl.

[evilpaul]

Will a player under the effect of Sandstorm randomly take -10% damage from a monster's Thunder spells as with "true" weather, btw?

As for things that could be added to make it better besides (Blink/SS that SE says is being considered already)...

1) I'll second either Refresh or Haste, but not both. I'd prefer Refresh, personally. Adding either would justify a slot in an Ally, imho. It would still be subjob dependent as far as what SCH would be best at doing at the sametime though.

2) Merits should include something like -5 seconds on Arts recasts. To make the job more flexible.

3) AF should have a "Occassionally Conservers Stratagem Charges" trait on it. This should be meritable as well to get up to maybe a ~45% savings rate; similar to Ninja Tool Expertise.

4) An "Enhances Arts Effects" which should probably be on the AF or meritable. Let's you get A-/+ range on your active Arts, but penalizes the other with an E rating.

5) Group two merits should have two new meritable stratagems that people will complain "they should have just given these to us at level 70 or something" like RDM group two merits.

[Sho]

My solution for them is for SE to give SCH Refresh, and them give RDM Refresh II (@4-5 tick, cannot stack with Refresh). At least from there, SCH would still be balanced from not having Haste (at the expense of having Refreshga), and RDM could keep their decent PT invites with their Haste spell.

[Genosync]

My solution for them is for SE to give SCH Refresh, and them give RDM Refresh II (@4-5 tick, cannot stack with Refresh). At least from there, SCH would still be balanced from not having Haste (at the expense of having Refreshga), and RDM could keep their decent PT invites with their Haste spell.

breaks the game

[Kyreth]

My solution for them is for SE to give SCH Refresh, and them give RDM Refresh II (@4-5 tick, cannot stack with Refresh). At least from there, SCH would still be balanced from not having Haste (at the expense of having Refreshga), and RDM could keep their decent PT invites with their Haste spell.

Fitting Scholar into things by mudflationing RDM does not win- at that point, every other MP recovery job in the game goes into bitch/whine mode for being "nerfed" by RDM being boosted.

Mind you, Scholar could be doing just fine if it wasn't so limited in it's key ability. Scholars metamagic their spells, spellcasters cast pretty much constantly, but Scholars at their best can only modify their weaker spell selection with tricks a few times every five minutes.

Flat-out doubling or even tripling Strategem charges wouldn't be a bad start. What good are nice toys if you can barely play with them in a PT? If they're getting MP recovery, it needs to be different- something that shifts the balance.

I vote Osmose. DoT MP drain from a single target, splits MP drained to entire PT. It's "refreshlike", but reflects Scholarly "battle-shifting magic", rather than a simple buff you can slap on anytime, and it's a DoT, which goes along with the whole helix thing. (Bonus if it can be Veritased for increased drain). It'd work as a BLM spell as well, but Scholar might well need it more.

[BRP]

Ballad and Refresh stack, March and Haste stack. So even if there were any possibility giving SCH their own versions of songs through stratagems leading to SCH taking RDM role, it certainly wouldn't limit RDM+SCH therefor still giving RDM a slot. Now could SCH with such things threaten BRD's spot? Haha, no. But it certainly would be nice for when a BRD doesn't want to join a manaburn(which is always) and when a BRD isn't seeking or willing to join your party(which is common enough). Only conflicting with BRD, SCH would fit nicely with COR, WHM, BLM, and RDM. And I probably won't mention it again since this is like my third or fourth time saying it.

[Damane]

Ballad and Refresh stack, March and Haste stack. So even if there were any possibility giving SCH their own versions of songs through stratagems leading to SCH taking RDM role, it certainly wouldn't limit RDM+SCH therefor still giving RDM a slot. Now could SCH with such things threaten BRD's spot? Haha, no. But it certainly would be nice for when a BRD doesn't want to join a manaburn(which is always) and when a BRD isn't seeking or willing to join your party(which is common enough). Only conflicting with BRD, SCH would fit nicely with COR, WHM, BLM, and RDM. And I probably won't mention it again since this is like my third or fourth time saying it.

songs have nothing to do with SCH.... leave ballad where it is in, in the hands of a musician

[BRP]

BRDs inspire others with music. SCH give strategies to others. Classically it's not a stretch.

[TeancumMemsochet]

Will a player under the effect of Sandstorm randomly take -10% damage from a monster's Thunder spells as with "true" weather, btw?

From the VERY, and I stress VERY, limited testing I did on the Magmatic Eruca in Mount Zhayolm with a PLD I would have to say yes. I kept Rainstorm on him most of the time, and he did resist more Incinerates, but still took 800HP Incinerates(yes, Barfire was up). The dmg difference was about the same as the increase to cure pot w/ Aurastorm.

[Shinsei a la Odin]

Will a player under the effect of Sandstorm randomly take -10% damage from a monster's Thunder spells as with "true" weather, btw?

From the VERY, and I stress VERY, limited testing I did on the Magmatic Eruca in Mount Zhayolm with a PLD I would have to say yes. I kept Rainstorm on him most of the time, and he did resist more Incinerates, but still took 800HP Incinerates(yes, Barfire was up). The dmg difference was about the same as the increase to cure pot w/ Aurastorm.

Hmm, do Obi's effect resists? would be nice to have Firestorm on a tank w/ Obi at Tiamat.